Announcement

**phaze** · 06-23-2004, 06:02 AM

The next group of suggestions are for making the job more of a 'Summoner', and less of a '1-ability-per-minute MP tank that subs White Mage for heals". While this is currently a valid job role, the Summoner job could be much more flexible (and desirable to groups) with some changes. These suggestions are aimed at giving the Summoner the option of keeping the summon out, and actually behaving as a Summoner rather than a flashy White Mage. Oceanfish's comments:

The key is to make SMN able to contribute more of its abilities to the party rather than playing SMN once every 60 seconds and another job the rest of the time. I am not against healing at all. WHM sub is an incredibly useful tool. My only complaint is that the SMN abilities don't hold as much desireability in a party in comparison to a WHM,BLM,BRD,or RDM at higher levels. I don't mind other jobs having these great abilities, I just want to be able to contribute more from my job to the party.

1. Remove MP-Slip

MP-Slip is the factor that prevents a summon being useful if left out. The routine of a Summoner is to summon, use BP, then dismiss, all as fast as possible to minimize MP-Slip. This is one of the reasons Summoners are forced to rely on their subjob spells. Considerations for balance, on removing MP-Slip:

- if the summon's combat effectiveness is unchanged (mediocre damage, low accuracy), the initial summoning cost (in MP) should be increased slightly for the summon to compensate for no MP-Slip; this will keep the status-quo.

- if the combat effectiveness is weakened for summons (hit for less, miss more), the initial summoning cost (in MP) should be decreased. This moves the summon away from 'a week melee unit with special BP abilities', and towards 'a means for having BP abilities, with some minor extra damage'.
The summon becomes less of a combatant and is used mainly for the BPs.

- if the combat effectiveness is improved for summons (either better damage or better accuracy), the initial cost should be increased significantly. This mode would give a decent melee unit in addition to the BPs that are available, so should naturally cost more to summon.

- different summons could have different levels of combat effectiveness. Ifrit has often been associated with strong attacks, while Shiva is normally magic-based; this system could be used to give summons individuality, apart from their BPs.

**phaze** · 06-23-2004, 06:03 AM

2. Remove unified BP timer

The single BP timer is a very restrictive mechanism; coupled with MP-Slip, it unnecessarily limits what a Summoner can do. A more flexible system would be to have individual timers for each BP. They could either be kept at the same 1-min timer for each, or have customized amounts of time. Considerations:

- if the individual timers are kept at 1 minute each, the MP cost for each ability would need to be adjusted to a balanced value (or each BP itself strengthened or weakened as necessary).

- if each BP has their timer adjusted independently, then both the time restriction AND the MP cost would have to be balanced together (as well as relative strength of the BP, if modifying this).

- this could go hand-in-hand with the above suggestion of individual combat effectiveness. Ifrit could be a strong melee'er, but his BPs would have long timers/high MP costs/weaker power; Shiva could be physically weak, but have shorter timers/lower MP costs/stronger power on her BPs. Plenty of options to choose from!

3. Adjust any imbalanced areas/abilities

This is the tricky part: making sure a modified summoning system doesn't result in imbalances. Most of the above suggestions have self-regulating components mentioned with them, but there are also item changes to consider (no MP-Slip means the items that reduce slippage would need to be modified, etc.).

In addition, there are effects in other, non-party areas. This would change the way that Summoners solo; since the current solo'ing often relies on items that reduce MP-Slip, how well would solo'ing work once those items are adjusted to the new system? Another solo'ing method is to simply summon a new HP buffer each time the current one dies (usually Carbuncle due to lower natural MP-Slip). Would this method be less/more effective, and would it need adjusting?

Another thing to keep in mind: would individual BP timers make it too easy for Summoners to 'unload' their MP by cycling through summons and using their strongest attacks (particularly at higher levels)? Would this be a bad thing, if MP costs were balanced?
One simple way to prevent this (if desired) would be to add a minimum wait time between releasing one summon and summoning the next. Start the timer when the summon is released (possibly defeated as well), and don't allow another summon until the timer is up. Another solution is to adjust these strong attacks so that they wouldn't be overpowered in the new system. Again, these are all options available.

What I'd like to hear is feedback on these suggestions. I'm very interested in how full-time summoners feel about their job, and the changes proposed above. Would they benefit you, hinder you, or not affect your playstyle? Keep in mind that these changes are for all levels of play; high-level Summoners may need some additional adjustments.

