Battle System Improvements (02/22/2008)

[Feba]

Re: Battle System Improvements (02/22/2008)

BBQ: Get out of this thread. You don't understand squat, which while impressive for how long you've been playing FFXI, makes you extremely annoying.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Battle System Improvements (02/22/2008)

(I honestly don't know where you get the idea that it's flawed, or any more flawed than your own argument).

Flaws began when "March isn't Haste" started being uttered. If you're going to tell me March is not a Haste, I'm going to give up hope for any intelligence in this discussion. Its not really anyone's problem but yours if you can't distinguish Flash from Haste by duration and potency effect alone.

Then I'll open this can of worms. How on earth is BRD broken?

Its a job so blindingly awesome that everyone levels it for merits and nobody wants to be one at endgame. You become so awesome you lose your name and are just called "Bard" and fought over in alliances like an object, yet with any other job people seem capable of learning your name. You get stuck with the BLM PT as a manabucket, sometimes never playing anything but fucking ballads all day. Meanwhile, the COR's out of the sideline, much better capable of handling a BLM PT but nobody bothers to learn what it does. We could put the BRD where it specializes, with the melees and tanks, but I suppose the chance of a COR/BRD getting anything less than 4 MP a tick on the BLMs is far too risky. I mean, its not like BLMs carry gobs of +hMP gear or anything

Aside: BRD could actually stand to become quite liberated in endgame if people weren't so cheap and flabbergasted by the pricetag on COR. It would really open BRDs up to doing what they specialize it - and mage support has never been thier strongest point.

[Mhurron]

Re: Battle System Improvements (02/22/2008)

But I get flamed whenever I bring up that I think BRD is broken

Then I'll open this can of worms. How on earth is BRD broken?

[Lmnop]

Re: Battle System Improvements (02/22/2008)

...And getting my friend's SMN to 75 was a pain in the ass. With me only having WAR to offer, and him having BRD 75 already, there were no layouts we could make (even layouts that already had a BRD) where he didn't feel he would be doing more good for the party as being BRD #2. Whenever 2 of the same job is better than job diversity, there's an issue.

But I get flamed whenever I bring up that I think BRD is broken, so I'll instead say that shows a lot of what's wrong with SMN.

And no, I don't think SMN parties can get the exp I get in my tardburn layouts.

----

But higher MP cost doesn't help SMN. If anything, they need less MP cost. More things for staying power. If they're going to be a job that can buff and DD at the same time, they should be decent with at least one of them (Corsair stepped in and filled these shoes, though). Granted, I think the biggest issue with SMN is that no parties actually use them as this (just doing nothing but resting for 1 minute, then doing 2x BPs and resting for the next minute would no doubt be better than how they're currently used), but it's still not as good as another dedicated DD or another dedicated buffer.

This thread has been off topic for 5 pages.

Oh, one more thing: I honestly feel PUP is less broken than SMN. If people knew how to deal with PUPs, and if PUPs knew how to vary their roles (BLUs could benefit a lot from this, too), it would at the very least, be seen as valuable as a War or something.

[Karinya]

Re: Battle System Improvements (02/22/2008)

I may not have hit the top levels of SMN, but you don't have to to realize there's issues with the job. I've been around enough 75 SMN's to know too, that while they do find it fun at 75 they all hated leveling it and not getting the good pacts until 65+. Even then, the lv 70 BP's consume way too much MP when melee can do comparable if not outright better damage with 100 TP and much, much more frequently.

Which ones are the "good" pacts? The ones that do the uber damage, of course! SMN couldn't possibly be designed as something *other* than a primary DD - that would make it "broken"!

Face it, SMN is just not the job you think it is or the job you want it to be. That doesn't mean it's not good at what it *does* do.

I do not care for summoning for 1 stupid BP then going back to WHM v.2.

If you think all BPs that don't do 1000+ damage are "stupid", SMN is not the job for you. Play something else and don't try to break what isn't broken.

(P.S. Two BPs. Welcome to 2006.)

SE has admitted to this issue, and said they will do something about it. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has a lot more fun keeping their avatars out and wants to see them kick some serious ass. Shit, I would not care if they actually consumed more MP, so long as they gained a substantial power boost (something I've suggested before.)

