Been awhile since the WHM's had a discussion

[Amele]

Re: Been awhile since the WHM's had a discussion

All /nin or /drg and I don't THINK there was any kind of regen gear. The one I was noticing in particular was a mnk, but don't ask me what he was wearing...but I love mnks for regen measurements because they have such huge HP bars, that they can be missing a large # of HP without missing a large % and triggering other whm's to cure them.

probably Melee cyclas then (relic body, regen effect and HP+5%) although there's six or seven other pieces melee of various jobs might wear.

Moving? What do I need to move for? Do I gotta run to the side so the mob doesn't hit me?
Recast? I don't cast the same thing twice in a row, that's an even worse waste of time while I stand around and wait for the spell to come up again. The REASON we have tiers of spell is so we don't have to cast the same one over and over.

certain higher tier fights require more careful positioning/actively running out of the range of certain large radius abilities and/or kiting a mob in a large area (especially certain low-man strategies) so moving can be quite relevant depending on what you're doing.

likewise with multiple tiers: you can back to back alternate certain spells much easier with a slightly reduced recast (mostly III/V or III/IV or IV/V depending on what you're doing) which is necessary in some circumstances short term.

I can see the benefit of reducing interrupt rates, at the same time, with a low enimity regen build, interrupt rates become negligible anyway...which is one MORE reason I prefer regen tactics to cure tactics.

assuming you have the luxury of being out of aoe-range normally, yes. not every fight (and especially not higher tier fights) give you this luxury. - so there are situations where being that little bit less likely to be interrupted will help.

But by contrast, if I was cure-speed merited, I would be standing around AFTER the effect point waiting for the cast bar to reach 100% before I could start casting another spell.
Wasted time, imho. I'd rather be moving on to the next in my priority list.

it's not really wasted time if you would be spending it anyway (it's not like meriting cure speed makes your spells slower or something!)


basically, same thing I said in responses to Icemage: both are viable choices for merit and both have their place.

[Callisto]

Re: Been awhile since the WHM's had a discussion

The other thing about cure cast time that I'm highly skeptical of is cure cast time =/= haste. As I understand it, cure cast time lowers the EFFECT POINT of the spell, but does not speed up the casting SPEED at all. Ergo, even though you already spent the MP and handed out the HP, you're still casting the same bloody spell and can't move on to other tasks.

Just a note from a FC5 RDM on this: No the casting bar doesn't move faster, but if the spell casts at a low %, you can start casting your next spell before the bar is done getting to 100%. Example, say I cast Stoneskin or Raise, something with a reasonably long casting time. At FC5 my spells fire off around 45-50%, but the casting bar is still climbing after the spell has taken affect. Once the casting animation reaches the poing where my hand lowers back down, I can start casting the next spell, regardless of whether the bar has finished getting to 100% or not. The rest of the bar is just cut off by the casting bar of the new spell. Generally the point where I can do this is when the bar is at about 80-85%, saving me between 1-4 seconds depending on the spell.

As far as if 'Cure Speed' works like true Fast Cast in that recast timers are also lowered I'm not sure about. But taking off of the casting speed will allow you to move on to the next task a couple of seconds earlier, which in an endgame situation can many times make the difference between a tank living or dying.

[Icemage]

Re: Been awhile since the WHM's had a discussion

Echo what Callisto says above: Casting speed doesn't affect recast timers at all, but it does give you the opportunity to start your next action (spell, attack, whatever) as soon as the spell takes effect, so yes, your total casting time is indeed reduced.

There's also some sort of limit to cure speed; with Cure Clogs (15%), merits (20%), and /RDM (10%), I don't get the expected cast at 35% on the spellcasting bar.. it's more like 41 or 42% as best I can tell.

Not that anyone is going to be using /RDM much, but it's a curious point nonetheless.


Icemage

[Amele]

Re: Been awhile since the WHM's had a discussion

Echo what Callisto says above: Casting speed doesn't affect recast timers at all, but it does give you the opportunity to start your next action (spell, attack, whatever) as soon as the spell takes effect, so yes, your total casting time is indeed reduced.
There's also some sort of limit to cure speed; with Cure Clogs (15%), merits (20%), and /RDM (10%), I don't get the expected cast at 35% on the spellcasting bar.. it's more like 41 or 42% as best I can tell.
Not that anyone is going to be using /RDM much, but it's a curious point nonetheless.
Icemage

did you do a rigorous test? 40% is the 'halfway' mark from the baseline trigger point, so I'm curious if there is a floor or not. (it sounds like you may have found one but I would be curious what you did to test this)

[Callisto]

Re: Been awhile since the WHM's had a discussion

I'm currently 31/75 towards a Loq Earring, I'll test this both before and after I get one. It can be hard to tell just by eyeballing it sometimes, but if I understand the math correctly:

the normal trigger point is 80%; my FC5 would reduce casting time by 40%. I'm not sure if that means 40% of the casting bar, or 40% of the 80% trigger point though, but based on the eyeballing I'm leaning towards the latter.

If that's the case it's knocking off 40% of 80 which is 32, so my trigger point would now be 48%. I want to say when I look at it, it seems more like 44%~, but it depends on what I'm casting. Longer casting spells seem to cast at a lower % than faster ones, but maybe that's just the way it appears b/c the actual casting animation once the spell triggers isn't any faster during fast spells.

With the Loq Earring my casting time reduction would be 42%, as the earring has a reduction of 2%. 42% of 80 is 33.6, which would bring my trigger point to about 46%.

If the casting time reduction is actually a % of the full 100% casting bar, and not of the 80% trigger, it would be an even greater reduction, with my trigger points without and with Loq Earring being 40% and 38%, respectively.

