Battle System Improvements (02/22/2008)

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Battle System Improvements (02/22/2008)

I would like to see BRD improved so its utilized more properly at endgame instead of being used for such shallow ends. Its a manabucket at endgame. COR is your guy to stick in the mage PT, I don't mind it so much because I'm better mage support than a BRD. But why must both jobs be relegated to the BLM PTs when we have great melee buffs, too?

Haven't been in endgame for that long. So far, I've seen BRD used for/in/with:
- Tank party (March for PLD/NIN's, Ballad for the back line jobs)
- Melee party (crowd control, buffs, Ballad for WHM in Dynamis, SV melee songs for Dynamis Lord and Kirin; ES Elegy on Hydra; and etc.)

Fair amount of variety. Oddly enough, I've rarely seen BRDs used with the BLM party.

Why must RDM be a bitch healer at endgame - it can do more.

No need for name calling; there's nothing wrong with playing healer or just playing flexibly. *shrug*

That said, I've been asked to main heal only once in the last two month in anything which can be called "endgame", I think. (Unless merit party counts.) The LS's I'm in have plenty of WHMs, though, and plenty of RDMs. My role is some combination of crowd control, Refresh (they toss me in all MP parties a lot), enfeebling, and sometimes Phalanx II for the more dicey fights for 99% of the situation, so far--what I do most of the time do not leave much MP to cure, to be honest. Heck, WHMs frequently use Devotion to keep me going.

I guess I'm just still looking for a linkshell that will use these jobs more intelligently. We're not just there to refresh. Those melee buffs weren't just for merit PTs and EXP, they're good at endgame too. Just because we're rare at endgame and few people want to play these jobs isn't an excuse of using them so poorly.

You have your own event LS now, don't you? There's your answer. It's a shame to let a BRD75 go to waste.

[Neomage]

Re: Battle System Improvements (02/22/2008)

And Scholar?

/SCH gives SMN subbale B skill Aspir and Cures, /WHM is still better unless you think those B Skill Tier II nukes are really going to make SMN like Rydia.

Still better? True, /WHM gets status cures and curaga, but SCH has it's own tool that is very beneficial to a healer:

Regen II.

Very MP efficient, easy to use, and low enimity. You still get Raise, and Light Magic reduces the MP cost and casting time of cures. Not to mention, as you said, Drain and Aspir. These scale directly off of Dark Magic skill, not just the accuracy but the base damage as well. This means they can be really efficient tools for a SMN even if Drain is only utilitized for DoT.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Battle System Improvements (02/22/2008)

OK I did make that comment Selphiie quoted, I just edited out a really rant-ish paragraph back there so it didn't appear in that post. Guess I'll rant anyway.

I would like to see BRD improved so its utilized more properly at endgame instead of being used for such shallow ends. Its a manabucket at endgame. COR is your guy to stick in the mage PT, I don't mind it so much because I'm better mage support than a BRD. But why must both jobs be relegated to the BLM PTs when we have great melee buffs, too? Why must RDM be a bitch healer at endgame - it can do more.

I guess I'm just still looking for a linkshell that will use these jobs more intelligently. We're not just there to refresh. Those melee buffs weren't just for merit PTs and EXP, they're good at endgame too. Just because we're rare at endgame and few people want to play these jobs isn't an excuse of using them so poorly.

[Selphiie The Enchantress]

Re: Battle System Improvements (02/22/2008)

Its utterly wrong to shove a BRD into a party of BLMs and have them do nothing more than Ballad.

This is why i wonder why do i even bother throwing millions into my bard when im only going to sing two songs in endgame, Ballad I and Ballad II, forget about the Kirins osode, just demerit all my wind merits, just sell all my gear and sha'ir gear and wear AF because all im going to do...

is Ballad I and II...

Its the sad truth...

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Battle System Improvements (02/22/2008)

. . . wut?

I don't understand your confusion, but then, you're not exactly up there in RDM level yet. RDM, BRD and COR have a lot of good things going for them, so much people are allowed to underplay the jobs and still get invited for two essential abilities.