No matter how many times it's pointed out to you, you just refuse to get the point that "kicking some serious ass" is not all (or even primarily, in most content) what SMN is about. FFXI SMN is not FFV SMN, and it's not ever going to be. Play the job it *is* or STFU.

If you really want a job that turns your MP into huge amounts of damage, I'm sure you can manage to unlock BLM.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: Battle System Improvements (02/22/2008)

I may not have hit the top levels of SMN, but you don't have to to realize there's issues with the job. I've been around enough 75 SMN's to know too, that while they do find it fun at 75 they all hated leveling it and not getting the good pacts until 65+. Even then, the lv 70 BP's consume way too much MP when melee can do comparable if not outright better damage with 100 TP and much, much more frequently.

I can no doubt gear up as WAR, go into a merit party, and do far better damage just casually meleeing and spamming WSs every time I hit 100 TP than a SMN would. However, SMN can do thing I could never dream of doing as a WAR.

Out of those melee jobs that you were referring to, how many of them can you take 5 or 6 players of that job and expect to beat Carmine Dobsonfly? Or Ouryu in CoP 4-2?

Your complaints might be easier to read if you weren't constantly using exaggerative language in every post. But when you say things like "SMN is broken", it's hard to take those posts seriously. Broken means that something is so hideously overpowered that it is too good compared to the alternatives (e.g. you could make the case that NIN sub is broken), or that something is so hideously underpowered that it is practically never useful to consider over an alternative (e.g. you could make the case that PUP overall is broken).

However, just because players find that a job is boring to level does not make it broken.

[Malacite]

Re: Battle System Improvements (02/22/2008)

I may not have hit the top levels of SMN, but you don't have to to realize there's issues with the job. I've been around enough 75 SMN's to know too, that while they do find it fun at 75 they all hated leveling it and not getting the good pacts until 65+. Even then, the lv 70 BP's consume way too much MP when melee can do comparable if not outright better damage with 100 TP and much, much more frequently.

I do not care for summoning for 1 stupid BP then going back to WHM v.2. SE has admitted to this issue, and said they will do something about it. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has a lot more fun keeping their avatars out and wants to see them kick some serious ass. Shit, I would not care if they actually consumed more MP, so long as they gained a substantial power boost (something I've suggested before.)

[Saren]

Re: Battle System Improvements (02/22/2008)

Flash and blind wearing off should be uniquely identified in the chat log not because they are different things but because they stack and one person can put both on the mob so there are going to be times when you get a wear message and you won't know which wore off. I've noticed it soloing and while it doesn't usually matter that much but there are times when it does.

I would love to see AoE condensing suggested it would make a lot of things easier to follow. Searching through the chat log in Dynamis for who was in range for protect/shell is difficult even with a lot of filters and means I can't be watching the newest messages. Also as whm I really need to see what special actions people are doing and bard buff spam definitely gets in the way of following the chat log.

I'd really like to see more information on things like BPs, blue spells and Cor abilities too. Perhaps also a few extra chat filters, being able to see other peoples enfeebling effects hit and wear off the mob would make it much easier for smn and blu to be part of enfeebling while still having reliable enfeebles on the mob

[Feba]

Re: Battle System Improvements (02/22/2008)

our status bars would be loaded with different icons and we'd probably lose track of which meant what.

GUI modders disagree.

[Balfree]

Re: Battle System Improvements (02/22/2008)

Still going on about that?... daymn.

[Armando]

Re: Battle System Improvements (02/22/2008)

BBQ: No matter how much you think you're right or want to be right, Flash is not Blind, unless you can show that Blind decays over time. And even if they do behave identically, Flash is used with a different purpose in mind. Even if it were correct, saying that Flash is the same as Blind is as practical as saying Utsusemi is the same as Blink. Same effect? Sure, you could sort of argue that. Same thing? No.

Stop being so stubborn. Everyone knows it'd be stupid as hell to get "Itazura's Haste effect wears off" when March wears off, or "Itazura's Refresh effect wears off" when Ballad wears. Just because they do the same thing doesn't mean that their terms are interchangeable for every in-game purpose. The chat log is there to inform. If I have both effects, one of them wears off, and the chat log can't tell me which wore off, THEN THE CHAT LOG IS FAILING AT ITS PURPOSE.

