Charging for Raise

[knight64]

Wow now i was under the impression this was supposed to be a fun game.Does the fun end at lvl 40:confused: I really cant comment on alot of whats said only because im not that far yet,but just for the record,I usually ask if someone needs raise called for them and if so,my macro ends with plz.
Also since becoming PLD,whenever im on my way somewhere if i see anyone who might be in trouble ill stand and watch a minute and cure I or II as needed with the hopes someone may remember me when i need a raise.Maybe im just reading the wrong posts....where are the pre 40 posts?I always thought one of the basics of the game was to work with others to a common goal.


as someone else put it,thats my 2gils worth
take it or leave it,either way im moving on

[Omniblast]

Originally posted by Kilgraw
Just a little raise story I'd like to share with this happy group of people.

One day I was travelling down Jugner Forest on a chocobo, and ran into a corpse lying in the middle of the pathway. I wasn't really going anywhere at the time, so I get off my chocobo to give the guy a raise. As I'm raising the guy, I suddenly get a /tell saying "F' Off" (minus the cencorship). Now I'm confused as hell as to who would give me this /tell and for what possible reason. I take another look at the guy I'm raising and see his name, and you guessed it, it was the same as the guy who gave me the vulgar /tell. Once this all clicked in, I asked the guy why the devil he's telling me to f' off. A couple seconds later he tells me he's got a Whm friend on his way to come raise II him. I then think to myself, ok he's got a raise II coming... who cares. The language wasn't needed. He just needed to say a raise wasn't needed, and maybe even go so far as to thank me for getting off my chocobo to try anyway. But no, I got a f' off.

True story. This guy was my first and only person to reach my /blist.

What level was that guy? If he died in Jugnar Forest, along the main path, he must be less than level 30 or 40. RAISE II doesn't work on anyone less than level 50 (from what I've been told, it just acts like a raise I).

[tdh]

Originally posted by Merlyne`
A WHM that charges for raise is still a WHM going out of their way to help you. Them making profit makes it worth their wasted time to alleviate your inabilities. It's generally your fault if your PT comes unprepared; if you don't feel like paying, tough cookies. Find someone else that will go out of their way to help you. It's amazing how people complain about this when Teleport service is a similar case (that people should be grateful for).

This I disaggree with that. A WHM that's charging me for a Raise isn't going out of their way to help me. They're going out of their way to help themselves. If they have a problem with rendering services and getting paid for it, that's their problem, and nobody should feel bad for them otherwise. It's their business model, not mine.

Change that to somebody who's not charging me for a Raise, and I completely agree with you.

I've never paid for a Raise, and I've never approved of those that do charge for it. I do however "tip" a WHM for going out of their way doing me a huge favor. I've actually given a WHM 10k for Raising darn near an entire beach full of dead Bogy victims, and they didn't expect a single gil for it.

I can understand charging for Teleports. You're actually going some place, and have to Warp back. I've questioned people charging for Warp II. (You don't have to go anywhere, and if you're just standing around, where's the inconvenience? If you're in an EXP party, I can dig the payment, since the party's now inconvenienced. Even then, maybe they should pay the party instead of the BLM. lol) But those are just my thoughts.

[Tamari]

raise

i do not charge for raise i do not charge for Powerlving i dont think i charge for anything even teleports money is really not a issue to me i have a boyfriend that loves me very much and we go farm together i sit alot in dunes at selbina killing gobs and bogy's they bring in i get the tell requests and the power lv requests i take donations i dont say 500 gil for raise or power lv
i have gotten 25k in tottal from powerlving a pt in dunes once i did not ask they just traded me and gave me the money and if im on foot some where and see somebody dead i raise them heal them and keep running or if i see a person fighting something thats about to die i will heal them

[locus]

Off topic:
I'm more amazed by the fact some people actually think BLM isn't an asset to a party. Whenever we're struggling for a chain 5 or we need to kill something really fast cause of a bad link, or if you want to kill HNM that take 2 digit damage from WS skills or if you go to Dynamis or etc etc etc etc...

Pre-level 30, there isn't a real reason to do renkei without a blm. (Sure, rdm can mb, but there's no way in hell they'll ever match BLM), BLM can make BLMx6 parties and they are godawfully impressive. Whoever thinks blm isn't an asset needs to be hit in the head with a 4 digit thundaga 3. Even Rangers can't crank damage on demand and end a battle as reliably as BLM can. Having too little damage is a larger sin than having less effective healing.