Dispel and Refresh. Hard to have stellar PTs without those. RDM also has MP endurance, enfeebling and curative ability. BRD and COR have buffs in their favor. RDM helps a PT outlast a mob while a BRD or COR give the PT a gross advantage over the mob.

Invites are the easiest part of the job, though. But once you have refresh/haste cycles on RDM, more enfeebling to do and cures or status cures to take care of, it gets a lot more work going on. You have to be on top of your game to manage doing most of this and keeping your MP up.

BRD and COR don't just stand there buffing and nothing else, COR has DD capability and BRD is a popular puller. COR has to maintain buffs, keep a watchful eye on enfeebles to enhance with Quick Draw, they can DD as well as sleep possibly links. BRD doesn't have the DD capability, but depending on sub it can make and efficient PT even more efficient through /WHM by not only Ballading to refill mage MP, but using its tiny MP pool to cover things like status cures so the WHM can focus purely on curing the party. BRDs can sleep the links, too.

Some people can do these things AND pull, all while keeping buffs up. I know RDMs that can just keep going and going no matter what you throw at them. It takes a bit of skill to do these things. THAT is now its "not easy." Not all of us just take up these jobs for easy merits, some truely do strive to use these jobs to make PTs as effective as possible, not to mention maximize thier event potential.

SE seems to be making its final refinements to COR soon, namely in the next Quick Draw adjustment. While not exactly an AoE QD ability, borrowing the "Strategem" concept for QD is a brilliant alternative solution, allowing CORs to QD in succession. After that, its just a matter of what DNC and SCH Rolls are. BRD will get a AoE to Single Target ability, which is concept borrowed from RDM merits, should boost thier abilities to work with a PLD and frontline MP users a lot better, not to mention Minuet RNGs like RNGs would like to be. What RDM gets is a mystery as of now, but it seems SE does understand RDM is a dedicated caster and its not meant to covert them to DDs (as some RDMs are insanely expecting).

How is /WHM better than /SCH? You just said yourself /SCH is a subbable B-ranked Aspir (great for getting MP back to maintain your summon and BPs), and, at a different time, is going to have a B-Ranked Healing Skill, as opposed to a half-Skill from /WHM.

If you are referring to status cures, et al, I would prefer a dedicated White Mage to a /WHM anyday, and even so, the Summoner itself has Leviathan's Healing Springs at the ready, anyways.

If I'm gonna sub something, I'm not going to do it for one perk. That B skill in Dark Magic would mean a bit more to WHM or RDM main. SMN has MP to spare and /WHM offers more curative abilities.

WHM doesn't do status cures better than anyone /WHM save for one status cure - Stona, because only WHM can do it. Status cures do not get resisted. All other situations, particularly where one ISN'T main healing and a WHM is, is common courtesy amoung mages (or at least it was before ToA) that a RDM or BRD would help cover status cures for the WHM so they can, again, focus on healing only. If my BRD can do anything with its pitiful manapool, why not use it to benefit the WHM and cover those status cures? To me, BRD is about PT efficiency. COR isn't all the different, I just mix DD in more commonly than MP and now with /DNC, I can even help efficiency in status cures that way.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Battle System Improvements (02/22/2008)

News Flash: Online game. We usually fight one mob at a time here and have melee jobs to think about and balance as well. Mage and support jobs come with so many perks and advantages that I find the "woe is me" attitude annoying when uttered by a RDM, BRD or COR. Woe is nothing, they have it pretty damned good. They have something that gets them invited.

Actually it applies to all 20. Just because three of them have easier invites doesn't mean there's any less of a headache or thier own job issues to deal with.

BRD, RDM and COR can all be a hell of an inventory to maintain. A dedicated COR is always going to have to have gil ready and ammo stocked away to do thier thing. They also happen to be jobs that likely remain probably the most busy within any party, when one minute passes where these jobs aren't doing anything, the party tends to notice.

. . . wut?

/SCH gives SMN subbale B skill Aspir and Cures, /WHM is still better unless you think those B Skill Tier II nukes are really going to make SMN like Rydia.

How is /WHM better than /SCH? You just said yourself /SCH is a subbable B-ranked Aspir (great for getting MP back to maintain your summon and BPs), and, at a different time, is going to have a B-Ranked Healing Skill, as opposed to a half-Skill from /WHM.

