Next Version Update Scheduled for Late July! (06/08/2009)

[Malacite]

Re: Next Version Update Scheduled for Late July! (06/08/2009)

Ya know, and this is just a crazy thought but...

What if BLM (and only BLM) got a trait or something that actually makes nukes stronger against weaker enemies similar to how melee do? I mean I don't see how it wouldn't be easier to burn a weaker enemy over a tougher one. But then if they do that we may end up with people QQ over BLM being too strong idk.

Just a passing thought.

[nanatsu]

Re: Next Version Update Scheduled for Late July! (06/08/2009)

If the new wotg areas come w/ new mobs, they had better have some better spells for blu, if not this update then down the road, and please give us something better than regurgitation. Its a nice bindamage spell, but come on, its just a more effective version of a lower level blu spell.

All spells in the game are like that. Most (but not all) spells are a higher tier of a previous spell. Despite all of the different names that blu spells have, most of them follow that same rule also. There so many different types of 3 hit blunt damage spells that's it not even funny, each one stronger than the last. So you should be used to this by now.

[AutonomousMarkings]

Re: Next Version Update Scheduled for Late July! (06/08/2009)

If the new wotg areas come w/ new mobs, they had better have some better spells for blu, if not this update then down the road, and please give us something better than regurgitation. Its a nice bindamage spell, but come on, its just a more effective version of a lower level blu spell.

[Raydeus]

Re: Next Version Update Scheduled for Late July! (06/08/2009)

I get the impression that the shift from more group based tactics to WS spamage didn't only affect xp parties but many aspects of the game and how players worked (or stopped working) together.

It would be interesting to see what would happen if IT++ mobs were made worth the time spent killing them.

[Malacite]

Re: Next Version Update Scheduled for Late July! (06/08/2009)

PUP performs just fine against higher level enemies if you gear your automaton correctly. Most people who play the job (not all) generally don't know what they're doing. Before SE adds anymore attachments I'd rather they fix the casting AI. Good lord is the automaton a retard when it comes to magic.


SE did acknowledge that pet jobs in general are need of some buffing though as they hardly get used at end game (even SMN seems to be falling on hard times lately...)


Higher EXP rewards to make IT mobs comparable to chaining VTs would be nice. We need more EXP options, not less SE and they need to be equally efficient so as to keep crowding to a minimum. I'd love to see the old manaburns in sea come back (some ppl got as much as 50k/hour...) but I doubt SE would do that . _ . (plus it kinda contradicts my previous statement lol. Still ungodly exp tho...)

[Ketaru]

Re: Next Version Update Scheduled for Late July! (06/08/2009)

A thing to think about is that adding to party mechanics that allow for more EXP on harder mobs is that it will not only help BLM. It will also help PLDs and BLUs, for example, and other jobs (...or roles, as I will cover) who have fallen to the wayside in favor of zerg kill merits.

Take RDM for example. Many are satisfied to embrace the role it now has in merit as a Haster and Healer. While wanting to frontline was always part of the problem I had with the party situation of the game, many also saw it as a loss of the Enfeebling function of the game, where your Enfeebling spell set was effectively reduced to Dia II, a spell that a THF subbing /WHM could land. Where enfeebling starts to shine is in long, drawn out fights.

I like to say I hate constantly tooting Campaign's horn, but maybe I should just stop adding that little disclaimer. The fact is I love saying I love Campaign. It did not just create a situation where a hybrid RDM could actually be rewarded somewhat for that style of play, but it also brought about a higher level opportunity to bring enfeebling back into play. Nothing greases the wheels of killing a Campaign mob or NM more than landing the full plethora of enfeebles on it. I've even heard from some PLDs that, even given the opportunity to join a merit party, some would still prefer to Campaign because tanking is not a fool's errand there, especially with the realization that being invited to merit is often little more than a pity invite from friends.

Speaking of tanking, adding high level mobs as spectacular EXP targets would also bring hate management back to the table as parties these days typically can get away with hate management disregard because the mob often dies too fast to cause any real damage. This would mean bringing in DD jobs that actually have hate management in their tool kit to the table, with new emphasis on hate management. Think that, if PUP were just tweaked a bit so they can perform well on high level mobs, the fact that they split hate with their puppet would actually be a benefit rather than a liability.

