Final Fantasy XIV Linkshell Recruiting

[Icemage]

Re: Final Fantasy XIV Linkshell Recruiting

I don't doubt a need based system will equip the LS better for what it wants to do, and do so faster when done right.

The trouble is, not every member agree on exactly what it is the LS ought to do, nor how exactly (to equip the people) to do it. I think most of us can think of a personal case of two of people who don't really want to play WHM or RDM or BRD or some other job, but came come on that anyway because it's needed. Now, imagine how (un)happy they are at getting the gears they "need" instead of those gears for the jobs they actually want to play.

If an endgame LS evolved from long time stable group of friends, and rarely add new people, I can see that working out. Inevitably, though, you will have questions on who deserves which gear more/first. I think the formation of cliques (or "sub-grouping") is natural tendency of human beings, and most people cannot get away from favoritism completely.

I suppose I should qualify things by saying that not everyone is going to agree who "needs" a particular item more urgently than anyone else, but from personal experience and from discussions I've had with people from other linkshells/other servers, the really top-end linkshells all run pretty much the same way; everyone knows pretty much what everyone else wants. My LS keeps track of it with a constantly updated wishlist, and allows wishlisting for gear that is not the jobs you bring most often to events, with the only stipulation being that any job you wish to get endgame gear for be at least at level 70+. Those desires are factored in when making decisions about who gets what gears. Japanese shells in particular have a strong tendency to run this way, and I think many of the best endgame LS took their example from them (which is a good thing).

Sure, there's sometimes a certain level of favoritism to shell leaders, but too much of that tends to poison the atmosphere, and I don't know of too many great shells where the members willingly sacrifice that much to keep their shell together. More often what I see is leaders will grab the occasional important item if it's pertinent to their primary job(s) since they're often at events, and then will "pick up the spares" when there's decent gear that no one else wants, but that's hardly what I'd call abuse of power.

As for getting gear for jobs you're always arriving as, only bad shells will force/offer gear to someone who dislikes playing a particular job but brings it to an event because of necessity - unless of course no one else needs/wants said gear. So long as people are realistic about how much gear they should be getting and stays on roughly the same wavelength, everything works out sooner or later. Even if you don't get a particular item you want one time, a good LS will try to provide the item at the next opportunity, or something else that you've been wanting.

Point system and other objective methods are the best way to reduce the influence personal feelings on loot distribution, and IMO is easier to get it working right than any need based system.

I've been in many event groups in and out of my main LS with point systems. So far, I can't say any is/was run unfairly. They all share one characteristic: the points are updated regularly, and posted for all members to see so any error can be spotted and corrected.

Eh, I think what the problem with point-based systems is less to do with fairness (which is dependent on the sort of rules that are in place), but more that it discourages social bonding - when you're competing against other people to get the same gear, especially for pieces of gear that are especially popular/can be used by many jobs, it has a tendency to make people hold each other at arms length, which in turn is bad for the social dynamic aspect of the linkshell.


Icemage

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Final Fantasy XIV Linkshell Recruiting

I think most of us can think of a personal case of two of people who don't really want to play WHM or RDM or BRD or some other job, but came come on that anyway because it's needed. Now, imagine how (un)happy they are at getting the gears they "need" instead of those gears for the jobs they actually want to play.

I know this well. I know 3 ls's that did this with me. First 2 got me whm equips and the 3rd blm equips. I really wanted to pimp out my rdm though since it is the job I love. (I must because I have multiple 75 rdms.) I did on occasion say that I would rather have X rdm equip instead of being awarded the current piece. Then members would encourage me to take the current piece and so on and I'd feel badly if I didn't so I would take it. I know it is partially my fault because I am too easy going at times but it was VERY disheartening to see the job that I love be neglected and another job that I hate (blm) be basically forced upon me. I never forced someone to outfit a job that they didn't want equips for when I was in leadership. In fact, I'm a firm believer in having someone pick the job they'd like to play and then actively recruit jobs that we are in need of instead of forcing people to play jobs they loathe.

Thats why I kind of don't understand the meaning of this thread. You need to know jobs and game dynamics before you can form an ls. If you don't, then you run into the issue of making people level jobs that they might not want to play in the long run. And that tends to ruin the shell in the long run and I'd rather join an ls with longevity than a flash in the pan.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Final Fantasy XIV Linkshell Recruiting

The best endgame linkshells run on an honor system and abide by it, at least for the important gears (and as I mentioned above, no one in a good endgame LS should be sweating the small stuff, whether they get lots of it or very little).