Slightly on topic:
Icemage, you're being rather silly about this. Different people have different opinions about what constitutes a good party and so some people dislike having Whms thinking it "slows exp". It all balances off - some people think the world of whms. Here's an example:

At level 75, recently for the last few months there's been this incredibly weird trend of getting online and immediately getting a party invite despite having no seek tag at all. At that level, people chain VT monsters, there aren't enough monsters to go around to make "RDM/BRD/BLM" necessary, we usually go to really dangerous places like Ru Avitau where finding a WHM that will go out of the way to raise 3 you is HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA (sorry, laughing too much, people that have played the game for 2 years still get lost in Ru Avitau not to mention it's freaking far AND dangerous) and not getting raise 3 (unlucky golem smash will potentially kill you) is unthinkable - you're looking at 20 100ish exp monsters worth of exp lost. That's about an hour of time wasted. Raise 3 makes it 2-3 monsters.

Sorry, EVERYONE who goes to Ru Avitau learns to bring a whm.

Point being: If you want a party that badly, YOU make it. Don't sit on your butt with your seek tag up and whine. JPs in general really hate making parties. Being able to get one just by sitting down and going semiafk isn't an entitlement, it's a perk of the job.

On topic: Related to that above bit - Most JPs think it's bad form to charge for a raise and they've set a trend. I follow it because I think it adds insult to injury and I like to build a reputation for being helpful rather than mercenary. I've never had a party leader rag me out for killing our PT's EXP to raise some other person who died nearby - they all know it'd suck to have another pt near you completely ignore you (I tell them to wait till the chain is over though). I've gotten PT invites from people I've raised before because they remember.

But go ahead and charge for a raise if you want to. There are no rules except what you make for yourself.

[Icemage]

Hehe. Sorry, locus, if I gave the impression that I thought all players were knuckleheads and didn't realize that WHMs are productive members of a party, then I apologize.

I was, and am still of the opinion that such people can go fish when they ask me for a Raise II/III, though my rules have relaxed somewhat since passing level 70. This is mostly because the hyperkinetic BRD/BLM/RDM supporters have mostly vanished at this point, and also because at 70+, Cure V starts becoming a very potent weapon in a white mage's arsenal. I can top off a fully decked out Galka Paladin at level 75 (1700+HP) with a Divine Seal + Cure V. No way any other mage can come even close, much less not pay the price in enmity the way a white mage can, and the shift I see in attitudes at 70+ reflects this.

I will note, however, that there are certain level ranges where the BRD/BLM/RDM adherents are particularly common - mostly the levels which are annoying for white mages, between 56 and 60, when you don't have access to Reraise II yourself, but people feel obligated to ask you to go Raise II them halfway across a map. At the same time, you don't have access to Cure V yet, making the playing field tilt heavily in the favor of red mages, who have the same spells at that point.


Icemage

[Lynsy]

Have you ever grouped without a Paladin?
Yes, and I never asked another PTs PLD for a cover when I did...
Have you ever grouped without a Theif?
Yes, and I never asked another PTs THF for a SATA Dancing Edge when I did...
Have you ever grouped without a Monk?
Yes, and I never asked another PTs MNK for a Chi Blast when I did...
Have you ever grouped without a Ninja?
Yes, and I never asked another PTs NIN for a Jabuki when I did...
Have you ever grouped without a Ranger?
Yes, and I never asked another PTs RNG for a Barrage when I did...
Have you ever grouped without a Red Mage?
Yes, and I never asked another PTs RDM for a Refresh when I did...
Have you ever grouped without a Black Mage?
Yes, and I never asked another PTs BLM for a Warp II when I did...
Have you ever grouped without a Bard?
Yes, and I never asked another PTs BRD for an Etude when I did...
Have you ever grouped without a Dark Knight?
Yes, and I never asked another PTs DRK for an Absorb-Agi when I did...
Have you ever grouped without a Dragoon?
Yes, and I never asked another PTs DRG for ancient circle when I did... (or my own, for that matter >.>)
Have you ever grouped without a Warrior?
Yes, and I never asked another PTs WAR for a Warcry when I did...
Have you ever grouped without a Samurai?
Yes, and I never asked another PTs SAM for a Demon Circle when I did...
Have you ever grouped without a Summoner?
Yes, and I never asked another PTs SMN for an Earthen ward when I did...
Have you ever grouped without a Beastmaster?
Yes, and I never asked another PTs BST for a Call Beast when I did...

