Battle System Improvements (02/22/2008)

[Malacite]

Re: Battle System Improvements (02/22/2008)

Honestly, glad to see I'm not the only one who finds end-game BRD to be utterly soul crushing, and refreshing PLD (while not screwing up melee buffs) to be a needless nightmare. The recast on that JA better be 10 seconds or less.

[Akashimo]

Re: Battle System Improvements (02/22/2008)

If you think that WHM or PLD likes dying for your drops and not getting merit PTs afterward, please think again. If you think it thrills a THF to sit on the sidelines of an entire fight and get tagged in only at the very end, please think again.

I think its important to show your LS members they're a vital part of the team rather than another cog in the machine. Officers, of all people, should be making a big effort to keep people in the LS, keep them interested and maintain a good morale and momentum with those members.

People need to be acknowledged, made to feel special and they'll work harder for you. People who make endgame all about themselves or playing things one way make it a miserable experience.

QFT. BBQ, you're my hero now.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Battle System Improvements (02/22/2008)

Obviously the sample size is too small to generalize to the rest of Ifrit, much less the entire FFXI player base.

The endgame experience is highly subject to what kind of people you have running your linkshell, along with some server trends, which are variable from LS to LS and server to server. When I was on Titan, I was an officer for a sky LS and I got my say about how our BRD and CORs (well, just me) were used. I pretty much stuck to the BLMs and melees got thier buffs.

But I also did endgame previously as BRD before I was doing it as COR and RNG, that was a miserable experience becuase, at the time, there was only BRD to AoE buff mages... and its all I ever got to do.

Maybe /DNC is just the remedy COR needs for all those penny-pinchers who refuse to take it to 75. The combo doesn't totally prevent the DD minded COR from popping out a Slug Shot, but it does give a fair excuse for the mage minded COR to hold back. Best part is, all those CORs out there wasting time with /WHM and melee gear would get more out of /DNC since its a healer sub made for melee gear. Then mage subs can just be saved for thier proper place - pre-30 and endgame.

BLMs f'n love a COR in manaburns and I've found that as COR doing manaburns with linkshell BLMs on Titan that they'll follow you like Pavlov's dog. I think they know they're not getting Corsair's Roll in Dynamis, but they just see the COR and stay with them. Luzaf's Ring doesn't hurt, either.

In regards to this being a "community issue" I only think that's partially right. When players overlook or underutilize something, sometimes SE does adjust it to make it more worthwhile. I think that's part of why BRD is getting a new JA, the other reason being how much its underplayed buff-wise in merit. Players just underutilize BRD's potential. As much as I hated BRD tanking, at least that wasn't underutilizing, it was finding an additional direction to take the job in. It got nerfed to hell and I don't disagree with that nerf, but the point still stands.

The community issue though is that of morale. Some people just don't understand the value of member morale. Getting stuck in the same task over and over again can get a little dehumanizing at endgame. If your idea of showing a RNG or BST a good time is sending them to camp and scan for Zipanaca every sky run, please think again. If you think that WHM or PLD likes dying for your drops and not getting merit PTs afterward, please think again. If you think it thrills a THF to sit on the sidelines of an entire fight and get tagged in only at the very end, please think again.

I think its important to show your LS members they're a vital part of the team rather than another cog in the machine. Officers, of all people, should be making a big effort to keep people in the LS, keep them interested and maintain a good morale and momentum with those members. That's what I would do in my LS on Titan.

But offering a BRD to merit? You're not really doing them any favors there, gotta think harder. After a soulless session of playing Ballad and nothing but, the very last thing a BRD wants to hear is "Wanna TP/manaburn?"

Hopefully the update to BRD will change a few things. It will most certainly change relations between BRD and frontline MP users like PLD. PLD with Ballads and Refresh stacked without casting it on the melee - sign me up for that one, hell, it would help me get Minuets on those that need and marches on those that need as well. Just keep the recast on the ability low and its golden.

