pt config with a smn

[sudo]

it seems like a nin tank is almost a requirement for a smn to function as a smn. But have anyone had exceptional results with a pld tank?

[Sharma]

Originally posted by sudo
it seems like a nin tank is almost a requirement for a smn to function as a smn. But have anyone had exceptional results with a pld tank?

Well, i'd say nin tank was a pre-req if smn is the only healer in your PT.

The no dmg taken and only having to heal now and again > Taking dmg all the time and having to heal a lot more with subjob heals.

[tnt118]

I've been in a quite a few PTs with both smn main and sub over the past couple of months. Here are my thoughts:

The best SMN-involved PT's that I've personally been in have used NIN tanks (and this is nothing against PLD). Whenever you get earthen ward, that gives the NIN a huge window to get Utsusemi recast. This will allow you to function as main healer without much stress. Otherwise you'll look to have at least one member provide backup (although frequent) healing.

SMN/BRD/RDM doesn't strike me as a good combo, because they are all support classes. You'll have too much support, and not enough PCs to be supported. With NIN tank, I think BRD is a better choice, and with PLD tank RDM a better (if nothing else, easier) choice. SMN/BRD/RDM will likely have too much MP, and nothing to spend it on.

I'd much rather see BLM replace either the BRD or RDM (again, depending on tank) for more pure damage. With smart players and good equipment, you'll still likely have more MP than you can spend at higher levels.

At the higher levels (65+), PT configuration should also revolve around skillchain combination. Of all the melee (war/mnk/drk/thf/drg) I don't see SMN helping one more than another, although people who have actually played the class would have better insight on that. So once you've got your fellow support member figured out, and tank, I'd fill the rest of the slots with whatever will make the best skillchain.

As an aside, here's a link to an awesome writeup on how to figure PT combinations around lvl 3 skillchains:

Link

Many thanks to Synbios for writting that up.

[contagiondc]

There is no *one* best PT configuration for a Summoner. In fact, due to its versatility, SMN can be fit into various PT configs that will result in high EXP / hour output rates.

With a good Ninja tank (post level 37), a SMN can use Earthen Ward at certain intervals (NOT every minute), in order to provide an extra layer of defense for the Ninja to recast Utsusemi. With a Ninja tank, Aerial Armor should not be used. When partying with a Paladin tank, Aerial Armor is extremely useful.

The introduction of Fenrir's Ecliptic Howl makes the Summoner useful in other regards, by adding accuracy/evasion bonuses, which have a set timer of 3 minutes. This relatively long-lasting buff allows you to have 2 other Blood Pacts thrown in between each E. Howl. You should adapt to the party, utilizing Aerial Armors, Earthen Wards, etc.

The key to being a good SMN is to adapt to the PT. If you have another mage who can cast Haste, then do NOT use Hastega (which is a weaker and shorter lasting version of the real spell). If you have a Ninja tank, do NOT use Aerial Armor (unless for example, you get adds which are being slept by your BRD, BLM, or RDM -- then you should do Aerial Armor to protect them when the monster wakes up). If you are fighting Damselfly type mobs who do Cursed Sphere, or Goblins with Bombs - then Earthen Ward is useful. If you have no RDM or WHM in your PT to Haste, then a Hastega at the beginning of each fight would be quite useful, because Hastega will stack with the BRD's March (if you have BRD). If you have a PT with RNG and THF, then Accuracy/Evasion Bonus is not as important. Ideally, you would check the moon phase, and if it's in the 0-50% range, you can do Ecliptic Growl, which would give a nice AGI boost to the Ranger for Ranged Accuracy. The AGI boost would also assist in Evasion for your tank.

The LV 70+ game for Summoner is different in many ways, but it's still all about adaptation. We cannot always expect the perfect PT configuration, so you might end up partying with a WHM. If that's the case, the Summoner should adjust by using Blood Pacts that add damage, such as Predator Claws, Eclipse Bite, Spinning Dive, etc. If partying with a BLM, then concentrate should be adjusted on buffing your PT, so TP can be built quickly to allow for skillchains and an incredibly powerful BLM Magic Burst. If AoE devastates your PT and hate hasn't been properly secured, Carbuncle's Healing Ruby II is a perfect way to get a Curaga III type healing effect without any hate.

There is no one perfect PT configuration for a Summoner, but a Summoner who knows what they're doing, can adapt and contribute in many ways.

As a side note, SMN's should also practice being efficient in between Blood Pacts. Erase, Regen, Cures, Status Effects should always be done quickly. Also, because the SMN runs back and forth from melee zone to mage zone, the SMN is perfect for countering mage-mobs with Bar-spells. Although the level of enhancing magic skill cannot match that of a RDM or WHM, the SMN should watch out for monsters to cast elemental magic, and IMMEDIATELY counter by casting the respective bar-spell. For example, if you see the Spartoi Sorcerer (skeleton-mage) cast Water IV, cast Barwater ASAP to counter it. I can effectively counter at least 50% of all elemental magic cast on the PT. It's more important with a PLD tank because the PLD actually takes the hit. Ninja's can absorb these spells luckily. There's a reason that the casting time for Bar-spells is so short -- it's because you can actually counter spell by spell; not just cast Barfira at the beginning (like with Goblins).