I don't doubt a need based system will equip the LS better for what it wants to do, and do so faster when done right.

The trouble is, not every member agree on exactly what it is the LS ought to do, nor how exactly (to equip the people) to do it. I think most of us can think of a personal case of two of people who don't really want to play WHM or RDM or BRD or some other job, but came come on that anyway because it's needed. Now, imagine how (un)happy they are at getting the gears they "need" instead of those gears for the jobs they actually want to play.

If an endgame LS evolved from long time stable group of friends, and rarely add new people, I can see that working out. Inevitably, though, you will have questions on who deserves which gear more/first. I think the formation of cliques (or "sub-grouping") is natural tendency of human beings, and most people cannot get away from favoritism completely.

Point system and other objective methods are the best way to reduce the influence personal feelings on loot distribution, and IMO is easier to get it working right than any need based system.

Points systems are just unnecessary bookkeeping and rarely are run fairly in any case; if people want to be jerks, they're going to be jerks no matter what method is used to decide who gets what.

I've been in many event groups in and out of my main LS with point systems. So far, I can't say any is/was run unfairly. They all share one characteristic: the points are updated regularly, and posted for all members to see so any error can be spotted and corrected.

[Kailea]

Re: Final Fantasy XIV Linkshell Recruiting

I have never been in a point based ls so I can't comment on the abuses of that system. I can attest to the abuses of allowing sacs/leader to make the decision on who gets what. In every single shell I've been in, the shellholder gets the final say with the sacs just suggesting where they'd like the piece of equip to go. I've ALWAYS seen this system abused and on several occasions I was a sac and saw it from the "inside". (And eventually I'd see it from the other side again because when there was a discussion between leadership, I'd stick up for the little guy or stand up and say if something wasn't fair.) There were times that I might not have gotten along with a member but I knew that he/she was the person that should get the item so I didn't hold how I felt about them against them. Too often I'd see comments between leadership about "I just CAN'T give it to so and so, I can't stand them." This type of immaturity drives me bonkers and its common in endgame. If leadership makes the decisions on who gets what, kiss major ass with the sacs/leader, volunteer for extra stuff, try to exp with them, and just basically stuff your nose up their asses and you'll get more mediocore stuff than other people. But if you aren't a real life friend/relative or the boyfriend/girlfriend of the shellholder, you probably won't get any of the really good endgame gear for a very long time.

my only endgame LS I have ever been in, used a point system, and it was great, and very fare, the points where even kept on a webpage on the LS homepage, for us to see where we stood, compared to other members.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Final Fantasy XIV Linkshell Recruiting

All a point system really does is force each individual to quantify his own "need". Too much greed, and you have no points left. (Of course with a bad LS, too much greed by a toadie, and suddenly the rules start to change.)

I have never been in a point based ls so I can't comment on the abuses of that system. I can attest to the abuses of allowing sacs/leader to make the decision on who gets what. In every single shell I've been in, the shellholder gets the final say with the sacs just suggesting where they'd like the piece of equip to go. I've ALWAYS seen this system abused and on several occasions I was a sac and saw it from the "inside". (And eventually I'd see it from the other side again because when there was a discussion between leadership, I'd stick up for the little guy or stand up and say if something wasn't fair.) There were times that I might not have gotten along with a member but I knew that he/she was the person that should get the item so I didn't hold how I felt about them against them. Too often I'd see comments between leadership about "I just CAN'T give it to so and so, I can't stand them." This type of immaturity drives me bonkers and its common in endgame. If leadership makes the decisions on who gets what, kiss major ass with the sacs/leader, volunteer for extra stuff, try to exp with them, and just basically stuff your nose up their asses and you'll get more mediocore stuff than other people. But if you aren't a real life friend/relative or the boyfriend/girlfriend of the shellholder, you probably won't get any of the really good endgame gear for a very long time.

[Raydeus]

Re: Final Fantasy XIV Linkshell Recruiting

I'd rather have gear that changed properties according to your main job. With active Augments specific to each job.

Now that would've been a great RMT armor set for the "scenarios" SE is selling.

[DakAttack]

Re: Final Fantasy XIV Linkshell Recruiting

If you could find gear in Dynamis that isn't job specific you could reduce certain issues, such as lotting on gear for a job you're not currently playing, or isn't your 'main', or whatever. If the gear supported a multitude of jobs, rather than just one, you get it and now you've got it for several jobs. This wouldn't solve the problem, but it would help.