Anyway, overall, I have a grasp of what morale means to a linkshell and its really frustrating sometimes to deal with people who don't have that concept. Its teamwork just like being on a sportsteam or being part of a team at work. People need to be acknowledged, made to feel special and they'll work harder for you. People who make endgame all about themselves or playing things one way make it a miserable experience.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Battle System Improvements (02/22/2008)

I have the feeling, as I do from most of your posts, you play with a lot of seasoned or Japanese players. NA Linkshells tend to see BRD as a Refresh monkey, even the good NA endgame shells tend to think like this. Its rare to find an NA or, especially EU LS where bards are used properly.

Hmm. I pretty much only interact with JP players in Campaign Battles and exp/merit parties.
- Dynamis LS: Real mix bag, probably mostly NA players, but a lot of HK players, too. Used to have EU players, but unsure about now. (May have had JP players in the past, but that was before I joined.)
- Event/"endgame" LS: A good number of of HK and NA "import" players, but plenty of plain NA players as well.
- Social LS: Almost entirely NA, with a few Asian players in odd places like UK and New Zealand.

Obviously the sample size is too small to generalize to the rest of Ifrit, much less the entire FFXI player base.

My phrasing was meant to say RDM screwed into the healer role, I wasn't bagging on RDMs that don't mind it, I was complaining about what they're almost always forced to be that. RDM can be way more versatile in endgame than it was in EXP.

I see pressure to be main healer in exp/merit parties, but even there it's not "forced"--plenty of RDMs have declined parties asking for that, and not a few must have put together their own parties to avoid it.

Its mostly a mission LS which, if things go well, will expand into a Limbus. Limbus is something most people can do on thier own terms. And its much shorter, so its not as draining on any jobs I have. That said, I just don't like being a BRD, even if its 75, I won't play it unless I see a reason to do so.

Ah, I see. Good luck with the LS and BRD-avoidance.

[Malacite]

Re: Battle System Improvements (02/22/2008)

And the SMN's pet is at least 3x stronger than any of those other jobs' pets, and doesn't have a multiple MINUTE recast timer if it dies. (And so far the extent of "expanding the wyvern's actions in battle" has been Super Climb.)

Said pets can also be recalled instantly if the timer is up. What's a SMN gonna do if it gets interrupted while casting? Besides, that's why they drain MP, to offset that. I suggest you go back to the fan fest info and you'll see SE's promise to expand the wyvern's actions (though we're still waiting on that scythe update...)

Are you joking? Healing breath won't trigger unless the party member is below 50% hp, and *then* you have to wait several more seconds for it to go off. It's dangerous enough trying that shit on a tough. There's no way it would work in a full party as anything more than a very limited emergency backup heal.

Funny, I've seen some DRG's manage to do so just fine (60+) in some instances. It's by no means ideal but certainly doable.

Maybe you didn't notice, but Carby, Garuda and Leviathan all already have healing BPs (in addition to the healing SMN can do through SJ). Leviathan's even removes status ailments at the same time.

Healing once a minute would be kind of limiting, which is why SMN healers rely on regular magic the rest of the time.

I haven't seen a PUP main healer yet, but it's my understanding that they have to use /DNC to make up for the times when the puppet doesn't heal the right person at the right time.

Again, pact timers. In past FF's SMN was quite powerful at keeping others alive (Golem + Starlet [aka Lakshmi], as well as Phoenix for AoE Fire dmg + Full-Life) though the use of avatars, so why not in FFXI? Idk how many times I have to say this, the emphasis should be on using the avatars and watching your MP rather than relying on the SJ.

Why can't subbing WHM give a direct boost to healing pacts (that is, healing magic skill + summoning magic skill the way blue magic does) along with perhaps an option to have avatars do something to keep people alive between pacts? (Carby could maybe regen PT members slowly or something?)

Also, SMN doesn't have convert or a strong refresh, but the automaton does. (I forget what it maxes it at, I think it's around 4-5 MP a tic with 3 dark maneuvers)

Ok, you can have the avatars' classic attacks (currently the 2hours) any time you want. In exchange, you can no longer recover MP except at inns (mog house) and by using items, just like in those classic games. Deal?

"Careful management of MP" doesn't mean the same thing in a game with resting and refresh effects. That's why the avatars' super attacks have a *new* limitation: Astral Flow recast time.