I believe modifying EXP gain was once mentioned in an interview, but it looks like, as of now, no changes are planned for how high level parties funciton, unfortunately.

EDIT: Sorry if that sounded a little too passionate, and a call to return the game to something more archaic, but I do think it's pure hypocrisy for people to wag their fingers in disapproval of SE adding new, "easier" methods of getting EXP, as well as people exploiting astral burn parties, when the best form of getting merits involves the minimization of job function.

[Armando]

Re: Next Version Update Scheduled for Late July! (06/08/2009)

Admittedly, I'm not the source of that. Just something I read on Allakhazam so maybe it can be taken with a grain of salt. That and it was tested in Baillsta, where all sorts of rules are bent. I don't recall elemental resistance rates ever being one of them though. The exceptions were laid out in updates concerning PvP: Nukes are reduced, Sleep duration is reduced, WS range is increased, Resist traits are enhanced, players will build resistance to Sleep, Silence, and Bind over being constantly inflicted by them.

Yeah, Ninjutsu does the same thing in and out of Ballista, so do Ancient Magic and Threnodies. It was through Ballista testing that I accidentally found the base Resistance numbers for players lol. If you could find the Allakhazam link I'd really appreciate it, I like to keep track of these things.

Mal: I don't think a Conserve MP effect is necessary on MBs. I think between Evoker's Roll/Ballad, Refresh, Sanction/FoV Refresh, and the addition of /SCH, BLM already has the MP conservation it needs (technically speaking, MB already results in MP savings by providing more damage for the same MP; and /SCH could be used to drop that further.) BLM will never be able to output damage similar to a melee without ever stopping in a T-VT chaining party. I can't speak from experience but I don't think they need help against ITs in longer fights where they can actually sit and rest. I think an enmity cut is more practical.

I think a second set of elemental enfeebles would be better than a trait Armando.

Well, the same effects could be achieved with a JA. I wouldn't be surprised if SE is cooking up something similar to the WHM changes for BLM.

[Malacite]

Re: Next Version Update Scheduled for Late July! (06/08/2009)

I still think SE should raise the EXP on the really nasty IT mobs (*cough* Bibiki Bay*cough*) where you pretty much have to SC + MB to kill them in any decent time frame. Also in addition to a conserve MP effect the magic burst (if it kills the mob?) the bonus damage and magic accuracy should really be based on the tier of the spell and/or chain.

Bursting Thunder IV for example off a light chain should gain a bigger bonus than it would from fragmentation or impaction, especially if it's a long chain. I mean why should only the SC damage go up for increasingly long chains? Imagine Burst II getting that nice fat 225% damage bonus the SC gains at 5+ chains... and to keep our little BLM's safe I'm also thinking some kind of enmity reduction here.

That's BLM's other core issue. Aside from MP endurance the job just pulls too much hate at the higher levels especially on MBs. Even the best PLD & THF is going to have a rough time saving your ass from a 3000+ damage MB'd Burst II.

BLM has plenty of utility as it is for end game. Anymore and it would be broken (as much as I would LOVE to have Tier V nukes...). It's EXP parties where the job really hurts and as mentioned above a few tweaks here and there towards MP endurance and utility (party buffs, better debuffs) would really help.


I think a second set of elemental enfeebles would be better than a trait Armando. It's more DoT for one thing (ideally anyway) and in addition to lowering primary stats even further (-30 at least, come on >.>) they should also drop secondary stats. I also think BLM should freaking get Bio 3 (why the hell does RDM get it anyway with their E rated Dark skill?) but SE won't ever do that since it's a merit spell and not a scroll (thus my hatred of merited spells)

[Ketaru]

Re: Next Version Update Scheduled for Late July! (06/08/2009)

Admittedly, I'm not the source of that. Just something I read on Allakhazam so maybe it can be taken with a grain of salt. That and it was tested in Baillsta, where all sorts of rules are bent. I don't recall elemental resistance rates ever being one of them though. The exceptions were laid out in updates concerning PvP: Nukes are reduced, Sleep duration is reduced, WS range is increased, Resist traits are enhanced, players will build resistance to Sleep, Silence, and Bind over being constantly inflicted by them.

[Armando]

Re: Next Version Update Scheduled for Late July! (06/08/2009)

Where's the source on this? Not that I doubt you, it sounds reasonable. I just haven't seen any testing on it (though I haven't checked BG in quite a while.) Also, what's the duration? If it's 15 secs it wouldn't surprise me that it's being considered the same thing as Ninjutsu and Ancient Magic.