I think that is the point that Icemage and some others are trying to make. You know what any given job has to offer a PT, you are accepting their strengths and their weaknesses by inviting them. By making a party with no WHM, you are making a party with no Raise II or III (or any raise at low lvls). Simply because a spell is not designated PT only by the game does not mean we are under obligation to use it outside of PT...If you want a raise bot, get another account lvl WHM to 70 and have it follow you around. Sure, its great to have someone be nice and save your ass a few hundred XP when you 'need' it, but I no more expect that than I expect random WAR to provoke something off me if Ive agroed and running to the zone--I'll love them forever if they do, if they don't, I really cant blame them.

[locus]

That point was moot. Obviously, when people make parties without a whm, they understand the risks taken and don't expect raise 2 or 3. If a party sharing our camping spot has a member which bites the dust and they have no whm, but they have a red mage or a black mage, they don't usually bother me for a raise 3, the bother their LS mates, or just eat raise. Sometimes I have to tell them not to take the raise cause I'm willing to throw them a raise 3 and make their day. It's convenient, they're next to me, and my party is never composed out of people that go "CHAIN CHAIN CHAIN GRIND GRIND GRIND, wtf! u wasting mp on other ppl? u very bad whm! (boot)".

It is, however, different if an entire party wipes out and nobody is left to cast raise cause somebody forgot reraise. (vide: the reraise thread). In that case, usually it's nice to throw their raiser a raise 3 and then go back to minding your own business. But nobody ever said you had to be NICE. Nice all the time is boring.

I have never encountered a situation in which I was partied and a party asked me to travel half the map to raise someone just because they had no white mage in their party and the pt member refused to take raise 1. I've had people ask me when I just happened to be passing by and unpartied and by all means, I oblige freely. But expecting you to be mothering everyone in the entire zone with raise 3? That's tantamount to letting people walk all over you. Your primary responsibility is to your party.

Raising someone else is a favour to them, but the instant you ask for money, they have no obligation to feel grateful to you. Let's put it this way: If someone gave you a cake, you'd thank them for it and like them more, but if you walked into a store and paid for a cake, I'd hardly think you'd be expected to feel grateful to the baker and invite him over for dinner. Charging for raises turns it into a service and you have no business trying to make money on your party's time. Sure, you can offer to split the money with your party members, but if that was the case, you might as well set up shop and go camping instead of having put up an exp tag that told whoever invited you that you were interested in experience points.

If you want to charge for raises, go ahead and USE YOUR OWN JUDGMENT. You might as well be asking people whether you should wear red underwear today or blue. It's not a case of right or wrong, sheesh.

[Lynsy]

I fail to see how the point was moot...
Seeing as I have been asked to travel all the way across zones, and sometimes to zones half way across the world, the point is very poignant to me. I generally do not mind raising people if I have no other superceeding obligations, but I do believe that Icemage and others are right in the idea that whatever you have in your PT is what you have--expecting another party or party's members is bad mojo.
I just see it as a situation of it should not be expected to be given to you, but you should give it if its in your power.
And yes, charging for a raise is a service. But so is charging for sex ;x

[AtraposBLM]

Originally posted by Lynsy
I fail to see how the point was moot...
Seeing as I have been asked to travel all the way across zones, and sometimes to zones half way across the world, the point is very poignant to me. I generally do not mind raising people if I have no other superceeding obligations, but I do believe that Icemage and others are right in the idea that whatever you have in your PT is what you have--expecting another party or party's members is bad mojo.
I just see it as a situation of it should not be expected to be given to you, but you should give it if its in your power.
And yes, charging for a raise is a service. But so is charging for sex ;x

Your point was moot basically because you missed the entire point of why I said what I said. What was the point? First off, I was *agreeing* that under no circumstances is a whm obligated to Raise *anyone* - period. Everyone likes to read right around where I said that, and just point out everything I said out of context and try to make me look like an ass.