Blizz attempted to offer tokens that can be earned just by defeating a boss, and after collecting a vast amount you can trade them in for a piece of armor or weapon. It's a good idea, but it doesn't really fit well. Why is this boss dropping a token? Where'd he get it from, and why can I redeem the tokens he drops for something else he drops? Where'd they get that? These tokens are obviously some kind of currency, but why does only seem to be important for bosses and NPCs to have?

SE has, what I think I can call, secondary economies through the use of conquest points and the like. Your nation or some other organization is offering their gratitude for the work you've done by the way of points or credits that you can then use to redeem relevant armor and weapons. You can buy San d'Orian gear through San d'Oria, or their consulate, etc. It's something you can sort of see in WoW, like BG marks, but when it comes to end-game raiding they took it too far.

What I mean is, like, you know, whatever. Need before greed is a nice concept and all, but at the end of the day it feels good to work hard for something without seeing it slip right out of your grasp. Defeating bosses for epic loot is a great thrill, but players should still have access to something they can use to better themselves without relying heavily on the luck of the drop and the luck of the draw. I think point systems accomplish this very nicely.

[Elwynn]

Re: Final Fantasy XIV Linkshell Recruiting

Straight point system is just better for anything large scale; either use bidding to determine point cost or use percentage reduction for items, as long as it works out so people with more points have to use more points for items, newcomers can catch up to old guards. That way, the worst can happen is that the 'need' person would get an item slightly after the 'want' person--but both were proven contributors to the LS--either the 'want' person works harder, or have longer history, that's all.

All a point system really does is force each individual to quantify his own "need". Too much greed, and you have no points left. (Of course with a bad LS, too much greed by a toadie, and suddenly the rules start to change.)

[Icemage]

Re: Final Fantasy XIV Linkshell Recruiting

^

The best endgame linkshells run on an honor system and abide by it, at least for the important gears (and as I mentioned above, no one in a good endgame LS should be sweating the small stuff, whether they get lots of it or very little).

Points systems are just unnecessary bookkeeping and rarely are run fairly in any case; if people want to be jerks, they're going to be jerks no matter what method is used to decide who gets what. The real trick is to get a group of people who aren't always looking out for only themselves, and who recognize when they're at a point where they don't really need every single piece of gear that drops that they "could" use.


Icemage

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Final Fantasy XIV Linkshell Recruiting

'Need' based system seems prone to manipulation; it's too easy for a leader to say "But X is now leveling/already has Y job and will be using this Z gear" when X is the leader's favorite. To reduce the chance that, a whole bunch of detailed rules on when/how/why someone can lot what would have to be written--and leaders will reserve the right to change those rules on the spot anyway because they're so complicated and cumbersome.

Straight point system is just better for anything large scale; either use bidding to determine point cost or use percentage reduction for items, as long as it works out so people with more points have to use more points for items, newcomers can catch up to old guards. That way, the worst can happen is that the 'need' person would get an item slightly after the 'want' person--but both were proven contributors to the LS--either the 'want' person works harder, or have longer history, that's all.

Aside from the basic "Can you equip this (soon)?" question, it seems a bit subjective to categorize 'need' vs. 'want'. This is a game, after all, and nothing is truly needed besides fun.

* * *

A player who solos melee style a lot on RDM will benefit far more than that other player who doesn't have a Brave Blade, hates PLD, and only brings PLD only if he's the only person available for PLD.

But, whether it's the RDM or the PLD or the WAR or the DNC, if an LS member gets the ToD and I can make the spawn window, I'd gladly go along to help. Who ever gets the ToD (and can use the sword) deserves it, I say, because he has showed me he wants it bad enough to get the ToD.

[Icemage]

Re: Final Fantasy XIV Linkshell Recruiting

Regarding the whole "need" vs "greed" thing, the point to keep in mind is that 80% of the gear you get at endgame doesn't really do more than look pretty, another 15% barely impacts your performance at all, which leaves just the very rare pieces of gear that's actually worth going after and will considerably improve your capabilities.

A mistake I see a lot is that people go out of their way to want the pretty baubles when they should really be focusing their attention on the small handful of items that will meaningfully complement their play style on a specific job.

You know you're in a good environment when something rare but mediocre drops and everyone plays Hot Potato racing to be the first to say "Not It!" because the gear isn't really very useful. In all of the LS I've seen that didn't have good attitudes, people would get all bent out of shape over lame drops (most Abjurations, the vast majority of relic armors, most HNM drops, etc.).