Anyhow, that's my two cents on SMN strategy.

Tanthalas
Pandemonium Server
75 Summoner
kupoâ„¢ HNM LS
Genbu & Suzaku Defeated - Kirin, here we come...

[sudo]

you bring up very good points and I agree with your comments, tanthalas. It is every job's duty to adapt to the situation.

However, it has been noted, to be the most efficient smn there can be in a standard pt w/o being the main healer, one should be resting between the blood pact timers. This is not a good thing to do with the magic countering stuff you bring up. To stand up and then run in to help block a nuke would take too long.

The blood pact mp uses are wayyy too high for what they do. To not rest would be crippling to how long a smn can effectively do it's job.

Also, a smn is probably the worst job to do this as smn has no enhancing skill. The bar-ga spells powers are direcly based on enhancing skill which every other mage would be able to out do the smn since there is no innate enhancing skill.

a blm or drk stun or drk + pld's weapon and shield bash would work better also. Other jobs do not need to run up to the front line to cast the bar-ga spells. Doing it from the back works too. Ppl just don't do it very often is because they have everything gaged in chat filter so they don't see that stuff. Also, macro space is limited. Ppl are lazy and don't want to write new macros everytime. That's mostly the player's fault, kudo's for you to being a good player and changing your play style.


I know that carbuncle curega III would be pretty good to help heal AOE damage w/o hate but I really think that to wait a minute sometimes to get that heal would be WAYYYY too long. A simple curga + divine seal would work about as good and much much faster. A decently competent tank can hold hate easily enough for when a curga III will actually be needed.

True, a smn must adapt but in the current incarnation, smn simply cannot adapt fast enough to function in a full back up role. A brd would probably do much much better. The only thing that smn can out do a brd would be to act as a main healer.

if smn isn't throwing on the buffs, then he's not functioning well enough. If he is, then he's using up his bp's and looses his power to adapt in anything more than a subbed whm role.

You bring up very good points. I agree with pretty much all of them but there are some points I disagee with.

[contagiondc]

Carbuncle Healing Ruby II and such spells that are done w/o hate are most useful in HNM battles when, unfortunately, the amount of damage inflicted by the monster far outweighs that done by the tank, and hate is very difficult to control in early stages. A Curaga III would mean certain death for any mage.

Take, for example, Genbu. Even with Spirits Within in the early stage of combat, BLM's and such should not use Elemental Magic for a good 3-4 minutes while hate is being secured. Let's say, for instance, Genbu pulls off a Waterga III w/o stun, any WHM who cures their PT with a ga to full is certainly an ideal target for Genbu, who has been taking 0-3 points of damage per hit by melees.

[Kalel]

Okay being a 37 summoner and 72 white mage, I tell you my experience. Yes summoner at times can take whm place if they high enought to have stoneskin and blink to cut curing down. But before 40 its decent curer but if partys gets in deepp trouble you dead. Cause smn doesn't have raise till 50 and no reraise, no high lvl cures and all status effect spells come later. Smns should be only support healers not main healers, that is my experience and opinion.

When you have whm and a smn in party and good melees you should have no down time and easy chains, even better with bard in party too. Summoner is support job just like whm rdm and bard. Again they all almost similar but yet different. Rdm can do heals too and party buffs but with no whm they too cannot be enough to heal party if in deep trouble-most ppl in red. Smns like rdms are back up healers.

They are meant for pulling (with carby), buffing party, minor attacking-smn help other members dmg monster without drawing too much heat and back up heal.

If you actually play smn, you should what I am saying.

[Oceanfish]

While I agree that SMN are in no way ever really efficiently a main healer, I don't think that a good pt config would have SMN and WHM. An RDM in place of either or in a party is infinitely more useful. ie, WHM + RDM, SMN + RDM
Small but noticeable MBs, Refresh, strong debuffing, chainspell escape, convert/etc.

[Tabmow]

I agree,a SMN and a WHM party doesent work as well as a SMN RDM party,with refresh,auto regen and a dark staff equiped,my MP regen ability is great and if i use hobgoblin chocolate as well its almost overkill The RDM buffs compliment mine.
I`ve usually been partying with PLDs as the tank but a NIN tank is far superior IMO, i had a pt in Crawlers last night that consisted of Smn/whm (me), Nin/War,Blk/Whm, Rdm/Blm,Mnk/War,Drk/Thf.
There was very little down time,i mainly used Earthen ward and hastega for buffs,with the occasional Aerial armor thrown in for the other 5 members,the rest of the time i was healing and resting.MP never went below 200,the Blm was getting more damage than the Nin due to some occasional over zealous nuking but for the most part this was one of the best parties i`ve been in.