Final Fantasy XIV Linkshell Recruiting

[Feba]

Re: Final Fantasy XIV Linkshell Recruiting

I don't think going without levels means you lose an easy way for players to distinguish themselves. People in EVE talk about their skillpoints, which is basically just a sort of variable time clock (based on a few 'learning' stats that change how quickly you learn skills, and how good you are about instantly switching to new skills). It doesn't matter if someone invested millions of skill points in crafting and mining, and someone else put all of theirs into combat; people will find a way to talk about their superiority. If nothing else, they'll fall back on "I have #G!", or just "I've been playing since 20XX!"

And I think you misunderstood me. I'm not against integrating point control into the game, I just don't see why you want it to be tied to the guild system instead of to the player themselves. You say you want to get the system out of where players can fuck with it, but then tie it back into the LS system people fuck up so much. So basically, you could screw with someone's points, but you'd basically have to kick them out of the shell. If you're going to go that far, why even leave an LS with the ability to still be dicks to someone at all? Why is it worse for an LS that screws you over if they can still keep you than if an LS can screw you over if they have to dump you?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Final Fantasy XIV Linkshell Recruiting

Why would I want to link points to a guild system?

Probably because one of FFXI's biggest failures is that the gameplay design is so flexible that unless you're on a densely populated server, reputation means absolutely nothing so long as you have the "right" jobs.

While we hear time and again that all servers are "the same," they really aren't. They're only the same in the sense that starter cities are empty and people tend to favor the same EXP areas as anywhere else. But job availablity vs server population is a completely different matter.

For one, the Japanese are far more shrewd on an highly populated server. That BRD you had on a low pop server that every JP would invite? It doesn't mean shit when the population of japanese goes up much higher than what you had before. By the same token, your BRD means less to NA and EU shells, too. And if you develop a bad reputation on Odin or Bahamut you can color your endgame days over. Your jobs don't mean anything over there because they have more than enough people to replace the bad player.

But a lower pop server like Titan or Pandy the assholes tend to win out. You need that BRD. JPs are more likely to take what they can get rather than shun anyone that doesn't know japanese. Your endgame shells are more than likely going to take very sleazy player they can because their jobs retain value even if their reputations aren't sound.

In FFXIV, reputation really needs to mean something. I think in many ways that the flexibility of FFXI's job system has just as many downsides as upsides. I'd like to see something a bit more restricting this time around.

Trust me, I've seen the totalitarian bullshit that goes down in other MMOs. Its because the people who made the games did nothing that kept players in check. They didn't factor in the psychological aspects of the game.

In some ways, I already see FFXIV attacking the psychological elements of an MMO game. Removing levels of experience removes a bit of conventional chest-thumping, don't you think? I'm sure people will eventually find some means to distinguish their characters, but they won't be able to say "I have eight level 75 jobs with full merits." Many of us have come to learn that statement doesn't mean they're not complete noobs, but plenty of people continue to think it does mean some level of credibility.

They did it with Dynamis, Limbus and other endgame functions in FFXI, forcing cool-down times or trade-offs. Surely this was also to ensure other people got to do the content, but FFXIV's stuff is probably going to see a lot more instancing. Even so, I hope they consider a cool-down timer anyway just to say, "Hey, go have a life for a bit, mmkay?"

Everything the STF did was pretty much psychological warfare when it comes to RMT, Sage Sundi was pretty much upfront about that. While the gilseller is resilient, the changes did dampen RMT activity quite dramatically. No doubt many of these kinds of measures will be in-place for FFXIV from day one.

Anyway, I want to see some of the "enablers" in the game design done away with. Point systems in the hands of players chief among them. Other MMOs have done it, done it well and it can be done in FFXIV. My problem with point systems in the hands of players is that when that happened, FFXI became too much like the real life I already knew. Totally corporate approaches to endgame and an emphasis on efficiency over fun. Officers of endgame shells tended to be as full of shit as the management at the jobs I've had do. Leave it 100% in the hands of players and that's how it ends up.

[Feba]

Re: Final Fantasy XIV Linkshell Recruiting

But BBQ, if you're acknowledging all of these faults that come with any group of humans, why would you want to link points to the LS system?

Just have points linked to the events/encounters you go to. Why should a linkshell have anything to do with it, if you're trying to stamp out corruption?

I don't think that LS, at least as they're used in FFXI, should have an internal points system if it's going to be built into the game. And lots of LS that like their points systems would lose them if SE moved in on the field.