(although I've heard the Magic Evasion Down seems to help on the resistance rate on the coming skillchain).

Never seen it in action but I don't see why it wouldn't; an Enspell II of the proper element would also help reduce resist rates.

Another random Job Improvement though that also ties into all this synergy nonsense: Avatars should have Perma-Weather/Elemental Staff-like effect on the whole party when kept out (besides any other boost to their DPS SE wants to give them.) Alternatively, if SE wants to make Elementals stop sucking altogether, give Elementals the perma-weather effect, increase their casting frequency and give the SMN some control over them, and buff avatars so they TP pretty hard by default. I think it's the least they can do since you'll never be able to do absurd things with a pet like give them 70% Haste or COR rolls. Bottom line is that they need a pretty massive buff if they expect people to sacrifice some flexibility in order to let an avatar TP.

[Ketaru]

Re: Next Version Update Scheduled for Late July! (06/08/2009)

People found out how resistance down works on those? I don't know if Ninjutsu stacks with Threnodies would I would expect them to; they're separate things, Threnodies inflict a long-lasting "status," whereas the Ninjutsu effect doesn't even have a status icon and always wear off after 15 secs. The Ninjutsu effect is also guaranteed to land whereas Threnodies can get resisted.

Enspell II's inflict -10 elemental resistance and does not stack with Ninjutsu. It's underused either because of narrowmindedness, or as you pointed out, helping mages land spells doesn't seem to help nearly as much as helping meleers. RDM's Death Blossom is stlil valued more for its ability to open skillchains than its ability to deal Magic Evasion Down (although I've heard the Magic Evasion Down seems to help on the resistance rate on the coming skillchain).

[Armando]

Re: Next Version Update Scheduled for Late July! (06/08/2009)

Nah. My BLM is 20 and I mainly leveled it for Warp and as a RDM sub. I haven't even unlocked SCH, and the only reason my RDM is 40 is because I use it as a sub for PLD. I just like to research game mechanics so I recognize that a couple of things are pretty fucked up numerically (like the fact that 10% Attack Down on the mob isn't comparable to 10% Defense Down.)

Here I'm still wondering if it would really have been so broken to make Enspell II's stack with Ninjutsu and Threnodies (do these 2 even stack with each other?)

People found out how resistance down works on those? I don't know if Ninjutsu stacks with Threnodies would I would expect them to; they're separate things, Threnodies inflict a long-lasting "status," whereas the Ninjutsu effect doesn't even have a status icon and always wear off after 15 secs. The Ninjutsu effect is also guaranteed to land whereas Threnodies can get resisted.

[Ketaru]

Re: Next Version Update Scheduled for Late July! (06/08/2009)

Armando, are you a BLM? Because that's just the sort of reply I've been waiting to hear for a long while. And I'm all for giving the mages buffs that compliment each other rather than compete with each other. Here I'm still wondering if it would really have been so broken to make Enspell II's stack with Ninjutsu and Threnodies (do these 2 even stack with each other?). Refresh has always stacked with Ballad. Why not make a Choke II that inflicts Defense Down stack with Dia II?

Onto more selfish motives: Given RDM's recent adjustment that has added at least some freshness to the job, and SCH's long time adjustment that made it an interesting style of play to constantly be deciding which strategems best fit a situation...let's see what I want out of BST.
- More Jug Pets would be nice for sure.
- Make Feral Howl more accurate. It's already a Con that it is, at best, on a 5 minute timer.
- A Job Ability that would allow the pet to Cover another player if a player stands behind it.
- Pets can be SA/TA'd.
- Given that WHM's got a new spell that allowed them to take a debuff from another person, how about an ability that allows the BST to absorb a debuff that has been inflicted on the pet? So if something like Attack Down is done to the pet, the BST can absorb the Attack Down. This way, somebody with Erase can at least remove it.

As for Campaign, if there are going to be new medals, that means EXP will also be increased for people with higher medals. Perhaps now a 100-120 EXP/Minute sort of deal will now be realized?

[Armando]

Re: Next Version Update Scheduled for Late July! (06/08/2009)

most of friends go "wut?" lol as they've never even played FF1 (which is sad seeing how it's only been remade literally 10+ times)

It was good at the time but it was never that good of a game compared to most stuff that came out later.

