Elvaan White Mages

[Veraticus]

Really? Thanks very much, Icemage. =) I was interested in sticking to magic-using classes because I had read (from the GameFAQs job combos FAQ) that doing any melee job and subbing a magic job was a terrible idea, but upon consideration, it seems likely that the writer intended to mean that ending with that setup was a poor idea. Using it on the way may work out very nicely.

So, this may actually work out quite nicely for me, all things considered. WHM will make levelling up Warrior or something really easy, and then I can go from WAR to PAL and that'll be that. Does that sound good to you, Ice? Sorry to keep on bugging you, but I'm finding your advice quite invaluable. Anyway, thanks once again for all your help!

[StarRealms]

Elvaans make fine whm as long as you are careful with your MP useage. Racial differences for whm seem to be the biggest and most noteable sub 40-50, but once you get MP regen spells and the elvaan whms get 500-600 max mp this is fine for pretty much everything. RSE all adds +mp, and with the right equipment elvaans can do even more decent. Now I don't think elvaans make the best whm either, but I wouldn't worry necessarily about playing an elvaan whm. Whms seem to become increasingly rare as levels increase, and with a brd +rdm post 41, even a galka whm would do just as well as other races.

[Veraticus]

Hm, thanks for the input, StarRealms.

I was considering this question further during classes today, however. Now, to be a primary WHM, it seems to me you must sub BLK at some point or another, as per another thread in this very forum. The MP boost is quite nice, and you get Bio, Escape, Warp, yadda yadda -- all very worthwhile spells. But, as far as races go, Elvaan are just about the worst BLK there are, outside of Galkan. Same with WHM, I guess, but at least we have the highest MND stat going for us for healing. For BLK, we don't even have any special level of intelligence.

These two things taken together seem a persuasive argument that Elvaan were never intended to be WHM at very high levels. Nevertheless, you make some excellent points too -- namely that, at high levels, all parties need a WHM and they become very rare, and that with +MP equipment I'll probably do just fine. This puts me in something of a difficult position.

On the one hand, Icemage's advice seems very sound. I can level easily up to 20 with WHM, as all parties love me, and then switch over to Warrior and sub WHM. I'll significantly reduce downtime with my WHM spells as a WAR, and when I get WAR up to 30, I'll drop WHM and pick up PAL. Of course, the downside to this plan is that most people will be a WAR/MNK at level 30, which is significantly more uber than my WAR/WHM, but what can you do, I guess? The more I consider this path, however, the more likely it seems I'll have to do both WAR and MNK to be viable in higher level parties, and while it is true that I intended to level up many of the jobs in this game, I'd rather get one to a very high level before I go back down and start working on the others for fun.

On the other hand, Starrealms, if what you say is true, then despite my being an Elvaan, I'll be greatly appreciated in parties for my ability to heal, and with +MP equipment I'll be able to do an okay job of it. I will have to sit more often than a Taru, but if it's doable, perhaps I should do it. The only downside I see to your plan is having to go BLK as a sub to be a viable WHM, which seems to me to be a pretty terrible idea. Even levelling BLK up to 15 could be an exercise in pain and derision.

Well, as always, I'm very interested in what people have to say about this.

[SAVAGE]

OK ill start by saying yes you can play what you want, (cept galkan mages icky )
With that said ill explain why Elvaans have high MND. Its not for them to be WHM. MND also is magic defense. They have high MND so that they can tank, so if hte monster or whatever casts a spell on them the status of it will either miss or go away faster so they can do there job better. This is the only reason for there high MND, just to make them better fighters.

[Veraticus]

Well, certainly, a happy side effect of high MND and thus magical resistance is increased healing power. And I thought it would be enough to offset a lower magic pool, at higher levels: little did I know about these theoretical cure caps...

[Icemage]

StarRealms is quite correct - the number of WHM quickly dwindle once you pass level 30. A large number of players who start as WHM end up going down different job paths (Summoner is a common job track for starting WHM, as are Paladin, Dragoon Knight, and Bard). By the time you get to level 45 or so, WHM do seem to become very rare indeed, so competition for party space is less of a problem at high levels because you're just more in demand.

