White Warriors

[snoop1050]

WHM do negligible damage in XP parties. Even though we have an A level skill with Clubs, we miss a lot, and on the rare occasions we do hit, its for a handful of damage. There is simply no way to get over this fact.

if im not doing much damage and not drawing much extra hate for it to make a difference and the party isnt struggling to chain mob's wheres the harm in me bashing away on the odd mob?

im not saying i want to be a huge damage dealer i have a ranger leveled up for that ,it just help's to keep me focused in the long partys that can last for several hours if i get a little more involed in the fight's.

You melee on a chain 5 instead of resting could mean the difference between chaining 6 and not chaining 6.

the chains usually end because the puller has to go to far to pull a mob and doesnt get it back to us intime or we run out of mobs to kill and have to wait for a spawn.
if my mp was starting to get low i would obviously be more bothered about trying to grab the odd rest period mid battle than trying to melee ,there has to be a certain comfort zone for me to pull out my club

[yuukei]

Getting back to the topic at hand, I don't believe there's any gear that will allow you to stay focused in both areas of magic and melee. Each one off-balances each other. When it comes to equipment, from what I've seen, you can be either mage or melee. This is because just about all equips you get are high in one stat at the sake of a lack of other stats or stat penalties. Magic users use accessories with high mp, int, and mnd, but with low defense, and penalties to hp, str, and vit. The opposite for melee. This is the same for all armor and weapons across the board, and even food. It's part of why PLD really suffers with mp compared to a WHM.

So, in the end, you actually are forced to choose between melee power and magic ability. You can either be whm with poor melee power, poor def, and below average mp compared to your peers, or you can be a whm with practically no melee power, no def, and a significant amount of mp. I think that should be enough information to base any decision you make.

Also, and this is going a little off topic, but I've been hearing that they'll be rebalancing classess for PvP. That sort of makes me think they might give whm more attacking viability. Anyone think that might happen? If it does that could be what this guy wants I suppose.

[Icemage]

Those of you thinking that you aren't hurting anything by pulling out your weapon need to learn something:

Know how you get around 2% TP when you get hit by a monster? Well... the monsters get the same bonus... only more so. And they use those TP to activate their special attacks/abilities. You're contributing tiny amounts of damage, and giving the monster more special attacks to hurt your party with.

Chew on that for a while.

P.S. If you want proof, go hit a weak monster like a Savanna Rarab in a newbie zone with a spell like Blind. It will sit there and miss 95% of its attacks... and won't ever activate its special attacks like Foot Kick or Whirl Claws, because it can't build enough TP. Try it again on a slightly stronger monster (but still one that can't hit you) and go beat on it with your bare hands. You'll see that it will be able to activate a special attack after a short time, even if it never hits you.


Icemage

[Miriamel]

Hmm.. I didn't read all posts, however I have a simple meleeing rule: Not in EXP parties, unless we're fighting beetles and have an overload of healing power. ^^

In AF fights and similar stuff, you will most likely find me meleeing.

What annoys me is a situation in which there are two white mages in the party, and while the other one goes off meleeing, I have to do all the healing. Happens too often, unfortunately.

[Bahamut182]

I never really had a problem with WHMs meleeing, untill the THF tried to Trick off me and the WHM somehow got the hate... that wasn't good....:sweat:

[Issaac]

Originally posted by Bahamut182
I never really had a problem with WHMs meleeing, untill the THF tried to Trick off me and the WHM somehow got the hate... that wasn't good....:sweat:

Lol )

I grouped with a second white mage in Quicksand caves, his name was destruction. He did pretty well and made more dmg to the bettles then our paladin ^^

And due to the fact that he still did his job and we chained nicely nobody complained about it. For me, it was actualy funny looking this little furball knocking the beetles and ants with louds screams^^

[Miriamel]

Destruction is in my LS. Stupid taru yanked the AF2 item from me. --; Bah.

[cruets]

i'm lvl 61 whm now and always believed whm shouldnt melee in xp party since we get aggro on ourselves and get hurt and will have to waste xtra mp curing ourselves, but now as i get closer to genkai 5 and the maat fight, i realize i'll need hexa strike for even a chance of surving that battle and you cant get hexa strike unless you're club skill is at 220 i believe. eventually, whm will have to hit too , to skill up club for this. just my 2 cents, so i join the fray these days. my club is now at 155

[Lyonesse]

I think I had this conversation with StarvingArtist before. As long as you can do your job and the know the limits of what you can do, go for it. Almost nothing is impossible in this game, perhaps more difficult, but not impossible.

I think I'm still the only person on this forum that advocates WHM subs that aren't standard. So I'll give you a few tips based on my experiences.

1) Pick the right sub.