Some games have Guild Points, which generally go towards upgrading the guild, and not for other things, but such a system could be easily adapted to show contributions to the group.

For example:

* Putting items/money into the guild coffers could give you some points value, as determined by the leadership. Taking items/money out would detract.

[an example of this, I've been out all day mining. I bring in the raw material, and leave it in the guild's coffers. I gain 2000 points for the value of the item; whether set by the Market, or by the guild leadership (for example, they could increase the points values on items the guild badly needs, but which are too rare to just buy). Guild member B pulls out the materials I put in a few hours later, and is deducted by 2000 points. After he synths them into more valuable items, he puts them back in and gets 3000 points; for a net gain of 1000 points.]

* Guild leadership could assign 'credit' ratings. People who have earned the trust of the guild leadership could have an unlimited right to check out items; newcomers could have a very low amount of leeway, or none at all. You could even be required to keep your points in the positive, like a checking account.
* Guild members could transfer points to each other in exchange for favors-- for example, you help me with a quest, I give you some of my points. You let me have a drop I want, I give you points..
* Guild leaders could add and remove points from members, as reward, punishment, or in exchange for services (for example, if you have the entire guild work for an hour just for you, like some parts of relic weapon quests, or paying for drops)

Such a system would keep leadership corruption contained within the guild; it wouldn't really effect you. If you want to be really thorough, such a system could even require the guild to pay you back in gold to make up for the points you have in it if they want to kick you out. That way you can't get someone to contribute a lot of time, items, effort, money, etc. and then kick them out before they get the Big Prize they were working for. That could also be applied in reverse, requiring you to pay a guild to leave it.

Or rather, being forced to pay back people after they leave, so you aren't stuck together. The money could simply be deducted from whatever they take in until it's paid off; like some real life debts.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Final Fantasy XIV Linkshell Recruiting

I don't think that would actually help. An active, involved leadership can develop and maintain its own point system and decide what role officers will play (whether they have sacks or not).

I don't agree that point systems are perfectly fine left in the hands of players.

How many times have you tracked your points and the points your leaders gave you just don't add up?
How many times have points magically appeared for sacks and leaders that didn't earn them.
How many times have linkshells conveniently dropped a selection of their members and merged with another shell just so the sacks and leaders could further their own agendas?

There's no drama with Assault Points, Imperial Standing or Allied Notes. Leaving numbers in the hands of players enables abuse. A guild that kicks members for getting the better of the leaders in points would still happen in a system-driven DKP, but players could quickly tell who was lying and that guild would lose community reputation for its abuse. Leaving it in the hands of players and rules subject to change on a whim its makes it much more difficult to see who's playing who. But a calculator, cold as it may be, cannot lie.

No system is going to be 100% perfect, but a system can be created in FFXIV there's less abuse.

Part of reducing the abuse will have to come from community climate, though. I'm hoping that with FFXIV, much of the mindless adherence to the JP style of play is eschewed in favor or something a little more progressive and western. "Need before greed" - for one - needs a major comeback. We'll be on equal footing this time to determine the how the community is shaped.

[Karinya]

Re: Final Fantasy XIV Linkshell Recruiting

See, but that's the thing - event Linkshells respect your life. HNMLSes are essentially no different from the "one guild only" mentality. The all-encompassing shell does seek to suck your life away.

In some games, every guild is the only guild you can ever have (until you leave it). I think that encourages totalitarian mentalities more than otherwise.

SE needs to go somewhere in the middle. A guild system that encourages some level of commitment and internalized DKP system, but with the freedom to have more than one (without consuming personal inventory space preferably). There also need to be better management tools, the ability to pass leadership and something more to the role of officers than "guy who recruits new people."

I don't think that would actually help. An active, involved leadership can develop and maintain its own point system and decide what role officers will play (whether they have sacks or not).

I agree on being able to pass on the shell leadership without disbanding the shell, but for the rest, shells able to make their own rules are more flexible than one-size-fits-all rules imposed by the game system that shells would have to work within or work around.

Ultimately, a shell is what the shellholder makes of it, and other players will stay or leave depending on whether it suits their needs. I think any amount of built-in structure will only get in the way of some shells, and be ignored by others. Even the devs can't make a competent leadership.

