+7 Mind bad at early lvls?

[Iyo]

I thought I read a comment IceMage(?) made (can't find it again now) about it being bad to high a high level of Mind pluses when low level...

All the WM I know get the rings, clubs/wands, tunics etc with the +mind bonus... My taru 14 base has an additional "+7" right now with my rings, et. al.

I'm only nearly lvl 11 -- is this bad at this point? My aggro and hate doesn't seem to be so bad yet... But I've also been soloing most of the time so far... (powering up for group play)

[PetriW]

I wouldn't say it's bad really. You generate more aggro per heal but you need to heal less, you just need to control your hate not impose some artificial limiter on your heal performance. If you're windurstan move to Shakharim Maze and join Maze Maker killing groups until level 15 for fast XP action where you getting aggro wont be a problem since as long as it ain't on the melees everyone is happy.
If you ain't just learn that some tanks don't know wtf they are doing and you'll get aggro, MND doesn't affect healed amount that much anyway, I bet those +7 mnd doesn't give you more than 2hp more healed per heal... or roughly 7% extra aggro.

While I appreciate most of Icemages comments I do think that one was unlucky.

[Icemage]

For most new WHM, I really don't recommend +MND. When you're low level, the main trouble is that even when you do have access to a warrior with Provoke, the effect is so unreliable prior to level 12 or so vs. Cure/Cure II that the +MND, while being more efficient, can get you more aggro than your tanks can offset.

If you are comfortable with the amount of aggro you pull, by all means, use it. But for some mages (particularly Elvaan WHM, who already have high MND), getting more +MND can be dangerous because you're running into the same risk that a lot of BLM run into - pulling too much enmity at low levels.

Once you get to level 15, Provoke seems to catch up with Cure for aggro, and by level 21, you have access to Regen, enmity generally stops becoming a huge issue, but those early levels can be painful. I actually get occasional questions from new players who read these forums about how they can stop dying at those levels, and that's one piece of advice that I give - to control your hate, sometimes being a little ineffecient is the way to go. After all, dying is by far the most ineffecient thing you can do.


Icemage

[Calianeri]

Well, Tarus don't have a huge MND base to start with, so I don't think that +MND is too bad. Curing too often/too soon/too much is what will directly get aggro. So avoid Cure II and make sure the attackers have provoked and done some damage before using Cure I. You're basically "competing" with them for hate, and you want to lose.

MND is not as big a deal to WHMs as INT is to BLMs... so if you think reducing your +MND helps, don't feel like you'll be a worse WHM. Going for +HP or +MP items isn't a bad thing.

BTW, I bet you have a +3 MND Justice Badge providing a lot of your MND boost ... standard issue for Windurstian mages.

[Iyo]

Thanks!

Thanks for the great advice!! You guys rock!

And yep, I do have a Justice Badge as well. The onion brigade saw to that.

Definately gave me things to think about here.

[Xalrin]

I have been buying all the +mind gear I could find at each level and haven't had any problems with agro. I think the main thing is what cure you use. Until about level 18 or so I hardly used Cure II. I would just spam Cure on the main tank and if anyone got below 100hp I would throw a Cure II and hope I didn't get too much agro. It has worked out so far and now I am using Regen and Cure II almost exlusively with little concern with agro and I have +11 mind, Priest Rope, 2 +2 mind rings, Justice Badge, and Yew Wand.

[Stryyf]

I have to agree with Xalrin, I have +12 mind now and don't have problems with agro at all at lvl 19 I have like 24+12 (i think)
controling agro has not been a problem, i haver very low mp as a Galka so i wanted to get the most out of my cures as i could.
Also try to stand back far away from the mele portion of the fight
not positive that range contributes to agro here but even if it doesn't the monster having to travel a farther distance to get to you often provides the Provoker enough time to get a provoke before you atart getting hit.

[Deedlit]

I never had a problem with cure agro at lower levels either - my main word of advice is, unless it is unavoidable - ONLY use Cure I at lower levels. I didn't touch Cure 2 until it was at the same mp efficiency as Cure 1 (meaning, it healed for 90hp for 24 mp). Besides, spamming cure instead will bring up your skill faster =)

[Mylek]

My vote also goes to having as much +mnd as possible as a whm.

It will make your cure spells more efficient in addition to a small boost to banish variance and white magic enfeeble potency.