This isn't previous games. Lots of things work differently, especially MP, which is about 1000x easier to get back than it ever was in classic FFs. You really can't expect MP-based mechanics to work the same way.

You're the one going to the extreme here, not me. This is the biggest problem with SMN. To paraphrase SE, the job is very difficult to balance because it's too easy to over power it. That's more or less what they said on the matter years ago and it's proving to be quite true, though they certainly did a good job with BLM (they just need something to help their endurance)

Is it really too much to ask that an avatars physical BP's be at least on par with a weaponskill, or that the tier 2 and 4 nukes actually do the damage they should? I remember MB'ing Fire 2 on a yuhtunga mandy on fire day for barely over 100 damage. A BLM would have smacked that sucker for a lot more than that with the same spell.

Don't even get me started on the utter joke for DoT that is their melee.

Wrong. Even once SCH is high enough level to do those things at all (which relies on their subjob, because otherwise they wouldn't even have the spells), they're still on a minimum *4* minute recast timer, and that's assuming you're just going to suck up the casting time and MP cost penalties and not try to stratagem-combo to offset them. (If you think SMN's dependence on its recast timers is bad, you really don't want to ever try SCH.) And you don't mention SMN buffs or debuffs with no equivalent from another job, like several of Fenrir's.

SMN needs, at most, tweaks: another look at perp costs, spirits casting sooner/more often/smarter, rework of some bugged/too weak BPs. The job is useful and wanted in a variety of settings as it is, and some people clearly have no problem leveling; the fact that it isn't the job *you* want it to be doesn't make it "broken".

I think you're selling SCH a little short there. A good friend of mine managed to repeatedly AoE stoneskin/Regen II us quite often and that PT went great. (we were all 57-58 chaining Lesser Colibri)

So you'd rather weaken or eliminate one of SMN's most unique and powerful advantages (the avatar having its own enmity) in order to be more like BLMs? I'm glad SE doesn't listen to you.

I'm saying in a prolonged fight, it's only fair that the mob eventually 'learns' what's really hurting it.


And no Murphie, I'm not just on a DD craze for SMN. I'm asking SE to make it more viable to multitask through use of avatars and pacts as opposed to your SJ. I never said I wanted SMN's physical stats to be powered up (that's what avatars are for)

[Lmnop]

Re: Battle System Improvements (02/22/2008)

No one if forcing you to post anything. We can't make you response to any side discussion that you don't want to. Making a post where you add to the discussion and then trying to end it that way is simply passive-aggressive and hypocritical.

If it'll make you feel better, start a topic titled "Why does Lmnop think BRDs are overpowered?"

I'll drop a line in there. Just for you.

--------------

Am I alone in feeling like, even at endgame, SMNs are still broken? This is territory I'm not certain about, but I feel that using BPs as your only source of damage because they give 0 tp is slightly ummm abusive. So it's like for 70 levels, they're broken in how much they're made to rely on their SJ. And the only SJ they can use well gives them a role that kinda sucks to half-ass so... by possessing a healer SJ, the only way to put it to use is main heal full time. Which means no MP for main job... seriously, the only reason the SMNs I party with even whip out Avatars is because I make them (not counting the aforementioned friend).

And then once they get damaging BPs, people are like "zomg Tiamat!" with it. (Do people even do all-SMN Tiamats any more? o0) I'm not really sure where SMN stands at end game atm, though. So someone enlighten me. But I feel like their role shifts entirely from light buff/lots of heals to DD/rest a lot. Seems like the job was intended to have a lot more in between...

[Feba]

Re: Battle System Improvements (02/22/2008)

Making a post where you add to the discussion and then trying to end it that way is simply passive-aggressive and hypocritical.

No, it isn't. Sometimes you need to make a point about something, but you don't want the thread to get derailed by it. There's nothing passive-aggressive or hypocritical about it.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: Battle System Improvements (02/22/2008)

I could go on and on, but please don't make me.

...

I will not discuss this further in this thread, as we have enough off-topics as is.