If you are referring to status cures, et al, I would prefer a dedicated White Mage to a /WHM anyday, and even so, the Summoner itself has Leviathan's Healing Springs at the ready, anyways.

[Murphie]

Re: Battle System Improvements (02/22/2008)

Maybe a SMN without avatars isn't meant to fight. I mean, you're still basing your entire argument around the fact that you want SMN to be a damage powerhouse, with or without avatars.

There are 19 other jobs in the game. If you're not happy with the way SMN plays, then don't level it. Which you aren't, so I really don't get why you keep going on about it.

[Malacite]

Re: Battle System Improvements (02/22/2008)

And what's wrong with SE changing how avatars work based on SJ? The DRG's wyvern acts differently according to SJ, and SE has even gone on saying that they plan to expand the wyvern's actions in battle. I'd also like to point out that unlike SMN, BST DRG and PUP can still fight decently without their pets present. A SMN has jack shit to rely on outside of their sub without a pet.

Lowest physical stats in the game + lousy combat ratings + mage gear = pansy with a stick. Oh yeah, DRG can main heal with healing breath, in addition to PUP with Soulsoother, so why not have SMN be a main healer with an avatar? (Carby, Phoenix, Garuda, Leviathian and Alexander are all good candidates >.>)

Shit, SMN's been doing that since it's inception. So WHAT if it's an online game? That doesn't mean SE can't try to please the fan base and keep it balanced. Why can't SMN play the way it has in previous games; Careful management of MP. Just because they're pets now and stay out (or not, has been the case for a while now ><) is no excuse. (Okay, it does play this way to an extent right now, but the major problem is that the MP spent just isn't worth it outside of the lv 70 BPs against HNMs and buffs like stoneskinga and noctoshield, both of which SCH can do more effectively now!)

If a SMN wants to go BP-happy and blow all their MP thus slowing down the party (or worse) then so be it. I say power up the avatars, make them more distinguished from each other (I had a rather long list in another thread) and let us have fun playing with our kick ass gods. Increased enmity for blood pacts (especially if you're continually using them) is another idea to balance this, so that the mob eventually gets the picture and goes after the much more vulnerable SMN.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Battle System Improvements (02/22/2008)

You could take out "SMN" from that first paragraph and insert about 16 other jobs not named RDM or COR and that statement would hold true. So how does that little anecdote show what's wrong with SMN?

Actually it applies to all 20. Just because three of them have easier invites doesn't mean there's any less of a headache or thier own job issues to deal with.

BRD, RDM and COR can all be a hell of an inventory to maintain. A dedicated COR is always going to have to have gil ready and ammo stocked away to do thier thing. They also happen to be jobs that likely remain probably the most busy within any party, when one minute passes where these jobs aren't doing anything, the party tends to notice.

And Scholar?

/SCH gives SMN subbale B skill Aspir and Cures, /WHM is still better unless you think those B Skill Tier II nukes are really going to make SMN like Rydia.

If you're implying SCH somehow doesn't scale in power, you're going to have to explain your position, because it does scale in power.

[Lmnop]

Re: Battle System Improvements (02/22/2008)

You could take out "SMN" from that first paragraph and insert about 16 other jobs not named RDM or COR and that statement would hold true. So how does that little anecdote show what's wrong with SMN?

The only jobs I haven't merited with are:

PUP, DNC, SCH.

The only jobs that I have yet to have a pleasurable experience meriting with are:

SMN, BLM. 2 Jobs that S-E knows are having troubles fitting in.

------------------------

My basic Bard argument is just that it's useful in almost every situation. Light based, mp-free AoE sleep with low resist rate, for starters. C rank skills means jack shit since every offensive song uses 2 skills to figure. Carnage Elegy is more potent than any debuff a RDM could ever throw out.

I could go on and on, but please don't make me.

People say BRD is nothing w/out a party and that balances them. But this is a party game.

When you simply cannot make 20k/hour w/out a BRD, the job has become too essential.

I will not discuss this further in this thread, as we have enough off-topics as is.