As many have stated you only want to use the top tier cures as a last resort when anything else can not keep up with healing.

[Icemage]

Please note the original question, which was whether it was good or bad to have +MND at *early* levels. I worded my response very carefully because of the nature of the question to specifically address white mages that are level 12 or lower. While I respect the opinion of those who state (quite correctly) that +MND is a great thing to have later on, I stand by my opinion that using +MND items very early on can slow your progress if you choose to group at those levels.

If you are solo... sure, stack all the +MND you want and then some. But anyone wanting to party at, say, level 9, with (for instance) a level 9 MNK is going to be pulling more aggro than the MNK will, and that's where the +MND is really going to hurt you more than it helps, because there's not a thing the MNK can do except watch you die.


Icemage

[SonikU4ia]

[My vote also goes to having as much +mnd as possible as a whm. It will make your cure spells more efficient in addition to a small boost to banish variance and white magic enfeeble potency.]

This may seem out of place, and if so, please feel free to use this statement as best you see fit, however, is it really necessarily true that the MND attribute really in fact increases/enhances enfeeblement potency? If so, what kind of numbers are we looking at, if any are available.

On a side note and in addition, exactly what numbers are we looking at when it comes to healing? Exactly how does MND play a role in that? If I vaguely remembering reading a while back, MND really only helps to reach the soft cap sooner by giving you one or two points every several and so many MND points.

Anyone able to clairify?

If so (concerning MND and healing), then I can certainly understand why a WHM in a PARTY at the lower levels before 8 would not want to have a very high MND. Otherwise, the WM would certainly start competing for hate with fellow melee'ers in battle. This opinion, of course, would be based on whether a few more pointsin healing is "really" causing that much more hate. Nevertheless, it would be wiser then, IMO, to simply work on +MP gear, yet, that idea really all depends on the situation.

I am seeing in later levels playing, as a WHM, the only real time I gather hate is when a person has been hit really hard suddenly by a monster and in the orange or red (this is especially true for Taru's, poor little fellas.) If I am suddenly spamming Cure 3's and DS+Cure3, then I'll grab hate from everyone for a bit. Of course, thankfully, I have my self-buffs up (Blink, Stoneskin, Aquaveil, Reraise) and not really all too concerned, because the hate gets taken back from me rather quickly (albeit by DRKs and RNGs). However, I really only use Cure 2 + Regen religiously and it works out more than perfectly fine. Cure 3 gets a little dusty on my shelf of unused and unrelated spells most of the time.

No matter what, I "never" use Curaga or Curaga 2 in battle, unless it is absolutely necessary and I need to sacrifice myself for the other members of the time. (I'll get auto-raised anyway. I'd rather me die than them seeing as how I have access to such a neat spell.) IMHO, the Curaga line is simply more of a ultilty after battle, to keep warriors and the like healed up and full and stop them from regen-ing and losing TP.

Heh, enough of my rabble.

[Mylek]

To what end int and mnd effect blk and whm enfeeblement spells respectively I am uncertain but from my experience I have noticed a difference.

In this thread it is cited from official expert guide(jp) v.031111 that with and without +stats it can make a 10-15% difference.

[Issaac]

I also had a lot of +Mind when lower lvl and still have a lot of +Mind now. It didnt took long that i figured out at maybe lvl 10 that i have 2 free cures for each provokate, so i checked a lot of chat filters and looked the chat and Hitpoints of my party closely. When the warrior provokated (and i saw or red it in chat), i fired my cures on him and waited for next provokate. This worked realy good for me, i only got agro when i had to heal more then 2 times/provokate.


A realy pain where only the Warriors who think that provokating os only needed when the mob turns away. I grouped up to lvl 30 with those tanks..now at lvl 41 it seems that even the last tank learned it :spin:

[Akiro]

Then I guess i am doing a little too much cause as of me being lvl 12 i am wearing rings +2MND, wand +2MND, Badge +3 MND,and getting Zealot mitts soon +5 MND (i gave a +2 MND ring do my wittle hunnie) so +12 MND and i am getting the +1 version of the next MND wand soon... so am i over doing it just a tad bit?

[Rones]

*Cough*

Anyway, you won't really have any use of +mnd early on. Your enfeebles stick fine without it, your cures you should be using regulary cap quickly. Not until maybe ~30 will you need the +mnd to help stick enfeebles.