EDIT: TGM's example above about Joyeuse is an excellent showcase for this. RDMs do not need Joyeuse. I'm sorry, they just don't. I have one. They're useful, no doubt, but not as useful as they are to a Paladin. RDM should never, ever lot on Joyeuse when there's a Paladin around who needs it still. :/


Icemage

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Final Fantasy XIV Linkshell Recruiting

Ya when my kids were young I used to pound into them what a NEED was and what a WANT was. At times, I didn't think they'd ever get it. Then recently my son was talking about something he was mooning over and then turned to me and said "But I don't NEED it, I just WANT it." Really made me happy that it did sink in to at least one brain out of the two. LOL

And yes, its unfortunate that people do that with the Joyeuse. I never did get one myself because when we went for one I felt that there were others that could put it to more use than me. While I wanted one badly, I didn't really need one (for my rdms) so I'd pass to plds with no regrets. One time, I decided to pass for a pld that was in our pt and needed it and then another rdm decided he needed it more and out lotted the pld. I went from 0 to PISSED in .02 seconds! I have very little respect for people like that.

[Kailea]

Re: Final Fantasy XIV Linkshell Recruiting

More people DO need to adopt "need before greed". I've been playing endgame a long damn time and I've seen it deteriorate. You have players that have been in an ls or been doing endgame a long time and have been rewarded many pieces of gear. Sometimes their main job (job the enjoy playing the most) is nearly or fully outfitted and they want gear for other jobs. Along comes another player who is still outfitting his main job, which happens to be the job the older players wants equips for now, and he can't get any damn equips because the older player wants them more. The ls sees the older player as more beneficial to the shell so they dole the crap out to him and stiff another player. This builds a lot of animosity in ls's and I've seen it happen over and over and over.

Older players have usually been rewarded for their accomplishments already. At some point, they need to step aside and let other players get decent gear. The entire ls benefits when ALL of its players are equipped well and not a select portion. Yes, there are exceptions because you can't be constantly rewarding someone for spotty attendance or exping during events, etc. But hopefully those are a small minority of the ls, if not then start looking for a new one! LOL

I passed on a lot of gear in my day because what I had was decent and there were people that needed it more than I did. THIS needs to be more of the norm. Killing an NM is an accomplishment and gear drops are just the icing on that freshly baked cake. Eventually you'll get a reward but it doesn't have to be at the expense of someone else. Equip people that NEED it first. You don't NEED it if you have decent gear already and another dedicated ls member doesn't. Thats greed.

I agree with ya..... I was passed over for Jouse (how ever its spell) many times for people that "needed it" RDM, and WARs, THFs mostly..... yet I am a DNC who is also leveling PLD, sitting here, one who could truly use the sword to its fullest potential... and I get goose egg ;p

There has been many times in other places, where I have said "na you take it, I can get it later" because its something that I really did not HAVE to have, even though I wanted it.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Final Fantasy XIV Linkshell Recruiting

More people DO need to adopt "need before greed". I've been playing endgame a long damn time and I've seen it deteriorate. You have players that have been in an ls or been doing endgame a long time and have been rewarded many pieces of gear. Sometimes their main job (job the enjoy playing the most) is nearly or fully outfitted and they want gear for other jobs. Along comes another player who is still outfitting his main job, which happens to be the job the older players wants equips for now, and he can't get any damn equips because the older player wants them more. The ls sees the older player as more beneficial to the shell so they dole the crap out to him and stiff another player. This builds a lot of animosity in ls's and I've seen it happen over and over and over.

Older players have usually been rewarded for their accomplishments already. At some point, they need to step aside and let other players get decent gear. The entire ls benefits when ALL of its players are equipped well and not a select portion. Yes, there are exceptions because you can't be constantly rewarding someone for spotty attendance or exping during events, etc. But hopefully those are a small minority of the ls, if not then start looking for a new one! LOL

I passed on a lot of gear in my day because what I had was decent and there were people that needed it more than I did. THIS needs to be more of the norm. Killing an NM is an accomplishment and gear drops are just the icing on that freshly baked cake. Eventually you'll get a reward but it doesn't have to be at the expense of someone else. Equip people that NEED it first. You don't NEED it if you have decent gear already and another dedicated ls member doesn't. Thats greed.

[Karinya]

Re: Final Fantasy XIV Linkshell Recruiting

I don't agree that point systems are perfectly fine left in the hands of players.

How many times have you tracked your points and the points your leaders gave you just don't add up?
How many times have points magically appeared for sacks and leaders that didn't earn them.
How many times have linkshells conveniently dropped a selection of their members and merged with another shell just so the sacks and leaders could further their own agendas?