Second, my point was exactly what Locus said. Nobody ever said you were obligated to raise people, but *charging* them is another thing entirely. If you reread all of my posts, you'll find that is *exactly* what I said. Think about the uproar that Ceciliantas (Midgardsormr only, sorry) caused with his "Mercenary" services. It's the *same* thing. You're not helping people if you're charging them for raises. You're making money - there's a difference.

[Lynsy]

No, your point was, according to your own self, that if a WHM claimed that a PT that conciously did not invite a WHM said that party "did not need them" they did not need the benefits they had to offer, either, was a hypocrite. >every< job has something to offer a PT, every party knows (or at least should know ~.~) what is being brought to the PT and what everyone has to offer. I'm sorry, but a WHM saying that anyone who doesnt invite a WHM does so knowing that means no R2/3 in PT is no different than a PLD saying anyone who does not invite a PLD does so knowing it means no cover if someone pulls too much hate.
My point was that it is not hypocritical to not want people to call on you for some skill if you do not call on other people for some skill they have to offer in similar situations (I.E. you dont have one of said job in PT).
And yes, you are still helping people if you charge for a raise -- in quite the same sense that a doctor helps his patients. It may not be the same type of help as doing it for free, but you still provided aid they likely would not have elsewise gotten.
And, like I said before, I have never, and will never, charge for a raise (or accepted donations), regardless of how out of the way it was or how much it cost me. I do believe its bad mojo, but people are perfectly capable of being bringers of bad mojo if they so chose.
And Atrapos, we may not always agree (I dare say, as often as not we disagree) but I have always believed you can hold your own in an arguement decently enough, but a blanket statement saying all WHMs here are hypocritical whiney bastards (which is what it ammounted to) was my main point of contention. Stick to your productive comments and you'll do fine...

[AtraposBLM]

Originally posted by Lynsy
And Atrapos, we may not always agree (I dare say, as often as not we disagree) but I have always believed you can hold your own in an arguement decently enough, but a blanket statement saying all WHMs here are hypocritical whiney bastards (which is what it ammounted to) was my main point of contention. Stick to your productive comments and you'll do fine...

Was that just a compliment from Lynsy????? <Run Away!>

I can't even respond to the rest of the things you said, I'm too stunned by the last backhanded compliment.

[Aiarin]

First off, let me say that my White Mage is only 10, and thus obviously I haven't been hit with millions of Raise requests. Here's how I see it though:

A) No one is obligated to Raise you, be it for free or for a charge.

B) If a raise request is deemed too much trouble by the White Mage in question, and he or she refuses, there is the possibility that the addition of money, a bribe, could tip the scales and make it "worthwhile" for them to go ressurect the dead. I see no problem with that.

Now some will claim that this sets a "dangerous precident" and that it could become like Everquest, and EVERYONE will charge for a Raise. That is possible. However, the only way anyone is going to pay for a raise, is if they can't get a free one. Meaning, quite simply, that if raises are so few that people must pay for them, then that is how it is. The only way the "don't charge for raise" argument really holds up, would be if there are enough free raises for everyone who would otherwise pay for one, and if that was the case, then no one would be successful in charging for a Raise.

To summarize, it seems to me that saying that people should eat exp loss because White Mages shouldn't charge for raises seems rather silly.

This is all, of course, outside of a PT. If a White Mage is in a group, they are obviously obliged to raise their party members-- and obligated to not raise anyone else, be it for cash or otherwise. I've had White Mages do this, and it annoys me to no end. (Unless it's another White Mage who is close by). To me, it falls under the category of Thieves picking chests/coffers during an Exp PT, risking weakness/mimic for personal gain.

[locus]

Aiarin:
Let's imagine you go to work at office one day, you have an urgent deadline to meet and your coworker is trying to move a filing cabinet and it falls on top of him. He's in a lot of pain and trapped.

Do you:
1) Ignore him and continue doing your work, you're not being paid to help your coworkers! It's none of your business and your boss might fire you if he sees you doing something non job related! Who cares about him?

2) I hardly think I need a second option to make my point.