I'm not arguing for the sake of doing so, but because half of the argument presented is flawed.

Flawed or not (I honestly don't know where you get the idea that it's flawed, or any more flawed than your own argument), there is a clear and obvious usefulness to making distinction between the effects. On the other hand, I don't see the usefulness to your side of the argument, other than possibly saving SE some work. There is no benefit for the player to the sort of ambiguity involved in calling things that have the same effect the same thing.

Really, if we asked SE to make all these petty distinctions, our status bars would be loaded with different icons and we'd probably lose track of which meant what. Best to keep it simple sometimes, I'm sure these guys have more than enough work.

No, the icons work just fine. If I go over them, the one for Berserk says "Berserk" and the one for Attack Boost says "Attack Boost."

You can argue the pros and cons of 6 lines of the same effect hitting a different target vs 1 line displaying six targets all you want, that's not really that important.

[Feba]

Re: Battle System Improvements (02/22/2008)

How about letting you get merit points back as EXP, but not as merit points? That way, if you decide to level another job, or if your 75 is about to delevel, you can put the points to use, but not towards other merit points.


of course there would need to be some limits in place to keep people from meripo burning their low level jobs to high levels, but still.

[Ziero]

Re: Battle System Improvements (02/22/2008)

>. > I'd just like to note that the reason I bitch profusely about SMN is because I've been on the game since launch, I have played the job to 33 on my taru TYVM and find it fundamentally broken. SE has admitted this publicly on their website no less, and said they will address it. My problem is when?

Look at how long it took them to fix DRG for Christ sake @_@


Back on topic, yes, please fix the status icons/notices. How about changing Ninjutsu to have it's own debuff icon and have it stackable with magic?

Yes, that would be seriously powerful with a NIN BRD and Mage present, but outside of merits and end game that doesn't happen terribly often.

Lastly, are they ever going to change the merit system to refund points? Excuse me for not wanting to blow hours upon hours just to test out something to see if I like it or not.

Getting the job to 33 is barely scratching it's potential.

Ninjutsu debuffs and Rdm debuffs don't stack not because of some error, but because they're the same exact effect. It was done intentionally as they have different names and are cast with different restrictions, but accomplish the same exact thing.

And the Merit system is the way it is to allow players some uniquness inherient to their characters while at the same time letting them keep the option to modify what they have done, but at a price. Merits should not be treated like a piece of gear or a sub job, to be changed at a whim.

2) I'll use RDM as my example here. Going into an assault run, say lebross PSC, and I want Bio 3. Then later, I need Slow II maxed out for sky or what have you. Well, am I the only who thinks having to undo 90,000 EXP worth of work and then earning another 90,000 is a bit obscene?

I mean shit, we're free to play around with everything else, so why is it merits have to be such a pain in the ass? SE can't seriously be that worried about people quiting in droves because suddenly they have one less end game activity to do (that's not even fun and is really just a mind-numbing chore)

You're given the choice of either unlocking multiple spells or putting all your effort into one. It makes you, as a player, able to make a character that's just a little different then that guy with the same job, the same gear, the same race and even the same damn face. It's SE's attempt at a skill tree system, while still allowing you to keep your options open. They didn't want Merits to be something that could just be thrown around at a whim like gear or Subjobs, they wanted them to be something that you had to put thought and effort into before going through with your choice. And even allowing the option to erase that choice is a big bonus to the system. Though I certainly wouldn't say partial refunds of points would be a bad thing.

That's just it - you can filter it out. What IfritnoItazura complains about is not all that terribly different from people who crab about being /checked all the time. You can filter it out, you've been able to filter it out for five years. If its a problem for you, filter it and it stops.

Its probably also just a ton easier to log the 6 lines than a single sentence accounting for those in range. The server has to check which targets were in range that recieved the buff and log it, so it probably IS easier to code it so they account for each target separately.

It's not about filtering the effects entirely, it's making it so the effects don't fill up the entire chat log when used. They still want to *see* when the effects land or wear off, but would prefer it to be done in a more compact way.