[Feba]

Re: Final Fantasy XIV Linkshell Recruiting

I am left for two weeks as the sanctioned "leader", but only as a sack. And they're all looking to me to do something about it.

yeah, this is something I don't remember ever finding a suitable workaround for in any guild system; dealing with a leader's absence. If I remember right, EVE used permissions for everything, so you could set up rather separate 'roles' for everyone, like you would on a multiuser computer system. Give people access to what they need. But I don't remember EVE corps having a method to cope with a leader that simply isn't around, although they could have something. Having to disband and reform a group because a leader up and stopped playing, for whatever reason (including their death), is not good, because someone almost always gets lost in the transition. FFXI's nontransferable shells make this even worse.

There need to be better systems in place, generally speaking, to take over in a leader's absence. Heck, even here on FFXIO, PiNG is almost completely absent, and even though Taskmage is the de facto boss, he doesn't have the authority to deal with some things-- which means delays in dealing with problems.

And there's just no easy solution to these problems-- you can put them to a vote of lower leaders to give them the authority to deal with it, but then what happens if the leader comes back and kicks out everyone who he feels decided 'wrong'? What if a group of people use it to usurp power-- what if they divide the group instead of using it to hold it together? You could require the owner to maintain some degree of activity, but what if he's on vacation? What if he's studying for finals, but everyone knows how to contact him if there are any problems to be dealt with?

Naturally, most people won't want to give up power once they have it, either. Even if you can transfer power, it's very hard to just go up to the leader and say "Hey, you're really not meeting our needs anymore. We appreciate all of the hard work and sacrifice, but we feel it would be best if you stepped aside and let someone else take care of it.". Of course, the people most likely to be making comments like this are also those most likely to be filling the power vacuum they leave, which brings greed into it. If a leader feels like someone wants power for themselves, why wouldn't they naturally try to keep that power?

[Balfree]

Re: Final Fantasy XIV Linkshell Recruiting

I wouldnt say a hat but something like an arm-band or a shoulder pad, a belt, or a small cape... that is actually an idea that i'd LOVE to see done, and not just the same for everyone, one LS could use the cape, another could use the band.

[Gyotsha]

Re: Final Fantasy XIV Linkshell Recruiting

Edit: Perhaps a hat!

I call top-hats!

[Maju]

Re: Final Fantasy XIV Linkshell Recruiting

In any case, it seems kind of ridiculous to recruit for a game that won't even exist for over a year minimum. You can't possibly know much about the players - not just whether or not they will be skilled and knowledgeable about a game that doesn't exist yet, but even whether or not they are jerks. In fact, the one thing you *do* know is that they are willing to join a linkshell with no standards (on *either* of those dimensions) and with no knowledge of what the other members are like (ditto). I wouldn't consider that a hopeful sign.

Exactly my thoughts. It seems like these clans and guilds whatnot pop out like mushrooms in the rain whenever a new MMO is in the horizon. I bet 90% of them never materialize and 9% just collapse due to wide spread suckage within the ranks.

[Empedocles]

Re: Final Fantasy XIV Linkshell Recruiting

One thing I did like about WoW Guilds (I'm about 99% certain it appeared in MMOs before WoW but I'm not sure what they have/had as I never played any of them) is the Tabards.

I'd like there to be some sort of clothing that you can wear to show your Linkshell/Guild/Clan/Crew/blah-blah that doesn't take up any spaces that stat-boosting gear goes into, instead of only having different coloured orbs beside your name.

Edit: Perhaps a hat!

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Final Fantasy XIV Linkshell Recruiting

IMO, the ability to belong to multiple LSs and switch between their chat channels at will is one of the best innovations in FFXI compared to other MMOs. I don't know what the WoW devs were thinking of to not plagiarize it, but I certainly hope the FFXIV devs will have the sense not to go back to the old school one LS/guild per player limit. It just encourages totalitarian guilds that try to take over your whole life in game. The reality of multiple LSs makes event LSs respect their players' activities outside the event calendar (at least, few are willing to join a LS that doesn't) and allows players to expand their social circles by meeting some people through a social LS, some through Dynamis or other event LSs.

See, but that's the thing - event Linkshells respect your life. HNMLSes are essentially no different from the "one guild only" mentality. The all-encompassing shell does seek to suck your life away.

SE needs to go somewhere in the middle. A guild system that encourages some level of commitment and internalized DKP system, but with the freedom to have more than one (without consuming personal inventory space preferably). There also need to be better management tools, the ability to pass leadership and something more to the role of officers than "guy who recruits new people."