I'll test all this out. If something in my math or understanding of the mechanics looks flawed lemme know, I haven't taken a math class in about 6 years now and I drink alot, I'm not sure how much of my computing ability I've still retained.

[Icemage]

Re: Been awhile since the WHM's had a discussion

My understanding of fast cast and cure speed traits is that each 1% reduces the required time on the spellcasting bar by a full 1%. Each RDM trait gives 5% improvement, each piece of RDM AF with the trait gives an additional 5% so with Fast Cast 5 (3 RDM traits, AF, AF2) you should be looking at 80% base - 25% = 55% on the spellcasting bar for spell completion.

As I mentioned above, my (non-rigorous, how would you test it for certain?) tests left me with spellcasts on Curaga IV at no better than about 41% on the casting bar, give or take 1-2%. Curaga IV was used because it has the longest casting time of any Cure spell. The results I saw were not consistent with what I should have been seeing as WHM/RDM with Cure Clogs, level 5 Cure speed merit and /RDM subjob (80% - 15% - 20% - 10% = 35% projected activation time).


Icemage

[WishMaster3K]

Re: Been awhile since the WHM's had a discussion

Certain gear doesn't always give the same Fast Cast.

For instance, Loc Erring is only 1 or 2% reduction in casting time.

Look it up on the wiki

[Amele]

Re: Been awhile since the WHM's had a discussion

My understanding of fast cast and cure speed traits is that each 1% reduces the required time on the spellcasting bar by a full 1%. Each RDM trait gives 5% improvement, each piece of RDM AF with the trait gives an additional 5% so with Fast Cast 5 (3 RDM traits, AF, AF2) you should be looking at 80% base - 25% = 55% on the spellcasting bar for spell completion.
As I mentioned above, my (non-rigorous, how would you test it for certain?) tests left me with spellcasts on Curaga IV at no better than about 41% on the casting bar, give or take 1-2%. Curaga IV was used because it has the longest casting time of any Cure spell. The results I saw were not consistent with what I should have been seeing as WHM/RDM with Cure Clogs, level 5 Cure speed merit and /RDM subjob (80% - 15% - 20% - 10% = 35% projected activation time).
Icemage

it's 'double' the % for casting time reduction. so in theory a full merit whm/rdm with clogs should be seeing:


80 - 15 - 20 - 20 = 25% which should've been quite obvious versus 41% ish

I'm betting there's a floor at 40% or so (conveniently the same amount that a rdm/x in chapeau and tabard reaches)

if you run the math in the other direction (80% * .45 = 36% however) so the discrepancy might be down to lag/etc.


curaga IV is how I would test it too, I usually test in la thiene plateau, far enough away from the telepoint crystal that it's not being drawn, in an attempt to minimize everything that might cause spell/frame slowdown. one good way to test would be to cast without say, the cure clogs. and see if it makes a visible difference.

[Kirsteena]

Re: Been awhile since the WHM's had a discussion

I had to raise my meripo last night (bad links, shit happens), and was playing about with Fast Cast while raising them. I've got all the Fast Cast Gear rdm can wear, and raise was firing around about the 45% mark. Maybe a bit before, maybe a bit after. My connection at home is a bit crap so hard to tell at times.

I think the floor will be somewhere about the 42% mark. The earring doesn't make a substantial difference, but that extra 1 or 2% might be fun to play about with.

I guess I should test with whm at some point, once I have merited cure cast time. Blm is getting my merit love atm.

[Irisjir Callard]

Re: Been awhile since the WHM's had a discussion

Just a note from a FC5 RDM on this: No the casting bar doesn't move faster, but if the spell casts at a low %, you can start casting your next spell before the bar is done getting to 100%.

REALLY NOW.


Well this is news to me. I was under the impression one couldn't cast until the cast bar had finished.

This opens up all KINDS of intriguing possibilities to me.


As far as I care, then, if I can start casting after the EFFECT POINT, we might as well just say the bar moves faster. In which case cure speed merits are imho a much more viable option.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: Been awhile since the WHM's had a discussion

/sarcasm

?

[Irisjir Callard]

Re: Been awhile since the WHM's had a discussion

no, that genuinely was news to me, lol.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: Been awhile since the WHM's had a discussion

OH lol... Well I always noticed that on longer spells, such as Raise or Stoneskin, I can start casting before they're fully done, mostly because I finish around 65ish. I think. I only have an AF hat as FC additional gear.

[Callisto]

Re: Been awhile since the WHM's had a discussion

I was going to test out my FC using Reraise, since I can cast that as both my RDM and my WHM, and it has a nice long casting time which makes it easier to see what % it's casting at. I'll do so tonight and post it tomorrow.

[Icemage]

Re: Been awhile since the WHM's had a discussion

REALLY NOW.

Well this is news to me. I was under the impression one couldn't cast until the cast bar had finished.

This opens up all KINDS of intriguing possibilities to me.

As far as I care, then, if I can start casting after the EFFECT POINT, we might as well just say the bar moves faster. In which case cure speed merits are imho a much more viable option.

I can confirm that you can indeed start casting a new spell the moment the spell activation triggers.

Note that you MUST have good timing for this; the kicker is that the spellcasting bar will trigger, but you must start the next action before the bar hits 100% or you're going to lock into the animation and won't start your next action until the animation ends.

This is very noticeable with lots of Fast Cast and/or Cure Speed, which is why most RDMs are aware of it. Bards, too, are well aware of this, as they have the longest spellcasting bars in the game and can take advantage of this feature even with no Fast Cast gear equipped at all.


Icemage