WHM is a lot more versatile than most people say. We're the strongest of the mages physically (with the exception of RDM which has some specfic deals that is arguable). That said, we still need a proper melee sub to be any decent. I'd personally recommend /WAR, /PLD, or maybe /MNK (I really haven't tried this extensively). Lesser effective melee subs IMO include /THF, /DRK, and /NIN. The two most important stats if you intend on meleeing is HP and defense. Attack is secondary. It's really important that you're able to survive hits and HP/Defense is the way to go. WAR, PLD, and MNK subs augment those stats fairly well. I probably could go on more with this but I'll leave it at that.

2) Equipment

ALWAYS carry two sets of equipment. One set for melee (preferably defense, offense, stats in that order) and one casting set. You need to have a casting set just like any other WHM with a mage sub. More MP is always good. When you run into melee, switch to your stronger equipment and when you go back to casting, switch to your casting gear. You should have these macro'd to make it easier.

Shield and Hammers are the only way to go IMO. A Shield is invaluable anyway you put it.

3) Targets

An obvious one, watch what you fight and know when to and not to melee. If the AoE they enemy uses has an adverse effect like the Antican petrify drop, avoid the bananas out of it. If the AoE doesn't have that sort of ability, than it's a calculated risk. Mobs that don't use AoEs are choice of course.

4) Food

Always have multiple food items on you. I usually carry fishkabobs, meatkabobs, and pies. This is so I can adjust to the situation. Meatkabobs for extra melee damage. Fishkabobs to take less damage. Pies for more MP. Use food accordingly. They're expensive but ultimately worth it IMO. It really shouldn't be a big problem if you're a melee WHM because you'll be farming much easier than other WHMs who have very lagging skills.

5) Shield/Parry

Easily the most important skills in your repetoire. These skills are VERY helpful. Shield blocks a ton of attacks (even some specials) and parry has a very similar function. The higher the abilities, the better the shield/parry rates. WHMs have a fairly decent growth rate in shield if you couple it with a melee sub like WAR or PLD. I gained about 50 levels with WHM out of my 100+ on my PLD right now. It's the same with Parry.

6) Recognize battle patterns

This specifically relates to the dynamics of your party and how they work. Watch how each battle turns out for you and your group. MP usage, the abilities of the main tank, aggro control, and a whole slew of other things. Watching these factors can help you create an opening for yourself to melee. It can also tell you when you need to rest as well.

7) Macros

You still need to heal while meleeing and this process is much faster if you create macros tailored to doing so. I create macros for each person in the party and hit that macro when they need a heal rather than manually selecting the spell and hitting F1-6. It's much faster and more accurate. Equipment macros like I mentioned above are a good idea too.

8) Buffs

Always make sure you have as many helpful buffs on as possible. Spells like Stoneskin, Blink, and Aquaveil help tremendously when meleeing. Stoneskin helps to prevent damage as does blink. Aquaveil lowers interruption rate and is a good safety measure for when that mob happens to go haywire and really start unloading on you (like after a benediction). Bar series is especially helpful too. Reraise is a must too. ALWAYS have it on.

I'm probably forgetting some things but if you have any questions about doing this sort of thing, ask away. I might have an answer for you.

[Deodorant]

Mmmm or you could be an rdm instead.

Obviously, as a whm you are most effective at back row. Whether or not to melee depends on how much less effective you are as healer by doing so. Even as an rdm I do so little damage melee'ing that half the time I'll just put on my +mnd/+int club and sit in a corner. Plus, in a less-than-ideal party with shoddy hate control, it's too easy to get hit after throwing a cure3 if I'm up at the frontlines (and at my level, everything we fight easily hits 100+ damage on me, and I'm pretty heavily armored). In contrast if I was at the backlines, the tanks would have an extra 1second or so to provoke to save that little bit of mp.

Furthermore when I realize that drks sams and drgs are all whacking away for 60-70, and I'm hitting 1/3 times for 10-15, it kinda feels pointless (on a side note, 10-15 is still more than what thf's normal attacks hit for :spin: hehe).

Basically what I'm trying to say is: some groups never have mp problems, and are limited only by the monsters available. If melee'ing doesn't decrease the effectiveness of the group, then I see no harm in doing so (although quite a few people will disagree).

[Issaac]

I just meele if i know the oponent is not a big match for the group. A though for example as placeholder to hold chain becahuse nothing else is pullable as fast as we need it to hold chain. I constantly go out and find myself some "Not worthwhile - high defence" stuff to train my club skill. It does not take very long to cap it again after you lvled.