To add a dose of reality, however, this doesn't address the fact that you're just not as effective as a Elvaan WHM vs. Hume, Mithra, or (especially) Tarutaru of the same level. The improved Strength and Vitality of the Elvaan simply stops having any impact once you start getting into parties. White mages stop getting any significant melee time after around level 25, as most WHM players tend to stay out of melee range to avoid nasty area of effect attacks, and because their weaponry simply does minimal damage.

I'll discuss briefly the idea of using WAR/WHM as a possible job track to Paladin. I didn't think /WHM was a good idea for lower level warriors until I saw a couple of really bright players in the FFXI beta subbing WHM for their WAR prior to level 30 (before they acquired the Paladin job). I'll compare the relative merits of WAR/MNK vs. WAR/WHM.

A warrior with WAR30/MNK15 gets:

Martial Arts (Increased hand-to-hand speed)
Max HP Up
Counterattack
Dodge

Stat bonuses go primarily to Strength, Vitality, and HP from subbing /MNK, so you end up with an offensive build that can Provoke and avoid the occasional attack. This is considered by some to be the "optimal" job path for warriors, as it gives them some extra defensive perks from Counterattack, Dodge and more HP.

A warrior with WAR30/WHM15 gets:

Clear Mind
Magic Defense Up
Divine Seal
And access to:
Protectra
Poisona
Blindna
Cure
CureII

I mention the spells because the primary role of the warrior at the early levels (30 or lower) is to act as a tank. What I've seen the better players do is use their Cure (and eventually Cure II) spells as a second Provoke. When a mage or other vulnerable party member gets hit, if they don't have Provoke available, they can cast a healing spell to draw extra hate, and protect the attacked player at the same time. In this specific instance, being Elvaan is a major plus, as your high MND score will improve the power of your Cure spells(and help you draw more hate).

While this build is weaker in the offense/defense equation than /MNK, I can say that I've never had issues with the defensive capabilities of a competent WAR/WHM as primary tank even up through level 40+. It's also a more party-friendly build than WAR/MNK; you can have a primary WAR/MNK and still have a WAR/WHM as a backup tank, whereas having two WAR/MNK is not as good.


Icemage

[Veraticus]

Whew. Alright, thanks a ton once again for the advice, Icemage. I'll stick with WHM to 20, then sub Warrior to 30, and then go Pally. =)

[SAVAGE]

But Icemage you said as your WAR throws out Heals he raises his healing, but you cant raise subjob skills:/, and even if youc ould by the time your LVL 15 your healing should be caught up and capped.

[Icemage]

Actually, I never said you would raise your Healing skill as a WAR. The assumption was that you'd start off as WHM. Since Veraticus has said he'd like to stick with WHM for a while, my assumption is that he'll stick with it until at least level 20, at which point his Healing should cap easily with a /WHM15 or lower sub (its almost impossible not to max out Healing as a WHM before you get to the next level once you pass level 10 or so).

If it were me, my track would be:

WHM to 20 (to get Subjob and Chocobo quests out of the way). If you're feeling your cheery-oats you can take it to level 25 to get access to Invisible and Sneak, which are necessary for the Paladin quest, though if you have a friend who is a RDM or WHM 25+ this is not generally much of a problem (or any friend level 50+ works too, if you want to go through the hard way).

WAR/WHM to 30/15, using the above described tactics (note that at this point, your Healing skill should easily be capped all the way to at least WAR35+)

Complete Paladin advanced job quest.

PLD/WHM until level 10 (you don't get Provoke until PLD10/WAR5 anyhow, so might as well get the extra MP to speed up the early levels since you're going to be solo during that period anyway).

PLD/WAR from level 10+. Note that this is a pretty easy track for PLD, since your healing skill will already be capped, which will make a huge difference in the early levels.

Hope that makes a bit more sense...