**Karinya** · 06-23-2004, 07:15 AM

I think the biggest way to improve summoner is to improve the summons' combat abilities. Elementals should cast sooner and more frequently, and have built in en spells of their element on their physical attacks. All summons (except Fenrir who is already pretty cheap for what you get), especially elementals, should have less mp slip than currently (I don't agree that they should have none, though - you're paying MP to have the summon attacking, which is extra damage and shouldn't be completely free). Avatar combat ability might be about right if mp slip for them was reduced. And elementals should get an astral flow ability - maybe the ancient magics, Holy and Meteor.

I think summoners should be less reliant on blood pacts, not more. The fact that summons are only useful for their blood pacts is what leads to the summon-BP-dismiss tactics. Reducing the blood pact timer or making it separate for separate summons would be a step in the wrong direction.

I also think all 16 summons should be useful in the right situations. Currently the elementals are *severely* gimped - they cost more mp to do less damage than an avatar and have no blood pact or astral flow abilities.

Gaining summon skill faster would be good - most jobs can keep their important skills capped just by fighting in exp parties enough to get to the next level. Maybe it should also be checked whenever the summon attacks or uses an ability (including elementals casting on their own), since those things also use summon magic skill.

**Oceanfish** · 06-24-2004, 12:46 AM

Some good ideas, but they need to be thought about more.

It would be severely unbalancing to put individual timers on the moves with the current summoning cost, without mp drain. A summoner could destroy the crap out of stuff 70+ without picking up any aggro. It would be neat and all, but no.
That's why in my suggestions, I suggested a new formula for summoning cost, lv*2-3 for example, but no mp slip, to prevent the shuffling of pets to do big damage. In my idea, mp reducing items would change from -x/3s to -x% summoning cost down, where 1/3s=10%.

The avatar melee ability/accuracy outside the special techs is fine. It's not very strong, not very weak.

As far as completely revamping avatar melee/magic abilities per avatar? Nah, they're fine that way as is. The magic is horrible anyhow.

And spirits have a good set of abilities. They can get BLM 1-4 spells, ancient magic, various debuffs, buffs, and cures. They just need to change the summoning cost/mp drain and make the abilities come out faster. They don't need astral flow abilities.

**Malamasala** · 06-24-2004, 03:24 AM

I don't find the blood pact timers that awful. Mostly because if I'm not required to heal, that 1 min is pretty good for resting back all those mp used in the pact. I do feel pretty useless most of the battles doing this though, but no downtime is also nice. The best thing would be avatar out + rest but that would be too unbalanced.

What I dislike most is that some abilities like shining ruby and ice spikes hardly last through one battle. I'm fairly sure protectra + shellra cost less than shining ruby, and they last about 15 times longer. I guess this would be ok if shining ruby was 15 times as effective as protectra + shellra. But it isn't.

I also think that all avatars should be equal in damage, hp, and mp-slip. This also implies a "carbuncles mittens" type of item for all the avatars. This to let you choose the correct avatar for the correct mob, instead of possibly go carbuncle or fenrir because they cost less. Giving them all added elemental damage to their attacks would also look nice. Possibly even unbalancing it so their regular attacks would need lowering.

Also, it's very frustrating spending 50ish mp on an ability that miss. I do understand that it's the eqvivalent (sp?) of a whm or rdm casting paralyze and getting it resisted, but I don't think whm or rdm got that many enfeebles that cost 50ish mp. (Not counting summoning and mp-slip). I'd like them to change it so it's an always hit thing using abilities, but that a miss would equal half damage or something. After all, it's once a minute with the current blood pacts.

I think I've mentioned most things I've been thinking about. Except the elementals which Oceanfish covered well. Also agreeing about the summoning skill increase. An idea of mine would be to check it on each mp-slip. After all, it would be like constantly casting cure I almost.

Oh yes, I think the reason for the one min timer is that the avatar isn't supposed to easily outdamage the tank and become a free tank for the group.

**Oceanfish** · 06-24-2004, 08:28 AM

Avatars would never be "free tanks" in a balanced party.
Their moves themselves generate very little hate, and if you have the AF on they generate even less.

The problem is not the strength of the shining ruby, etc moves. The problem is not being able to do anything else for a minute while waiting for blood pact to recycle.