[Neomage]

Re: Battle System Improvements (02/22/2008)

The job scales up in power, like many, many other jobs. If they ended up being just like BLMs, there would be no advantages to being one or the other. There's no better subjob out there for SMN than /WHM, so by nature of the main jobs design, /WHM fufills a higher capability for healing than it would if you was under BLM main.

And Scholar?

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: Battle System Improvements (02/22/2008)

...And getting my friend's SMN to 75 was a pain in the ass. With me only having WAR to offer, and him having BRD 75 already, there were no layouts we could make (even layouts that already had a BRD) where he didn't feel he would be doing more good for the party as being BRD #2. Whenever 2 of the same job is better than job diversity, there's an issue.

But I get flamed whenever I bring up that I think BRD is broken, so I'll instead say that shows a lot of what's wrong with SMN.

You could take out "SMN" from that first paragraph and insert about 16 other jobs not named RDM or COR and that statement would hold true. So how does that little anecdote show what's wrong with SMN?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Battle System Improvements (02/22/2008)

C rated skills for a start. Never mind that every damn song sounds the same, and we tend to just cast the same 4 songs by end game (which is something else SE has admitted to and is working on). Please let that single-target ability come with this update > < I am beyond sick of trying to refresh PLD's while not messing up the group's buffs.

BRD is already rather powerful with those C skills, it would be broken to change that rating at this point, seeing as they scaled up COR's buffs in August to be comprable or exceed them when they're lucky"

Also, you can not seriously argue that the DD pacts pre-65 are good. Some of them can do decent damage (particularly in promyvion) but most are a just large waste of MP compared to the power a BLM can dish out, or a melee with a WS.

The job scales up in power, like many, many other jobs. If they ended up being just like BLMs, there would be no advantages to being one or the other. There's no better subjob out there for SMN than /WHM, so by nature of the main jobs design, /WHM fufills a higher capability for healing than it would if you was under BLM main.

Of course SMN isn't entirely about DD, but traditionally (and keep in mind the dev team said they wanted FFXI to closely resemble FF1-3) it's been about dealing with mass groups of enemies swiftly. High power at high cost.

Offline games.

Well, make with the power already. Some of the buffs really suck (Frost Armor, Rolling Thunder and Crimson Howl are a joke) and BLM's can out damage the Tier 2/4 nukes with ease using lower tiered nukes! Last I checked in the history of FF, BLM's edge over SMN has always been on MP conservation (against single enemies) and utility spells. Hell, like RNG, the job's 2-hour is eventually outshined by the 70 BPs (against a single target that is).

News Flash: Online game. We usually fight one mob at a time here and have melee jobs to think about and balance as well. Mage and support jobs come with so many perks and advantages that I find the "woe is me" attitude annoying when uttered by a RDM, BRD or COR. Woe is nothing, they have it pretty damned good. They have something that gets them invited.

DRG, BST and PUP all get to keep their pets out full time, so why not SMN? Why is it the only pet job that doesn't get to (in a practical application) keep it's pet out? Avatars are horribly inefficient, both on MP and damage dealt vs TP given to the mob.

DRG's wyvern and PUP's Automation have extremely weak defenses and 20 minute recast timer. When SMN's pet dies, they just summon another one or sit on thier ass until they can do so reasonably again. If a wyvern gets one-shotted shortly after its called, DRG has to wait much longer than a SMN would. BST's jug pets aren't exactly what I'd call sturdy save for CourrierCarrie, which is a lousy DD jug. They're trusty for farming and the DD jugs that are good are tremendously costly or time consuming to far, not to mention some are dependant on how many KS runs were being done that day. Oh, and they're crafted.

As for making Avatars cure like automations, PUP just got two big boosts that made it more inviteable and none seem to complain that Soulsoother head and /DNC making them healers. Should we just kick PUP right in the nuts and take away something that sets them apart from other pet jobs?

You're not winning on the issue of the job not getting to do what it was meant for, which is summoning. Not when the company itself has openly admitted that there's a problem that needs to and will be addressed.

So Summonters summon? I mean, Dancers dance, Rangers shoot from a range and Beastmasters master beasts! That's crazy. We should just take all these names to the literal extreme, obviously.