Icemage

[Pirotess]

Originally posted by Icemage
It's possible to play Elvaan WHM to high levels, but you REALLY have to watch your MP usage, because you're going to have about 30-40% less MP than a Taru mage at the same level depending on equipment. In general, Elvaan just don't make very good WHM. Their high MND stat becomes mostly meaningless after level 15 or so, when all WHM and RDM start hitting the soft cap of 30 on Cure.

Icemage

Yeah of Course we know that, Why Picking a Taru taru for the Comparison ? They are the best in magic so its easy to put down someone else opinion don't you think so? Everyone knows Elvaan are better at fighting, like taru taru are the best for magic, why not talk about the fun factory of playing A character elvaan mage or Taru taru warrior? i seen many taru taru Warrior, I dont know why ppl are always talking about stuff everyone we know?

[Veraticus]

Well, technically, Pirotess, I did ask Icemage the question, and he gave me an honest response -- that, despite Elvaan's high MND, they become relatively ineffective healers at higher levels, as they don't have a large enough magic pool.

And, while it is true that there is something to be said for the fun factor of playing whatever character you want, to some extent you must realize that part of the fun of the game is also doing well in it. You'll be constantly frustrated -- as will your party -- if, as people claim, you won't be able to provide sufficient healing to get them through a skill chain. Having a (really!) low MP pool will be a gigantic handicap at major levels. Though, really, I'm already starting to feel the crunch at 13-14... though part of that is just me wishing that Cure II scaled as well as Cure I did. 30 heal for 8 MP > 74 heal for 24 MP.

Similarly with Tarutaru warriors. Yes, fine, it's fun, unique, different -- and they won't be able to keep aggro at high levels because everyone will outdamage them by a lot.

So, to a certain extent, fine, I agree that you should play whatever job you like. But if you do, then don't expect things to necessarily work out for you at high levels, and that's the truth of it.

[Veraticus]

I was just rereading your posts, Icemage, and I wanted to thank you once again for all your good advice. The job track you've laid out will almost certainly be the one that I'm gonna follow. I'm undecided, as yet, whether to get all the way to 25 or just stop at 20, but I'll probably be able to decide that by the time I hit 20, depending on how many friends I have and how the healing is going. In any event, thanks again, you rock. =)

[Icemage]

You're welcome, Veraticus. Best of luck to you!

In response to Pirotess:

It really is not my intent when I post comparisons of different job/race combinations to discourage people who are planning unusual characters. Even so, for most people, it's a lot more fun if you're aware of potential obstacles before they hit you in the face unexpectedly. I had a lot of opportunity to observe what works and what doesn't during my stint during the FFXI beta, and learned a lot by observing how different players reacted and responded to the challenge of playing each specific build.

I really respect people who try unusual builds and do well with them, but it's saddening when I see someone get extremely discouraged because the job/race combination they chose isn't working for them, or doesn't suit their play style. So... when I post information, I make an effort to make it clear as to not only what seems to work/doesn't work, but WHY I think it's so. And before anyone accuses me of supporting "cookie cutter" builds to the exclusion of all else, I'll note that I played up to WHM50/RDM21 in the beta (a combination "most" people feel is inferior to the standard WHM/BLM or WHM/SMN), and found it both enjoyable and quite effective.


Icemage

[Veraticus]

I hate to resurrect a dead topic, but I'm having problems with this again.

Got to level 20, subbed WAR, got to level 12. But it's destroyed my levelling party, all of whom subbed the first 10 levels of a new job and then went back to their old ones for 20/10's. They don't have a constant WHM anymore, and they want me back, and though I've tried explaining to them I'll be gimp, they want me anyway.

So I'm considering raising BLK to 15 and levelling WHM to 30. Could I possibly sub Summoner, at that point, to get MP or something? I dunno. Any advice would be appreciated -- I'm kind of stuck with this job for a bit, it seems.

[tomfin10]

Subbing SMN will get you an extremely small amount more MP than subbing BLM... and with BLM you get Warp and most of the BLM spells that help you... but with WHM, SMN can be subbed for the support abilities. ^^