Nerfing the avatar melee to add auto-enspells? Why? You would nerf their phys. damage moves in the process for the sake of aesthetics. Not such a good idea. heh

If you suggest adding in gloves for every avatar..wasting 8 slots of inventory for something only smn can use, why not just reduce or remove the mp slip completely? Items are never a solution to a broken core.

I'm not flaming you or anything, just I don't think any of those hold much water..

**Malamasala** · 06-24-2004, 12:35 PM

It isn't for aesthetics, but for motivating and rewarding the use of correct element on the correct mob. Moreso than just using their elemental damage blood pacts.

And what is wrong with the 8 slots of gloves? You do realise they got the same thing in staffs, just less efficient. If you don't complain on carrying 8 staffs, then I don't think you should complain on 8 gloves. (but possibly on all 16 of them -_-)
But you are right, they could reduce or remove the slip instead. It was just a suggestion for evening out the summons usage instead of limiting the effectiveness of summoner to just 2 summons.

And don't worry, I don't take replies as flaming.

**Kalel** · 06-24-2004, 01:27 PM

Its funny how FFXI makes the game all about money and take away from the fun. If you have to buy equipment for every so 5-10 levels, buy equipment for every darn element, you never have fun but worry about money like in real life.
They just need to improve the job. I love the job, but being considered as a weak whm is not good. Subs should only benefit the main not take away from the job. Hell sum sub helps your whm main with mp, refresh. Whm sub gives lots of options to sum but it also takes away from the focus of the job: summons.

Summoner is for using summons not using its sub as main.

Only a few things need to be corrected that would help job:
- Take away mp usage while summon is out, only use mp when abilities are used
- Artifact armor for summoner needs to help job alot more. Yes first set of artifact kinda sucks too. But at least it gets refresh on armor for second set of artifact. Yes Summoners have auto-refresh but I think armor should have refresh on it as well. Seeing 70+ summoners using Vermillian cloak vice artifact armor is just plain sad.

:confused:

**Oceanfish** · 06-24-2004, 03:52 PM

Summoner AF is fine. The only change that would be nice is to add something else to the horn. It's just..lacking. Like -1 to avatar cost or something.

The glove ability is so super good when used correctly.

The legs/feet abilities are very useful as well.

Melee jobs AF is practically outdated as soon as they get it. At least SMN af is very usable 60+.

And as a note, NO SMN AF gives auto-refresh of any kind. Neither does the SMN JSE; -avatar prep is less powerful and less useful than auto-refresh, at least at the -1 level. The AF2 piece and HQ austere robe are very nice however.

**Tikipiki** · 06-25-2004, 08:56 AM

Hehe

I've only thought about this topic for a short time so I won't go overboard with ideas yet till I have time to think them over. Additionally since I'm only 33 I have a lot of experiences to cover first. I think the main problem is that the smn skill, while rumored to affect smns, does absolutely nothing to affect bps. I remember as a whm in valkurm casting protectra that it lasted for an inordinately short time until I leveled up my enhancing. Bar spells were even shorter. Elemental magic skill helps me cut through resists, dark skill helps me to aspir/drain tons, and enfeebling magic helps me cut through resist/be more effective with my enfeelbes. Smn skill is just a hard to raise number that does nothing except maybe increase the amount of times your 2hr caps and how many times your avatar connects for mediocre dmg

I don't care that the skill is hard to level up, since it's the only skill we have to level up as opposed to three magic skills for whm, two for blm, and way to many for rdm. But it would be nice to see that it affects the duration and magnitude of bloodpacts and avatar strength.

Tikipiki

**phaze** · 06-26-2004, 06:51 PM

Sorry for the delay in responses, making sure I think my replies through. =) I'll split this up again, since some points are separate.

It would be severely unbalancing to put individual timers on the moves with the current summoning cost, without mp drain. A summoner could destroy the crap out of stuff 70+ without picking up any aggro. It would be neat and all, but no.
That's why in my suggestions, I suggested a new formula for summoning cost, lv*2-3 for example, but no mp slip, to prevent the shuffling of pets to do big damage.

I agree, the MP cost for bringing out the summon should be adjusted. As for the amount, MP cost of 2x your level seems the cleanest. This would match the MP cost for the Astral Flow BPs; a minor point, but always nice to be able to re-use some numbers. =)

I'm still concerned about how this modifies BP use for the high-damage attacks; the option remains for the summoner to shuffle through the avatars for their attacks, at a large expense of MP. The existing system prevents this with the single 1-min timer; so the question is whether the new system should allow it.

