Cure Hate Generation

[ZenXIII]

I have a question regarding Hate and Cure spells.
Basically, is hate generated on per HP healed basis?
Does 1 HP healed = X Hate generated?
Or, does it have something to do with the *name* of the spell ... ?

***

I assume that even if the hate is on a per HP basis (and assuming max curing for each spell), cure 1 will generate less hate simply b/c of the delay b/t casts that allows melee to build up hate b/t cures, rather than just one big chunk of replenished HP, thus one big chunk of hate.
This is more of an academic question that than anything, so any input is appreciated.
Also, if there is a guide to hate out there, I'd love to see a link!
Thanks

[Miriamel]

Hate depends on the actual amount of HP healed. How do I know? Well, I mistook my curaga for my cure macro twice now. If it only heals 20-30HP for each char, you hardly get any hate. If it heals 90 or even, using divine seal, 180, you'll have a hard time getting the hate off you.

And yes, you're right. A simple cure creates much less hate than cure II.

[murmur]

cure on the aggroed

Does anyone know if curing the person the monster has aggroed generates more hate? :confused: Or is it still just based on amount healed? And also does healing a person who's health is in the red as opposed to white make a difference? I know this is harder to tell, because red = big cure thrown, and amount healed is huge.

I was haunting the paladin board and it seemed a fair number believed that curing whoever was aggroed gained more hate. Perhaps it's a rumor? :confused:

[Miriamel]

Well, if you heal the person that is getting aggroed you'll generally throw more/bigger heal spells at them, as their HP drops quickly.

It's not true that more hate is generated simply because you heal the one aggroed. Hate depends on the amount of HP healed, not the person you heal.

Same with the red/white HP.

[ZenXIII]

Interesting, I was under the impression (note: impression, not fact) that if you were healing someone that wasn't being aggroed, you wouldn't generate hate simply b/c you weren't technically affecting the *monster* ... if the monster is not mad at the person you are curing, why would they care if you cured them.
Therefore, i assumed that the only way to get hate while curing is too cure the person under attack.
However, if just healing anything engaged with the monster = hate, that is an interesting development and will affect my play style appropriately!

[Icemage]

I've not noticed much difference in enmity levels between different targets, whether they are being attacked or otherwise, but if there is a difference, it's too small to notice.

From what I can tell, enmity works something like this:

Monsters start with no one on their enmity list. So for instance, if puller A attacks monster X with a ranged weapon, and player B heals player C with a Cure spell, this doesn't add any enmity for player B, since player C is not on the enmity list for the monster yet.

Once you are on the enmity list you gain enmity based on what you do:

Casting an enfeeble on the target
Casting a damage spell on the target
Attacking the target
Using an enhancing effect on anyone on the target's enmity list Healing anyone on the target's enmity list

Enmity fades over time, so if you are being attacked, the best way to stop being attacked is to disengage and not do anything (not always practical, however). Enmity fades faster for the person being attacked than for other members on the list.

I'll set up a hypothetical situation to show how this works in practice.

6 player party, attacking a Worker Crawler in the Crawlers' Nest (lets ignore subjobs for this discussion):

WAR
BRD
WHM
RDM
RNG
THF

Opening moments of battle:

THF starts the battle by using a boomerang to pull the Crawler. Crawler now adds the THF to the enmity list (with a few extra points if the attack lands and deals damage)

WAR uses Provoke on the Crawler. Crawler adds WAR to the enmity list, plus a hefty bonus for Provoke. Crawler's enmity list is now WAR, THF (I'll list the enmity list in order of strength, so Crawler is now focused on the WAR).

RDM casts Paralyze on the Crawler. Crawler adds RDM to the enmity list. WAR, RDM, THF

WHM casts Slow on the Crawler. Crawler adds WHM to the enmity list. WAR, WHM, RDM, THF

BLM casts Bio on the Crawler. Crawler adds BLM to the enmity list. WAR, BLM, WHM, RDM, THF

Bard sings Advancing March, giving all party members a Haste effect. Crawler adds BRD to the enmity list. WAR, BRD, BLM, WHM, RDM, THF

Combat begins:

WAR is now attacking
THF is now attacking
BLM is now using spells to attack
RDM is now attacking

Because they are launching attacks that deal greater damage, WAR and THF are now accumulating enmity steadily, with the RDM gaining only minimal enmity since they won't hit as often, nor as hard.