No one if forcing you to post anything. We can't make you response to any side discussion that you don't want to. Making a post where you add to the discussion and then trying to end it that way is simply passive-aggressive and hypocritical.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Battle System Improvements (02/22/2008)

Wrong. Even once SCH is high enough level to do those things at all (which relies on their subjob, because otherwise they wouldn't even have the spells), they're still on a minimum *4* minute recast timer, and that's assuming you're just going to suck up the casting time and MP cost penalties and not try to stratagem-combo to offset them. (If you think SMN's dependence on its recast timers is bad, you really don't want to ever try SCH.) And you don't mention SMN buffs or debuffs with no equivalent from another job, like several of Fenrir's.

Your comparison of Summoner to Scholar is flawed, as a Scholar does not need to use one of their four-minute-recast stratagems in order to spellcast. Summoner, on the other hand, is indeed forced to only one spell from each of two types of pacts every minute. Try to get around that without bringing heavily relied-upon subjobs in to the mix.

SMN needs, at most, tweaks: another look at perp costs, spirits casting sooner/more often/smarter, rework of some bugged/too weak BPs. The job is useful and wanted in a variety of settings as it is, and some people clearly have no problem leveling; the fact that it isn't the job *you* want it to be doesn't make it "broken".

Anybody who has no problem leveling Summoner already has another job at 75. Period.

You can wave all of your Carby Mitts and Fenrirs and Diaboloses all you want, but who honestly has those without already having a higher-leveled job? Everybody know's Summoner can do some pretty powerful stuff at endgame, but getting there is far from newbie-friendly.

Summoner at endgame only needs a few tweaks at most: before that, it needs a flippin' overhauling.

[Karinya]

Re: Battle System Improvements (02/22/2008)

I would like to see BRD improved so its utilized more properly at endgame instead of being used for such shallow ends. Its a manabucket at endgame. COR is your guy to stick in the mage PT, I don't mind it so much because I'm better mage support than a BRD. But why must both jobs be relegated to the BLM PTs when we have great melee buffs, too?

Because the melees aren't meleeing, they're meditating or drinking sleep potions and waiting until they can be swapped in to WS or chi blast. It's the content, not the jobs. Bards get into melee parties all the time in Dynamis, Limbus and other content that isn't divided into BLMs, people who distract mob from BLMs, support, leeches. (Slight exaggeration - SMNs are also useful in those fights, for example - but you get the point.)

Why must RDM be a bitch healer at endgame - it can do more.

Ludicrously high resist rates even with HQ staves, full merits, torques, af2 etc. The main strength of the job just goes out the window on a level 90 mob. (And you can just about forget nuking.) That leaves refresh, haste and cures, which won't be resisted because they can't be. (And Chainstun, a unique application of RDM's 2hr which is sometimes very useful.)

Again, it's different in many vs. many zones - in Dynamis I help nuke statues, sleep lots of stuff, silence mages and pets, even finished off several 2houring THF and PLD mobs with my uber C+ Elemental.

I guess I'm just still looking for a linkshell that will use these jobs more intelligently. We're not just there to refresh. Those melee buffs weren't just for merit PTs and EXP, they're good at endgame too. Just because we're rare at endgame and few people want to play these jobs isn't an excuse of using them so poorly.

Well, if the melees aren't meleeing because of the design of the fight, there's not much reason to buff the melee they aren't using.

If your dynamis ls uses the same tactics and party setups for dynamis that they use for Kirin, then yeah, they fail, get a new LS. But most don't, that I know of. Content determines tactics and unfortunately a lot of HNMs are still manaburn onry. That isn't the whole endgame.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Battle System Improvements (02/22/2008)

Since you are a bard, and you run a event linkshell, you can dictate your(and other Bard's) terms. You know what it is like to be exploited and not used to your full potential. You know what it is like to not give everything you can. The problem with Bards is mostly a community issue. This problem won't fix itself if you sit around whining and complaining about how Bard does not get into melee parties. Get up and DO something about it.

Yes, but I have BRDs in my LS that like being BRDs and will be placed with melees when the situation calls for it, I would most likely support mages as COR, which I have no problems with, as I'm the better choice for the BLM. Also, my LS is mission based and RNG and BST can be rather essential to leading people through things like Promyvions and Riverne Zones.