And again, I find all this "consistancy" talk humorous. "March is not Haste, March is March." What does Haste do? What does March do? Decrease delay and lower Magic recast timers. They're both Haste, March is just given in two tiers of percentages. Haste Samba is not a true Haste, it only gives reduced weapon delay without lowering recast timers. There is a distinction there.

No matter how much you disagree, Haste is NOT March and Flash is NOT Blind. The effects are similar, but they're still different from each other. If they were the same, they would not be able to stack with each other. Much like Hastga, Haste and Refueling do not stack, because they all give Haste. March is a similar but different effect.

I'm not arguing for the sake of doing so, but because half of the argument presented is flawed. You want to make a distinction between Flash and Blind, fine, but the end result is the same with different potentcies and magic types. Flash is a stronger blind with shorter duration and a signifigant enmity spike. Blind has a longer duration, weaker effect and smaller enmity generation. They both still blind and they both get the same status icon.

Really, if we asked SE to make all these petty distinctions, our status bars would be loaded with different icons and we'd probably lose track of which meant what. Best to keep it simple sometimes, I'm sure these guys have more than enough work.

Flash *already* has an icon that will appear while a mob is flashed. And unlike how Blind, Kurayami and Sandspray's blind do not stack, Flash CAN be up while a mob is Blinded and have no effect on the actual Blind effect. Just because Flash and Blind lower accuracy does not mean they're the same thing. Infact there are numerous "accuracy down" abilities that also stack with blind, and it will infact say that the mob's "Accuracy Down" effect wears off. They even have a unique Icon for the acc down status. But in the end, it does the same exact thing as Blind, yet has it's own text and icon while being able to stack with blind. That makes it a different effect from Blind...just like Flash.

Changing some Texts, especially ones that have already been fixed for the JP version, would have no negative effect on gameplay. At all.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Battle System Improvements (02/22/2008)

What the hell? You think that I, as a Warrior, feel more like my BRD is doing 6x as much work if I see 6 lines of text instead of 2? You think people don't just filter the shit out of everything but themselves anyway?

That's just it - you can filter it out. What IfritnoItazura complains about is not all that terribly different from people who crab about being /checked all the time. You can filter it out, you've been able to filter it out for five years. If its a problem for you, filter it and it stops.

Its probably also just a ton easier to log the 6 lines than a single sentence accounting for those in range. The server has to check which targets were in range that recieved the buff and log it, so it probably IS easier to code it so they account for each target separately.

If we want to get real picky about space and consistancy, I could go through the all the items in the game that screwed up items with possessive names ending in "s's," which is incorrect.

And again, I find all this "consistancy" talk humorous. "March is not Haste, March is March." What does Haste do? What does March do? Decrease delay and lower Magic recast timers. They're both Haste, March is just given in two tiers of percentages. Haste Samba is not a true Haste, it only gives reduced weapon delay without lowering recast timers. There is a distinction there.

I'm not arguing for the sake of doing so, but because half of the argument presented is flawed. You want to make a distinction between Flash and Blind, fine, but the end result is the same with different potentcies and magic types. Flash is a stronger blind with shorter duration and a signifigant enmity spike. Blind has a longer duration, weaker effect and smaller enmity generation. They both still blind and they both get the same status icon.

Really, if we asked SE to make all these petty distinctions, our status bars would be loaded with different icons and we'd probably lose track of which meant what. Best to keep it simple sometimes, I'm sure these guys have more than enough work.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: Battle System Improvements (02/22/2008)

I have an idea. What if SE made it so merits were interchangeable within their category, but could not be moved to other categories? For example, somebody who has a PLD and a BLM could alternate their merits between Enimity- and Enimity+ as needed, without suffering any penalties, but they could not take the Enimity- merits out of BLM and get Thunder Magic Potency.

You'd still end up with roughly the same problem. A PLD could put his 20 combat merits into 8 sword, 4 parry, 4 shield and 4 evasion. And then when he switches to THF, he could move the 8 sword to 8 dagger. Etc etc. There's a whole lot of flexibility just within the combat skills category.