I'm actually amazed how inflated egos get for being able to pearl others in this game. The only real useful feature of being an officer is the ability to get rid of assholes. Getting rid of the sack that is an asshole can only be done by a leader, though. In the absence of a leader, your only tool for getting rid of assholes is psychological warfare >.>

I remember this time other sacks were complaining to me about this one sack that was alienating all our members, giving them the "One Guild for your life" BS we didn't encourage, coming on drunk and belligerent toward other members every day basically. I couldn't stand her, most other people could not stand her and here I am left for two weeks as the sanctioned "leader", but only as a sack. And they're all looking to me to do something about it.

Not fun in the slightest.

So I kicked her boyfriend and her other friend. They were obnoxious, too. If I had been able to kick her, they would have had something to say about it, so after approaching her and her getting irate and threatening to blackmail me somehow (lol) I figured it was bound to work the other way around. She would repearl them and I would simply kick them again.

Was it the best way to handle it? Probably not, I'm not an expert on dealing with the drunk and mentally ill. I will say that it worked and made the linkshell better to deal with for the duration of the leader's absence. Didn't make him happy that he had to sort out things with her and officially dismiss her from the LS when he returned, but it did work.

It should be a bit less stressful to get rid of unwanted people, though. So a feature that passes on leadership would be a nice thing, hell, let the original leader be able to set the terms and duration of new leadership just so someone doesn't try a powergrab.

[Caspian]

Re: Final Fantasy XIV Linkshell Recruiting

You know you can make a moderated chat channel to serve your needs, works just like a guild, you can even /who a channel.

/shrug

Yeah, I'm just too lazy to make one. I'm in enough user-created channels as it is.

[InuTrunks]

Re: Final Fantasy XIV Linkshell Recruiting

Aside from them eating up inventory space, LS's are one thing I very much prefer over the guild system that WoW uses. With WoW your guild is pretty much your life. It especially makes it difficult when you want to do endgame content with a group more serious and dedicated to it, but don't want to be pretty much cutoff from your friends in anything other than /tells. Its too much of an either/or system.

You know you can make a moderated chat channel to serve your needs, works just like a guild, you can even /who a channel.

/shrug

[Karinya]

Re: Final Fantasy XIV Linkshell Recruiting

IMO, the ability to belong to multiple LSs and switch between their chat channels at will is one of the best innovations in FFXI compared to other MMOs. I don't know what the WoW devs were thinking of to not plagiarize it, but I certainly hope the FFXIV devs will have the sense not to go back to the old school one LS/guild per player limit. It just encourages totalitarian guilds that try to take over your whole life in game. The reality of multiple LSs makes event LSs respect their players' activities outside the event calendar (at least, few are willing to join a LS that doesn't) and allows players to expand their social circles by meeting some people through a social LS, some through Dynamis or other event LSs.

It wouldn't hurt if they didn't take up inventory as such but had their own system, but really, we have no way of knowing how inventory works in FFXIV or whether the limits will be as limiting as they were in the early days of FFXI.

In any case, it seems kind of ridiculous to recruit for a game that won't even exist for over a year minimum. You can't possibly know much about the players - not just whether or not they will be skilled and knowledgeable about a game that doesn't exist yet, but even whether or not they are jerks. In fact, the one thing you *do* know is that they are willing to join a linkshell with no standards (on *either* of those dimensions) and with no knowledge of what the other members are like (ditto). I wouldn't consider that a hopeful sign.

[Feba]

Re: Final Fantasy XIV Linkshell Recruiting

I like the way EVE handles it (insert everyone going "WE KNOW ALREADY" here); you can form chat channels at will for various purposes, including social communication, but there's also a very robust "Corporation" and "Alliance" system (Corp, basically a guild; alliance, a corp made up of other corps).

Lets you hang out with a group of friends that you like talking to, but don't often play with, while also giving the tools to easily and effectively manage large groups of players working together toward some end. Not that there aren't casual corps, but every one that I was in did at least a bit of working together, pooling resources, helping as needed, and so on.

I think finding a good middle ground between that casual, multiple association, purpose built groups that SE has basically perfected (in a very simple solution, which I must admit I am biased towards), and the All-For-One-And-One-For-All system that most other MMOs go with is the best solution. Give people something to belong to, but don't let that bar entry from other groups either.