As the battle progresses, the WAR is probably dealing a lot of damage, but is also being attacked, so he is gaining and losing enmity pretty fast. This will reach a point where the enmity pretty much stabilizes.

The THF is probably hitting for low damage but is attacking faster than the other players. Enmity gain is not as fast as the WAR, but he's not losing enmity as fast either since he isn't being attacked.

The BLM is casting damage spells. If he is casting very fast, he's going to rack up a lot of enmity in a very short amount of time, and because he isn't the tank, he's going to lose enmity very slowly. It is not unheard of to see monsters turn towards BLM in a fight for this reason.

The BRD is busy singing his songs, both to enfeeble the Crawler, and to assist the party. Bard songs accumulate very little enmity, however, so he will almost never get attacked.

The WHM is busy healing the WAR. Depending on how fast the WHM is casting, and what spells are chosen, this can mean small amounts of enmity, or large amounts.

The RDM is either doing support healing, casting Refresh, or doing other support roles (magic burst, etc). Depending on which activity the RDM is doing, he can be gaining lots of enmity(healing), or minimal (Refresh).

If no one does anything else, this is what each player's enmity profile will look like after a few combat rounds:

WAR: High enmity, fast loss rate
THF: Moderate enmity, low loss rate
BLM: High enmity, low loss rate
BRD: Low enmity, low loss rate
WHM: Moderate to high enmity, low loss rate
RDM: Low to high enmity, low loss rate

If you look at the above, you'll see that depending on how often the WAR hits, and how fast the WHM, BLM, and RDM are casting spells will do a lot to determine who will get attacked.

Here are the cases when the monster will change targets:

WAR misses several attacks in a row.
This will make the WAR lose enmity very fast, which often means the BLM or WHM will be pulling aggro.

BLM casts several large damage spells in a row.
This makes the BLM's enmity rating skyrocket.

The WHM or RDM must cast several large healing spells in rapid succession.
Same as BLM above, really fast enmity increase.

When this happens, in order to get things back under control:

WAR uses Provoke to gain a "spike" of enmity.
THF uses fuidama(Trick Attack + WS) to assign enmity to the WAR.


Icemage

[Calianeri]

You can also see curing's effect on hate (emnity) by watching a good PLD use cures to keep hate. If he loses hate, he'll cure the mob's new target or himself - both work since he and the new target will be at the top spots of the mob's hitlist. I think, just from seeing it in action, that curing the target will get more hate. And yes, the bigger the cure, the more hate.

In fact, the way PLD is designed, maybe Square Enix believes that curing can be just as good as provoke - and being a WHM, I know sometimes they're right! :sweat:

[murmur]

Eheh, yes, the big cure Well I have one more question >_<, sorry, but I am aware that chain casting makes the hate accumulate much faster. So in regards to healing, how fast do you cure? Do you wait a bit before tossing the cures? Or chain cures as soon as you can until the tank's hp is safe. I know this depends on many factors, but in a situation where the party is fighting IT and damage is sizable and steady, I find I'm curing at a constant rate also, only less so when others are helping. I don't want to make it harder on the tank, so curious if you guys have found a different method. ^^

[Kagi]

Curing the person the monster is targeted at will generate the most hate.
Curing anybody else who is still on the monster's hate list will generate -but- not as much as the targeted person. (Lazy plds might cure themselves instead of the monster's new target for this reason)

I don't think the amount of hate cure generates is equal to the amount of HP healed. If this were the case plds would never be able to keep hate. After this crazy sam in my pt does meikyo shisui for close to 1k damage I can get it off of him with a couple of cure 3s on him for only about 380hp healed. Of course I could be wrong, because I'm curing in between provokes....

Calianeri, cure is not as good as provoke sometimes because you need to heal hp for it to work. This means that if you have full hp and you cure3 nothing will happen, whereas provoke immediately gives hate no matter what (if it doesn't work, this does not mean there is no hate added, it just means that the hate it gives is not enough to get the monster's attention). If cures gave as much consistent hate as provoke all the plds would be subbing whm instead of war

[Calianeri]

Calianeri, cure is not as good as provoke sometimes because you need to heal hp for it to work.

Right. I don't think you got my joke. :p From personal experience as a white mage, I know that sometimes Cures generate hate much better than Provoke, much to my detriment! :dead:

/emote Cali puts on his Blink and Stoneskin...