SMN- FFXI's Biggest dissapoint?

[Macht]

As far as the blood pact being seperate I'm sure there was a balancing reason for it, what that is I'm not completly sure. It's either that or Blood Pacts intented purpose was to only be used 1 time to give some grand amount of damage or give some grand boost.

If that's the case then the Blood Pact abilities may be what's to weak and needs a large improvement. The other is that maybe the use of multiple pacts like that created some sort of hate control issues (Monster being easily put on the Summons, then when summons leaves hate is lost there) were it could potentially make the SMN to powerful.

I don't know about having the En- series from the go, that seems like it would make them to powerful.

EDIT:

I do have to say though that the part about the En- series seems like that could be expanded on. That's something I'm not entirely sure at all what kind of impact it would/could have.

[phaze]

So basically the avatar should be set to 1 min recast period.. on all of them.
And the abilities should have seperate timers.

This opens up the possibility of rotating through the avatars quickly and blasting away with each one's high-damage Blood Pact, after lv70. Summoners would be able to cause lots of damage with almost no generated hate.

With current summoning costs and MP-Slip, I'm guessing this would be imbalanced, particularly solo'ing and for HNM fights. If the summoning costs and MP-Slip were balanced, you're still giving summoners the option of higher damage capacity than they currently have (just at a more balanced cost).

It's up to the dev's to decide if they want to allow the 'quickly dump all my mp into damage spells' approach for summoners. But I would expect them to reserve that for BLMs, since they actually have to consider the generated hate from all that damage.

[phaze]

Alright you tell me what balance do you see with the upkeep and mp cost. I'm curious to see what you are figuring, since I'm most likely not the same race and such you'll probably want to provided stats related to this change as it is now and how you see it being changed to. Give me something of hard data so I can work out the math and effects over time and such to see how it is and how it would effect it.

From the other discussions, I feel that the job would play more as a summoner, if we dropped the penalty for having the avatar out: no MP-Slip. Instead, we push the 'penalty' into the cost to summon: making summoning mp cost be 2x your summoner's level seems to be a moderately balanced value for leaving the summon out. Some BPs may need their mp costs adjusted as well, but this would of course require testing.

Summoners are rewarded the longer they keep their avatar out, by not using mp to summon repeatedly. Combined with individual BP timers, summoners could use one of an avatar's BPs, activate a second one a bit later, and have the option of waiting out the first BP's timer before dismissing and resting up; all while having the avatar out and possibly doing melee attacks. It's then up to the summoner to choose when to release the pet, in order to rest for mp (unlike the current system which forces you into dismissing fast, to avoid as much MP-Slip as possible).

Is this suggested mp cost too much/too little? Beats me, I'm in no position to test this out! The final adjustments for summoning and BP mp costs (if the overall ideas are added to the job) are up to the people in charge of the Summoner job in the first place: the developers and members of the Live Team.

[Oceanfish]

If you just take away the MP slip and do that, you still couldn't really make use of that 2x lv MP cost for keepng the avatar out for only one fight. You would have to allow resting with it out to really make it worthwhile for party play. And if you've done that, you've created a huge balance issue with BST. So, you would have to add a penalty to balance that out--such as if said avatar dies, it can't be resummoned until next game day or its element day or something.

The easiest solution would be to lower the drain of mp, increase the damage from regular melee attacks. Either or both.

[poppipo]

galaxia stfu are u trying to start a flaming post?

"bsts are lame and pointless" yu know what? i get more invites than theifs and summoners at my lvs cus everyone knows how much dmg i can do with a pet and my axe, plus i can solo whenever i want.

Damn moron....

[Lokee]

I'm sorry to say that summoner is possibly the most fun and entertaining job i have played thus far. It requires more skill, time, and determination that other jobs because it is so in depth.

I must say to those who are complaining, if you dont like it simply switch your job. Yes it does take alot of time and it sucks having to lvl the summoning magic skill, but thats to be expected, it comes with the job. Maybe thats why it is still a underplayed role.