People can tout all they want about how this is an MMO, blah blah blah but as long as it's called "Final Fantasy" there are certain obligations to the fan base SE has to come through with. I for one, will not touch SMN again on my Elvaan until SE makes it viable to keep avatars and spirits out in parties and make use of them as opposed to my subjob to full my duties in the party.

Balance is always going to come before what people want in an online game. How about I never pick up COR or RNG again until I get my ammo for free? Gee, I'm going to stop playing until Kitase gets on as a writer and gives me some real emocharacters like he did in FFVII and FFX. I want my damned BCNM with Sephiroth! Putting him in Kingdom Hearts was not enough!

[Malacite]

Re: Battle System Improvements (02/22/2008)

C rated skills for a start. Never mind that every damn song sounds the same, and we tend to just cast the same 4 songs by end game (which is something else SE has admitted to and is working on). Please let that single-target ability come with this update > < I am beyond sick of trying to refresh PLD's while not messing up the group's buffs.

Also, you can not seriously argue that the DD pacts pre-65 are good. Some of them can do decent damage (particularly in promyvion) but most are a just large waste of MP compared to the power a BLM can dish out, or a melee with a WS.

Of course SMN isn't entirely about DD, but traditionally (and keep in mind the dev team said they wanted FFXI to closely resemble FF1-3) it's been about dealing with mass groups of enemies swiftly. High power at high cost.

Well, make with the power already. Some of the buffs really suck (Frost Armor, Rolling Thunder and Crimson Howl are a joke) and BLM's can out damage the Tier 2/4 nukes with ease using lower tiered nukes! Last I checked in the history of FF, BLM's edge over SMN has always been on MP conservation (against single enemies) and utility spells. Hell, like RNG, the job's 2-hour is eventually outshined by the 70 BPs (against a single target that is).

Do you really think I'll get very far by seeking and putting in my comment "Main Heal No Thanks." ? There are a lot of other mage jobs meant to fulfill that role. Hell, I wouldn't mind doing it on SMN if it was through the use of the avatars and not /WHM. DRG, BST and PUP all get to keep their pets out full time, so why not SMN? Why is it the only pet job that doesn't get to (in a practical application) keep it's pet out? Avatars are horribly inefficient, both on MP and damage dealt vs TP given to the mob.

So what if a group of them can do some crazy stuff? 18 BLM can 1-shot Divine Might. More to the point, SE's taken measures against abusing multiple people of the same job before, they can do so again if the need arises.

You're not winning on the issue of the job not getting to do what it was meant for, which is summoning. Not when the company itself has openly admitted that there's a problem that needs to and will be addressed.

People can tout all they want about how this is an MMO, blah blah blah but as long as it's called "Final Fantasy" there are certain obligations to the fan base SE has to come through with. I for one, will not touch SMN again on my Elvaan until SE makes it viable to keep avatars and spirits out in parties and make use of them as opposed to my subjob to full my duties in the party.



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/rant off.


Okay, yah we're *way* off topic now > <;


How far do you suppose the battle music range will be? More to the point, won't it be rather weird if you can switch between BGMs simply by moving 1 step back/forward? Won't that put a horrendous strain on your PC/Console?

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Battle System Improvements (02/22/2008)

Flaws began when "March isn't Haste" started being uttered. If you're going to tell me March is not a Haste, I'm going to give up hope for any intelligence in this discussion. Its not really anyone's problem but yours if you can't distinguish Flash from Haste by duration and potency effect alone.

You act as if the statements "March is Haste" and "March is a Haste" are logically equivalent. Hint: they aren't.

Everybody here knows that March reduces weapon delay, et cetera. Therefore, it is a Haste. But, because it stacks with Haste, and Haste does not stack with Haste, it is also therefore not Haste.

Furthermore, Itazura's whole point behind the analogy was that he'd be pretty ticked if they changed the message "Itazura's March effect wears" with "Itazura's Haste effect wears," because the effects themselves are not same, even though they function similarly. It's a generalization, which is almost always bad, and all he wants is when the message "Enemy's Blind effect wears," the Red Mage can be certain that it doesn't actually mean "Enemy's Flash effect wears," and may start casting again as necessary.

Heck, furthermore, the JP client already does this, so it obviously isn't something that's all that impossible to do.