If allowed, we just need to ensure the damage output is balanced with the MP cost; this may require changing either the MP cost of those BPs, or the amount of damage they do. Properly balanced, i personally feel this is the best solution; it keeps the restrictions simple.

If S-E does NOT want summoners to be able to 'MP-dump' for damage, then some sort of throttle would be needed. I mentioned one way in point 3: add a mininum time between releasing one avatar and summoning the next. Again, I personally don't like this choice, but it IS an option to consider. (You get to keep the high-damage attack, but can't use it anytime you want, similar the current system).

In my idea, mp reducing items would change from -x/3s to -x% summoning cost down, where 1/3s=10%.

This sounds good to me, as well. Seems a good balance for the revised system (For a concrete example: instead of an item reducing MP-Slip by -2, it reduces summoning MP cost by 20%).

The avatar melee ability/accuracy outside the special techs is fine. It's not very strong, not very weak.

As far as completely revamping avatar melee/magic abilities per avatar? Nah, they're fine that way as is. The magic is horrible anyhow.

The increase/decrease/keep-same options for strength and individualism were listed for completeness.

My personal opionion: I agree, their melee damage is fine . I'm also perfectly happy with all avatars remaining equal rather than adusting each individually; although if the magic for all the avatars is horrible, that's an area for possible improvement later. =)

**phaze** · 06-26-2004, 07:09 PM

here's the next part

Currently the elementals are *severely* gimped - they cost more mp to do less damage than an avatar and have no blood pact or astral flow abilities

With MP-Slip removed, I'm not sure how much the spirits need improved separately. If needed, they could have a reduced MP cost for summoning (1x level? 1.5x?). Alternatively, they could cast their spells more often, as Oceanfish has suggested.

Either of those options would work fine, IF needed. The balancing question: With no MP-Slip, would a Spirit be worth keeping out for their spells? My feelings on this: Spirits are currently toy spells, and see no real use; fixing them can wait until later, if removing MP-Slip isn't enough.

**phaze** · 06-26-2004, 07:19 PM

final response for now:

Smn skill is just a hard to raise number that does nothing except maybe increase the amount of times your 2hr caps and how many times your avatar connects for mediocre dmg

I agree on this; the only options for increasing performance for summoners are currently maxing the summoning skill (for limited effect), and (like all the other mages) improving mp management (increasing max, more regen, less slip). Summon strength is mostly independent of the summoner.

Also, in the new system, letting your summon attack while you're not resting would be a very valid playstyle (rather than the 'dismiss immediately after BP' of the current system); you'd wait until you're about to rest before dismissing. Since the summon would actually be attacking, AND since the current summoning skill has _some_ impact on their melee'ing, perhaps the current skill system is enough? (or only needing minor changes?)

Something like this is hard to test by us end-users, since we can't make our skill number drop to testing levels. Does a summon do half the melee damage (less accuracy, less damage per hit, or both) if summoning skill is half the current cap? If this is true: Does their melee ability continually increase as you level up, or is their melee'ing based on your current skill percentage of the cap? Who knows? =)

If a high-level summoner (who currently has low skill) wants to check their summon's melee damage output, THEN max out their skill, THEN test out the melee damage again: please feel free. I just doubt we'll find anyone able to do this, outside of a test server.

In summary: If the effect of skill is not significant enough, it should be changed. The tricky part is testing it, and then deciding on how much to change it, if needed.

**Malamasala** · 06-27-2004, 03:13 AM

I just want to point out that I think the purpose of mp-slip is that a summoner isn't meant to have it's summon out always. Removing the mp-slip would let you have the summon out until it dies. I think that the lifetime of a summon still need to be limited, or all summoners would run around with a summon out constantly, which would make beastmaster job worthless in comparison.

The sad part is that mp-slip + expensive abilities remove a lot of mp. Maybe if you looked at the whole thing differently and kept mp-slip, but made all abilities free, keeping the timer. This would give you quite a lot of mp to use on having a summon out, while still not letting it stay out forever.
Only problem is that we are back to where we started, with only *feeling* like a true summoner each minute.

I think that atleast I would be pretty happy with mp-slip + free abilities with a global 30 sec to 60 sec timer on abilities and the group buffs lasting atleast 2 or 3 times the timer.

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