I also dont like having to raise fame, but in the end it will help you out anyway, so i do believe summoner is the most in depth and best job a player could possibly do. Because everything you do as a summoner has a point^^


PLayer Name: Lokee
Server: Ragnarok
Linkshell: Shinra.Co
Main Job: Summoner
Sub Job: White Mage

[Galaxia]

I said I think they are so you stfu

[Oceanfish]

Originally posted by Lokee
I'm sorry to say that summoner is possibly the most fun and entertaining job i have played thus far. It requires more skill, time, and determination that other jobs because it is so in depth.

I must say to those who are complaining, if you dont like it simply switch your job. Yes it does take alot of time and it sucks having to lvl the summoning magic skill, but thats to be expected, it comes with the job. Maybe thats why it is still a underplayed role.

I also dont like having to raise fame, but in the end it will help you out anyway, so i do believe summoner is the most in depth and best job a player could possibly do. Because everything you do as a summoner has a point^^

lol
Have you levelled summoner past 10? Do you know...anything...about the job, first hand, other than that "you can summon avatars?" FYI, people don't play it because summoning magic is hard to raise (and it is unbelievably ridiculously hard at higher levels, ranging from 2-6 hours of nonstop summoning per point) because it really doesn't make a difference anyhow (I'm max skill at 75 with +20-32, the only difference I can say is I have a greater chance of not having spell interrupted). They don't play it because the job has little use in higher level parties and content.

It doesn't require time, skill, and determination. Well, maybe time and determination in terms of finding a party because the job is weak compared to the other mage jobs. Skill? If skill is hitting your macro for titan or garuda every minute or so and scrolling through a menu and hitting enter on an ability, then releasing, you can call it whatever you want.

Everything every job does has a point. This is what makes summoner unique? You need to re-evaluate your synapsis of the job. There is no "magical" or "special" trick to making summoner good when it's just not up to par. Thanks and drive through.

[Deedlit]

If you really feel that way Ocean, why don't you stop playing SMN? I mean really, you have yet to say anything good about the job.

Myself, I'm having loads of fun on HNM fights. Dunno about you, but my damage seems to be pretty damn good.

[tazirai]

Originally posted by Oceanfish
[B They don't play it because the job has little use in higher level parties and content.


Well, maybe time and determination in terms of finding a party because the job is weak compared to the other mage jobs. Skill? If skill is hitting your macro for titan or garuda every minute or so and scrolling through a menu and hitting enter on an ability, then releasing, you can call it whatever you want.

Everything every job does has a point. This is what makes summoner unique? You need to re-evaluate your synapsis of the job. There is no "magical" or "special" trick to making summoner good when it's just not up to par. Thanks and drive through. [/B]

I disagree completely...
bad summoner = summon one mons every minute
and cure tank.

Good summoner = get lots of PT's because they do more than cure and stoneskin/blink.

It does take skill to be a summoner.. You can follow the pure smn/whm cure tank role.. which if you have a dedicated healer you wont need much anyway.

Or the buff/debuff/nuke attack role.

people tend to forget that a summoners damage doesnt have to be earth shattering.

Example:
MOnk hits hit defense crab for say 37 damage
ifrit hits for 27 damage.

That added 27 = crab will die even faster.
Then want to do some magic damage summon ramuh for thunder on said crab.
Then enthunder your PT.
Then when enthunder runs out do ANOTHER thunder magic attack.
Crab does its AOE bubble attack.
Summon leviathan to cure the PT .
if you get an add let shiva tackle it..let her do her sleepga onit.. then have her stop attacking.
Whm = bored.. because the summoner already did Ba-watera.
and a low level curega = healed PT.


Summoner has its places.. Its just that most even sad to say it.. high up summoners still dont understand how to play one.. 75 = sat in front of PC/PS2 for awhile... thats all.
(thats not a dis BTW)

If a smn/rdm without fenrir can out PT a smn/whm with dog.. its not the job...

[Oceanfish]

Originally posted by Deedlit
If you really feel that way Ocean, why don't you stop playing SMN? I mean really, you have yet to say anything good about the job.

Myself, I'm having loads of fun on HNM fights. Dunno about you, but my damage seems to be pretty damn good.