Duty should never come before compassion. Essentially what you're saying is that everyone should set a precedent and charge for raises. That's like standing next to your coworker and saying "I'm on my coffee break now, but I'll help you for $500". Just because some other MMORPG had bad manners doesn't mean you have to carry them over to this game too. Don't get me wrong, charging for assistance definitely has precedents, but requiring a fee for it makes you into someone less interested about helping other people than making a heap of money. (e.g. a lawyer)

Lynsy:
Have you at any one point in time ever been helped out by one of those classes? Have you ever needed a mission or quest done and had a person who had already completed it or had nothing to gain help you out with their abilities because you asked them to?

When people ask you if you could raise it is UNDERSTOOD that it is not expected of you and it is a favour. It is tacit that you are not obliged to comply. An idiot with three brain cells knows that asking a favour of someone is not a command, neither is raising other people your duty. But you can not blame them for asking for one. And that, dear sir, is why your point is moot and unnecessarily made.

As a white mage, you are given a spell that can help people in far more significant ways than all the impractical things you listed (Puh-leeze. Ancient circle? Do you seriously think it's critical to unparty/party just so another party's rdm can give you refresh?). No other job can do this. The problem with having so much to give is the problem of being asked for it. Nobody's telling you you have to LIKE getting requests. That's what going /anon is for, sheesh.

Of course, maybe you haven't ever received unconditional help from another player. Maybe your server is full of party leaders that are only interested in mindless exp grinds instead of actually having fun, and who will boot and blacklist you the instant you display any unproductive compassion. In that case, deepest regrets, but your server seriously sucks. You might want to consider moving.

[Lynsy]

Locus, I think you are missing one main thing I mentioned when I posted on this topic long ago--I do raise requests, a lot of them, even when they are ridiculously out of the way (Crest room in Oz, Top of Delkfutts tower, near the end of Zvahl Keep, Cloister of Ice, etc when I am doing something for me), even when (usually) they are people I do not know or do not like. I personally feel that I am obligated to raise people, given no other superceeding obligations, simply because of how I chose to interact with other people. But a lot of people are aware that I am willing to do that and will often times take advantage of that or make me feel extremely guilty when it is something that I can not do at that time. I have probably made more far out raise requests than most people have ever considered.
But when you have already raised 3 full parties after aquarius has a field day in boyahda, and then one of the...less intellectually inclinced...people that you just raised has the brilliance to reagro aquarius and then ask you to come raise him after you are at your XP Camp spot because "They cant take a Raise 1, thats just too much XP loss" and they did not seem to have that in mind before they made a party with no WHM, you will come to see why I feel the way I do.
I have never, and will never, charge for a raise (or any other "service" I provide). I am far more willing to go out of my way to raise than most.
I have never, and will never, complain about people that >ask< me to raise them, no matter the situation. I however do take great issue with anyone trying to make me feel guilty for not being able to do something that I get >absolutely nothing< for and, in some cases, is a great personal risk when I am elsewise occupied or am commited to be in less time than it would require for me to complete the request being made.
Offering me, personally, money to make a raise is not incentive, as I will do nothing for money that I would not do for free.
On the other hand, I have, only a few times, but have, sent gil (usually around 5-25k) to low level WHMs that raised me on a lowbie job when they were under no obligation to do so as I think its good to help out people at times and good to reward those that do.
Additionally, I >am< the PT leader for over 90% of the parties I am in, so the PT leader demanding I not is somewhat moot. Either that, or a very close friend is in them and they need a WHM and recommend me. If anyone ever told me that I could not raise someone and I felt that I should, I would have no contentions leaving the party--I almost got kicked out an HNM LS for Raising a friend outside the LS when the leader wanted no raises to be given. If it is requested I wait until the end of a chain or another convenient (but reasonable) wait, I will oblige.
Bottom line is this -- I tell myself I am obligated to raise people (or whatever other help when I can give it) but Ill be damned if anyone, whether it be the person asking for the favor or someone else, tells me that I am a bad person if I do not do it. Similarly I will raise people, barring it being far more disadvantgeous for those Im with than advantageous for the one getting the raise (I.E....It takes 30 minutes, causing a loss in ~2k XP for 6 people to save one person 2k XP that they could get back in the time the raise request would take), and fuck anyone who tells me I'm a bad person for using PT time to help someone. I will do what I feel is right, if you would note, I have yet to tell anyone else what they should or should not do...simply stated how I feel. I simply request the same courtesy be given--even if what you are demanding I think is, in fact, what I think regardless.