Giving BLMs more non-nuke spells that contribute to the party's success is only part of the problem (and the lesser part at that.) I think the core issue is that BLMs won't make a comeback until fighting mobs 8-10 levels higher than you gives EXP comparable to fighting mobs 5-8 levels higher than you. A melee's performance drops radically against higher level targets. A BLM will practically do the same damage to a target of Lv.-5 as a target of Lv.+10, the only thing that changes is resists and I'm not even sure that's an issue for BLMs at the levels they stop being popular. Besides that difference in damage scaling, there's also the fact that VT mobs aren't anywhere near as conducive to skillchaining as IT mobs are. SC+MB starts to make a lot more sense when the melees just aren't capable of zerging the mob with TP spam any more. Also, reducing the enmity generated by MBs would also make Skillchaining + MB'ing earlier in a fight easier. Perhaps make nukes get hate equal to the unboosted damage they would've done?

Another issue is that the support classes barely support nukers besides providing raw MP. COR's MAB roll is already sad in a vacuum and it's a joke compared to its melee rolls. BRD doesn't provide much of anything to boost BLM's power besides Threnodies. Adding the -Magic Evasion step to DNC's routine slows down its progress with Quick Step and Box Step - buffing the BLM shouldn't get in the way of buffing the melees; the melees will always be better off being buffed. Besides that, a BLM isn't going to benefit from Aspir Samba.

I'm all for giving BLM new party-support spells - they really need to mesh with the backline better and bring more to a party than just magic damage. They should be given enhancements such that they actually work better with RDMs and SCHs instead of trying to compete with them. But let's also not overlook some of their current spells that are pretty weak. Let's not beat around the bush, Bio sucks for anything that isn't pure DoT. Dia II is the equivalent of boosting all the melee's Attack by 11%. Bio II just doesn't provide defensive benefits that outweigh that. Doubling the Attack Down potency or perhaps combining it with additional effects like 10% Slow, MAB down (think about it...Cursed Sphere) and/or Plague would give it some leverage. The side effects from elemental enfeebles are pretty meh. -13 AGI? That doesn't even outperform Gravity, and that's with max INT. -13 INT is trivial contribution to BLM's already massive nuke power at that level. Base Stats are just too trivial. These spells need to be enhanced in some way - I don't care if it's a second line of them, a Lv.50 Job Trait or some new Afflatus-like JA system, but they need to be given more direct and potent debuffs. E.g. Attack Down for Drown, Defense Down for Choke, Accuracy Down for Rasp, etc.

A nice dual buff would also be redirecting part of an MB's hate to the tank if the SC was closed with a TA'd WS. Then again, it's probably not necessary since a strong TA'd WS + Skillchain is probably all the hate a tank needs to hold hate off an MB.

EDIT: Naturally the Bio/Elemental DoT changes should be BLM-specific. Also, I think part of the "IT EXP fix" should involve providing significant EXP Chain time extensions for high level skillchains, consecutive skillchains, and high tier (relative to the party's level) nuke MBs. Clearly, as long as the process of Skillchain/Magic Burst is just perceived as a different (arguably too tedious for the rewards involved) way of moving the damage numbers around, and the losses for holding on to extra TP remain so high, people won't be all too thrilled. Give them tangible rewards that directly and obviously lead to improved EXP Chains, and they'll start to reconsider.

[Malacite]

Re: Next Version Update Scheduled for Late July! (06/08/2009)

>.> I've mentioned Temper/Steel (there's also Saber, BLM had two attack up spells) plenty of times :O


most of friends go "wut?" lol as they've never even played FF1 (which is sad seeing how it's only been remade literally 10+ times)

The question is though, how to balance out the two spells with BRD's minuet?

That'd give them a decent edge at birds and a nice spell to have in general, but there are a few other things SE could give them;

1) 50% MP return on magic bursts (base cost of the spell, before any shenanigans like Dark Arts) but you still have to actually have the MP to cast said spell. This would go a long way towards reviving skill chain + MB.

2) Regain would have really been nice for BLM if it wasn't a white magic spell, but SE could always change this (screw Titania >_>)

3) Maybe give BLM plague or curse? Now granted, both these spells would probably make a lot more sense on DRK but DRK's riding pretty pimp these days.