Event-based LS =/= Endgame LS. Might do Limbus, but for now we're doing the intermediate content, completing missions and getting pop item gear.

And FYI, on Midgardsormr, Bards DO go into the melee parties, while the BLMs get CORs and RDMs. Either your sever and the people on it don't know much about FFXI compared to every other server, or you are making the situation out to be much, much worse then it really is. I'm leaning to number 2.

Better to speak your linkshell than an entire server, I assure you this problem occurs on every server in many, many linkshells - even the best of them Its less common in Limbus or Salvage and really common in Dynamis or Sky/HNM for it to happen.

You can't fix stupid, when there's too much stupid to going around, SE has to step in and change game design. BRD's design is getting changed, which is good not only for its party performance, but endgame.

SE seems to think something is wrong with BRD, so pardon me if I disagree with you. Just about every concern I've had about BRD or BRD vs. COR has been addressed by SE, so I think they're well-aware of just how underutlized these jobs are in EXP and endgame, otherwise they wouldn't be planning the adjustments they are.

The single-target song ability would change alot of things for BRDs, force them to be busier, make them work with PLDs and frontline MP users, also to buff a PT member that might draw greater benefit from a different one than the other melees got. It should also HOPEFULLY change some things in endgame for BRD, but I often underestimate the stupidity of players.

[Karinya]

Re: Battle System Improvements (02/22/2008)

And what's wrong with SE changing how avatars work based on SJ? The DRG's wyvern acts differently according to SJ, and SE has even gone on saying that they plan to expand the wyvern's actions in battle. I'd also like to point out that unlike SMN, BST DRG and PUP can still fight decently without their pets present. A SMN has jack shit to rely on outside of their sub without a pet.

And the SMN's pet is at least 3x stronger than any of those other jobs' pets, and doesn't have a multiple MINUTE recast timer if it dies. (And so far the extent of "expanding the wyvern's actions in battle" has been Super Climb.)

Lowest physical stats in the game + lousy combat ratings + mage gear = pansy with a stick. Oh yeah, DRG can main heal with healing breath,

Are you joking? Healing breath won't trigger unless the party member is below 50% hp, and *then* you have to wait several more seconds for it to go off. It's dangerous enough trying that shit on a tough. There's no way it would work in a full party as anything more than a very limited emergency backup heal.

in addition to PUP with Soulsoother, so why not have SMN be a main healer with an avatar? (Carby, Phoenix, Garuda, Leviathian and Alexander are all good candidates >.>)

Maybe you didn't notice, but Carby, Garuda and Leviathan all already have healing BPs (in addition to the healing SMN can do through SJ). Leviathan's even removes status ailments at the same time.

Healing once a minute would be kind of limiting, which is why SMN healers rely on regular magic the rest of the time.

I haven't seen a PUP main healer yet, but it's my understanding that they have to use /DNC to make up for the times when the puppet doesn't heal the right person at the right time.

Shit, SMN's been doing that since it's inception. So WHAT if it's an online game? That doesn't mean SE can't try to please the fan base and keep it balanced. Why can't SMN play the way it has in previous games; Careful management of MP.

Ok, you can have the avatars' classic attacks (currently the 2hours) any time you want. In exchange, you can no longer recover MP except at inns (mog house) and by using items, just like in those classic games. Deal?

"Careful management of MP" doesn't mean the same thing in a game with resting and refresh effects. That's why the avatars' super attacks have a *new* limitation: Astral Flow recast time.

This isn't previous games. Lots of things work differently, especially MP, which is about 1000x easier to get back than it ever was in classic FFs. You really can't expect MP-based mechanics to work the same way.

Just because they're pets now and stay out (or not, has been the case for a while now ><) is no excuse. (Okay, it does play this way to an extent right now, but the major problem is that the MP spent just isn't worth it outside of the lv 70 BPs against HNMs and buffs like stoneskinga and noctoshield, both of which SCH can do more effectively now!)

Wrong. Even once SCH is high enough level to do those things at all (which relies on their subjob, because otherwise they wouldn't even have the spells), they're still on a minimum *4* minute recast timer, and that's assuming you're just going to suck up the casting time and MP cost penalties and not try to stratagem-combo to offset them. (If you think SMN's dependence on its recast timers is bad, you really don't want to ever try SCH.) And you don't mention SMN buffs or debuffs with no equivalent from another job, like several of Fenrir's.