[yuukei]

Uh, I think Icemage gave some pretty good info on a good reason NOT to melee. Enemy specials and AoE. He stated quite plainly that if you hit it you add to its TP, allowing it to perform those attacks faster. So what you're doing is causing more potential damage to you tank and/or group. The damage you could indirectly cause to your party adds to downtime and mp drain and is so much more than the damage you could inflict on any monster. It's something to consider imo.

[Rones]

Unless you have full mp, everyone fully buffed, and everyone fully healed there is something better for you to do than melee. And even then only if the mob doesn't have AoEs or extreme special attacks.

[Altruist]

Worst WHM I have ever met was a melee whm at level 35. I never had any mp and was always poisoned, maybe on the third in chain after one of the melee's would tell her to actually poisona me so I could actually rest. She did nothing but spam Cure III's the entire time and forget to heal on occasion. The only reason half the PT lived was because I sat my butt in the back row like a good rdm and regen/cure II'ed everyone. She used her mana regen WS once and got a whole 10mp, wow. After every fight I told her to not melee, some people just don't get it. Most people know who this person is, and I will never PT with her again. Not to mention she probably is the most blacklisted whm on our server, especially after her genkai 1 attitude.

[Claritin]

WHM melee

Icemage is 100% correct.. if you hit a mob you give it 2% TP.... so you help it get TP faster... and that is silly.

If you want to melee... do it solo. Or when doing Khazam key farming or other stupid things like that where there is very little danger.

Meleeing in an EXP group is acceptable if you are taking easier monsters because you are almost ready to out-level your hunting grounds or because everyone in the group has agreed to work on skills.

If you do melee... don't melee all the time.. maybe 1 out of 5 kills or so... just enough to gain a little skill... tell them "I need to raise my weapon skill it is too low and I can't defend myself while traveling"

I have been in a few groups where the WHM or the RDM focused on melee rather than healing or debuffing when I was playing as my PLD.... and when I was the party leader... I booted them every damn time.

If I see you casting enthunder and meleeing as a RDM and you haven't cast paralyze, blind, dia, etc yet... well.. byebye... so long... not so pleased to have met you... thanks for wasting 5 people's time. I WILL NOT ACCEPT DEATHS OVER STUPID NON-SENSE.

However is they continue to do thier jobs... melee to gain skill on occasion I am fine... constant meleeing.. or meleeing in AE... or forgetting thier primary role is NOT ALLOWED.

As a WHM I sometimes melee in combat myself... it is rare but I do it on occasion to gain skill.... I will not tell someone else they can not do it.

As someone else said... I have combat healing macros set /ma "Cure III" <p1> etc... so I don't have to do targeting in combat.

I am also trained well in healing during combat since I am a PLD/WAR also So I know how to manage aggro and use heals at the right times and when things AE and where to stand against which monsers (like worker crawlers have a cone shaped attack... a WHM can fairly safely melee from behind)

However I still avoid it usually... because like Icemage said... it builds up monster TP.

I also only do it when there is a PLD/WAR as tank... because they hold aggro well enough for me to be safe.

If you do more DMG than your PLD/WAR in the group as a WHM/XXX then I have one thing to say to you... the PLD/WAR is doing less dmg because they are spending time healing and casting flash and stuff instead of meleeing because they know what thier job is.... it's to tank... and keep aggro.. not to do dmg. I can tell you for a fact my PLD/WAR does WAY more dmg than my WHM/RDM with the same weapon at just 1 lvl different on the same creatures. PLD/WAR has higher skill... Higher ATK.. higher STR... how on earth could a WHM POSSIBLY out-damage it in straight melee? Unless the PLD did it's job as TANK/HEALER and WHM wanted to pretend to be a DAMAGE DEALER rather than heal.

Saying a WHM does more dmg than a PLD was pretty much the dumbest thing I have read in this thread.... not that a PLD does alot of dmg.... but come on.. that is just crazy-stupid.

WHM does more dmg than RDM... HAHA that is stupid also... they have En-Fire etc... those imbue thier damage with magical attacks... and they have more STR and more ATK... and more weapon skill also.

I think a few of you need math lessons.... and reality checks.

Can a WHM melee in combat on occasion to help raise skill? Sure.

Should a WHM melee in combat to raise damage per second? No.

Can a WHM out damage a PLD/WAR? No.

Can a WHM out damage a RDM/WHM? No.

Can a WHM meleeing get the group killed because of an AE attack or status effect or less mana because they didn't sit down or because they gave a monster a little extra TP? Yes.

Anyone who tries to dispute the above FACTS will continue to be laughed at by the other people here which have already said most of these facts.... all of them being more respected here than myself (Icemage... come on... he is one of the most knowledgable WHM's on this board and one of the least likely to scold you for making a mistake... and you don't take the time to listen to his advice?)