Zero times. And I wouldn't remain in a linkshell where I did see those things, nor would I expect any other player to remain in a linkshell where they would happen. Dishonest leadership is, and should be, a linkshell-destroying event. (For one thing, all those points you think you have are worth precisely zilch if the leaders are crooked.) *Maybe* some of the other players would trust each other enough to form a new shell without the old "leaders" (i.e. scammers) and their cronies. More likely they'd drift into a variety of other shells.

What the hell kind of player culture do you have on your server, anyway?

None of those things would be cured by guild point systems, since the leaders would still be the ones giving and reducing points. They might be cured by moving *everything* to systems like Assault Points or therion ichor, rather than actual drops that people can make up rules about who is allowed to lot and who is expected to pass, but I have a cynical faith in the ingenuity of corrupt assholes. They would find a new way to rip people off. The dishonesty of players can only be blocked by other players, and when the leader is dishonest, the only leverage the other players have is to leave the shell.

There's no drama with Assault Points, Imperial Standing or Allied Notes. Leaving numbers in the hands of players enables abuse. A guild that kicks members for getting the better of the leaders in points would still happen in a system-driven DKP, but players could quickly tell who was lying and that guild would lose community reputation for its abuse. Leaving it in the hands of players and rules subject to change on a whim its makes it much more difficult to see who's playing who. But a calculator, cold as it may be, cannot lie.

Keeping the records public makes them subject to player scrutiny and discussion. If your shell enables corruption by allowing secret recordkeeping, well, it's your decision to put that kind of unqualified trust in the recordkeeper. I hope it doesn't bite you in the ass, I really do, but I think it's a foolish decision. Secrecy breeds corruption, and it works the same way in LS politics as it does in RL politics. My Dynamis LS keeps a regularly updated attendance and points spreadsheet posted in the member forums where anyone can look at it and demand explanations if they think it's necessary. Nobody has dared try to screw with it with the whole LS (potentially) watching, or maybe we've just been lucky to have honest officers.

But I don't think it's really luck. People taking the shape of their incentives works on social structures too. Dishonest people are drawn to opportunities to get away with dishonesty. When they have to conduct their business with everyone watching, they'll do it in a way that doesn't piss everyone off - or they'll be caught and be gone, before they can do too much damage.

Be careful what kind of linkshells you invest your time in.

"Need before greed" - for one - needs a major comeback. We'll be on equal footing this time to determine the how the community is shaped.

Right, because everyone can totally agree on what need is. It's a nifty sounding slogan, but in practice it's about as useful as saying "We'll just do what's fair.", and for the same reason - vague terms covering up the actual issues.

One of FFXI's strengths is that the player who is there on BRD can still get drops for his MNK - you can't do that in EQ or WoW, and a lot of people (I have heard) get horribly screwed over by that when they try to work on an alt of a less-wanted class but keep getting asked to come as something else. (I think this is the flexibility you were asking to have reduced. IMO, if you want less flexibility, you know where to find it. Hopefully not FFXIV.) Conversely, people sometimes get pissy when the player who is there on BRD wants drops for his MNK - but he's only there on BRD in the first place in order to contribute more to the run. If you don't let him get drops he wants, why is he in the shell at all? - and soon enough, he won't be.

It's true, and often argued by people in the MNK-only player's position, that if you expect the player who has BRD to be asked to come as BRD again next run, MNK gear in his hands doesn't help him contribute more to next run than he did to this run. But he'll still be contributing more to next run than the player who only has MNK regardless of which one gets the drop now - because, by hypothesis, the run is short on BRDs and another BRD is more useful than another MNK, or why was he asked to come as BRD in the first place? If he's willing to level and bring BRD when that helps the shell more, he should be rewarded for that, not punished. Because players respond to their incentives, and if you put people into a box when they have healing/support/other high-demand jobs available, then they won't make them available if they don't want to go into that box.

One person in my Dynamis linkshell, who I won't name, is well-known in the shell for collecting drops just to fill his mog house. But anyone who levels a job to 55 will automatically beat his level 50 lootwhoring, because that's what the LS rules dictate (for pieces that all the 70+, 65+, and 60+ players of that job already have or don't want to lot on). Effectively this already *is* need before greed (assuming you agree he doesn't *need* a better-equipped mannequin), although if he actually leveled all those jobs it might be another matter. (He could still only comment one at a time and win one piece per run like everybody else, though, no matter how many years he's been with the shell.)