Summoner itself has really an interesting line of abilities, unfortunately many are bad, and some are downright useless.
I did not come to this conclusion until I experienced nearly all endgame content with it, and levelled to 75 with it because I wanted to give it a fair shot. Needless to say, I was underwhelmed. I think the job should have it's own niche, like every other job, but it really doesn't. I want to see it tuned in a manner that makes it a part of the game rather than some job that is just out there. I don't sugarcoat or pull my punches, I just tell people how the job really is. If you don't like it, please just skip my posts using the page down feature on your keyboard.

That aside,
Parse your damage VS a Ranger or BLM over the course of an HNM fight. Unless you're fighting monsters that are the low level HNMs (Behemoth,Simurgh,King Arthro,Roc,Serket,etc--which are really not endgame content) you will see that they own you in about every way possible. I don't mind that Summoner isn't better or the same damage as these jobs if it was meant to be something different, but I do mind that if it is being broadcast as a damage dealer, that it isn't.


tazirai:

I am not a poorly skilled summoner, and I know many are. I simply don't come out and start a parade about how great I am, I don't need or want to.

Yes, while your ifrit may hit such and such crab for 27 while the monk hits 37, don't forget the monk also has the chance to hit twice, can contribute to strong skillchains which lead to good magic burst, and doesn't cost mp (other than healing, but with SATA that shouldn't even be much of an issue).

The example you give doesn't give much light to the job, either, no offense.
You're talking about using: Thunder4, Rolling Thunder, Thunder4, Sleepga all in the course of 1 battle? I don't know what kind of slow killing party this is, but my god... In 70+ pt a BLM can use less MP and destroy something with a 4/ga3 burst more than all that damage will be from those avatar moves, and also for less mp.
WHM in the same party too? No wonder killing so slow. Their barwatera can give about 30 more resist than a SMN's, too, but I think they're more likely to be bored from the kill time than casting barspell.

[tazirai]

Originally posted by Oceanfish
Summoner itself has really an interesting line of abilities, unfortunately many are bad, and some are downright useless.
I did not come to this conclusion until I experienced nearly all endgame content with it, and levelled to 75 with it because I wanted to give it a fair shot. Needless to say, I was underwhelmed. I think the job should have it's own niche, like every other job, but it really doesn't. I want to see it tuned in a manner that makes it a part of the game rather than some job that is just out there. I don't sugarcoat or pull my punches, I just tell people how the job really is. If you don't like it, please just skip my posts using the page down feature on your keyboard.

That aside,
Parse your damage VS a Ranger or BLM over the course of an HNM fight. Unless you're fighting monsters that are the low level HNMs (Behemoth,Simurgh,King Arthro,Roc,Serket,etc--which are really not endgame content) you will see that they own you in about every way possible. I don't mind that Summoner isn't better or the same damage as these jobs if it was meant to be something different, but I do mind that if it is being broadcast as a damage dealer, that it isn't.


tazirai:

I am not a poorly skilled summoner, and I know many are. I simply don't come out and start a parade about how great I am, I don't need or want to.

Yes, while your ifrit may hit such and such crab for 27 while the monk hits 37, don't forget the monk also has the chance to hit twice, can contribute to strong skillchains which lead to good magic burst, and doesn't cost mp (other than healing, but with SATA that shouldn't even be much of an issue).

The example you give doesn't give much light to the job, either, no offense.
You're talking about using: Thunder4, Rolling Thunder, Thunder4, Sleepga all in the course of 1 battle? I don't know what kind of slow killing party this is, but my god... In 70+ pt a BLM can use less MP and destroy something with a 4/ga3 burst more than all that damage will be from those avatar moves, and also for less mp.
WHM in the same party too? No wonder killing so slow. Their barwatera can give about 30 more resist than a SMN's, too, but I think they're more likely to be bored from the kill time than casting barspell.

true you make some good points ^^

iI just used the en thing as an example.. theres more to it than the example shows of course.. but its just an example.
and anything I said wasnt directed at you.

[Deedlit]

Ocean, I'm talking about Tu'lia god mobs (except Kirin and Byakko, but those are coming up soon).

[Oceanfish]

You should compare your damage to the BLMs and RNG, you come nowhere close. I'm not saying this is a problem at the root, but the root problem is SMN lacks specialty.