SMN needs, at most, tweaks: another look at perp costs, spirits casting sooner/more often/smarter, rework of some bugged/too weak BPs. The job is useful and wanted in a variety of settings as it is, and some people clearly have no problem leveling; the fact that it isn't the job *you* want it to be doesn't make it "broken".

If a SMN wants to go BP-happy and blow all their MP thus slowing down the party (or worse) then so be it. I say power up the avatars, make them more distinguished from each other (I had a rather long list in another thread) and let us have fun playing with our kick ass gods. Increased enmity for blood pacts (especially if you're continually using them) is another idea to balance this, so that the mob eventually gets the picture and goes after the much more vulnerable SMN.

So you'd rather weaken or eliminate one of SMN's most unique and powerful advantages (the avatar having its own enmity) in order to be more like BLMs? I'm glad SE doesn't listen to you.

[Neomage]

Re: Battle System Improvements (02/22/2008)

Since you are a bard, and you run a event linkshell, you can dictate your(and other Bard's) terms. You know what it is like to be exploited and not used to your full potential. You know what it is like to not give everything you can. The problem with Bards is mostly a community issue. This problem won't fix itself if you sit around whining and complaining about how Bard does not get into melee parties. Get up and DO something about it.

And FYI, on Midgardsormr, Bards DO go into the melee parties, while the BLMs get CORs and RDMs. Either your sever and the people on it don't know much about FFXI compared to every other server, or you are making the situation out to be much, much worse then it really is. I'm leaning to number 2.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Battle System Improvements (02/22/2008)

Haven't been in endgame for that long. So far, I've seen BRD used for/in/with:
- Tank party (March for PLD/NIN's, Ballad for the back line jobs)
- Melee party (crowd control, buffs, Ballad for WHM in Dynamis, SV melee songs for Dynamis Lord and Kirin; ES Elegy on Hydra; and etc.)

Fair amount of variety. Oddly enough, I've rarely seen BRDs used with the BLM party.

I have the feeling, as I do from most of your posts, you play with a lot of seasoned or Japanese players. NA Linkshells tend to see BRD as a Refresh monkey, even the good NA endgame shells tend to think like this. Its rare to find an NA or, especially EU LS where bards are used properly.

No need for name calling; there's nothing wrong with playing healer or just playing flexibly. *shrug*

My phrasing was meant to say RDM screwed into the healer role, I wasn't bagging on RDMs that don't mind it, I was complaining about what they're almost always forced to be that. RDM can be way more versatile in endgame than it was in EXP.

That said, I've been asked to main heal only once in the last two month in anything which can be called "endgame", I think. (Unless merit party counts.) The LS's I'm in have plenty of WHMs, though, and plenty of RDMs. My role is some combination of crowd control, Refresh (they toss me in all MP parties a lot), enfeebling, and sometimes Phalanx II for the more dicey fights for 99% of the situation, so far--what I do most of the time do not leave much MP to cure, to be honest. Heck, WHMs frequently use Devotion to keep me going.

Your experience doesn't mean its like that for everyone. Some LSes are just really poor about keeping mages interested, involved and geared up.

You have your own event LS now, don't you? There's your answer. It's a shame to let a BRD75 go to waste.

Its mostly a mission LS which, if things go well, will expand into a Limbus. Limbus is something most people can do on thier own terms. And its much shorter, so its not as draining on any jobs I have. That said, I just don't like being a BRD, even if its 75, I won't play it unless I see a reason to do so.

[Lmnop]

Re: Battle System Improvements (02/22/2008)

see above

Can I come to your server and join your LS?

Even running the show at events, it's often hard to get people to play the way you want them to. Especially when getting a bard for the melee party means telling someone they're not allowed to bring their DRG. That's a good way to feel shallow. You can either misuse BRD or spit on people for wanting to use their melee.

This game shouldn't have so much moral ambiguity. >_>

P.S. I don't like misquoting, but just wanted the quote-link for clarity. Don't be offended. :O