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**Taskmage** · 11-30-2007, 04:06 AM

Re: Scholar subjob discussion

I think that just about covers it. /drk might not be entirely useless for stun and absorbs, and likewise pld for flash and auto refresh, but 90% of the time those three subs will probably be used in listed order. It's a little bit of a shame that scholar's version of Earthen Ward and Noctoshield come to the table as late as they do in levels, but we wouldn't want to steal smn's thunder entirely and we could stand to see more of those effects in play in general.

Some points of detail: scholar can AoE -na at an earlier level than whms, and can do it more than twice as freqently when they get the ability. Accession Raise is a much more resource efficient way to make a quick recovery after a wipe than Chainspell Raise, though it's too bad whm can't sub for Accession Raise 3. ^^

I wonder what effect Ebullience will have on DoT spells like Bio, Burn and -helix spells, since that seems to be sch's area of focus in terms of damage dealing.

**Karinya** · 11-30-2007, 04:10 AM

Re: Scholar subjob discussion

Doesn't Manifestation say it affects only enfeebling and elemental magics? You might have more luck with Accession + Warp since Accession works on enhancing (that is, if it isn't restricted to *white* enhancing).

Aside from Warpga (if it's possible at all), the benefits of SCH/BLM look rather meager compared to /WHM and /RDM. Drain and Aspir are not actually benefits to /BLM since SCH gets them natively. SCH/BLM (and BLM/SCH, an otherwise attractive prospect) would be very vulnerable without the protective self-buffs that they normally have from /WHM and /RDM, and I don't think the firepower benefits are going to be that big.

RDM is strongest in enfeebling and enhancing magic, which is exactly the types of magic that SCH natively lacks, so they fit together quite well (fast cast doesn't hurt either). And of course /WHM is still the best sub for keeping your party alive and in good condition in many situations, for any main job except WHM itself.

Accession + Reraise could be very useful in no-exp-loss situations like some missions, Besieged and Campaign. Otherwise, level 66+ parties might prefer to bring a RR2 item, or a WHM. (Although I can see some endgame LS using Accession + Reraise and just saying "you can get your exp somewhere else"... it's not hard for any job to get exp now, and having RR on everyone could really help for fights like Proto-Ultima or Odin.)

P.S. You don't mention Erasega and Dispelga specifically, but I think that both could be quite useful in the right situations. SCH/WHM and SCH/RDM only respectively.

**hongman** · 11-30-2007, 04:34 AM

Re: Scholar subjob discussion

Im curious to know about the implications of raising your skill.

So SCH has D rank enfeebling. Using the Dark Arts raises to B rank.

I presume this means, if you have capped enfeebling at D rank, it also puts you at cap for B rank? What if you havent capped it?

I doubt anyone would actually use Dart Arts to cast Dia though.

**ItazuraNhomango** · 11-30-2007, 05:16 AM

Re: Scholar subjob discussion

Don't the Arts give player without native skill B ranked, capped magic skills?

**Malacite** · 11-30-2007, 05:51 AM

Re: Scholar subjob discussion

Yes they do Ifrit, as TM pointed out in one of his posts.

Also, what about SCH/DRK or SCH/PLD ? >.>

Now granted this is extremely niche, but for the sake of playing around with spells like the Absorbs, Flash and especially Stun I'd like to see what could happen.

You're right in that SCH does feel like it's missing a lot as a main job, and I'd like to see it get some more unique spells rather than making it more RDM-like.

Also, I find it somewhat fails as a SJ despite SE intending it to be a very good one. It's four best abilities can not be used when subbed (Accession Rapture Manifestation and Ebullience) and I can understand SE's reasoning why (the job has to have something unique that can't be subbed) but I think SE really screwed us on this.

WHM BLM and RDM have a lot of powerful spells that would greatly benefit from these. Either SE did this deliberately to keep game balance in check (seriously doubt this), or they just couldn't come up with anything good (More likely. They said so themselves at fan fest SCH and DNC were very difficult to design)

I mean, COR can already give us Refreshga at no cost, so why not RDM/SCH? AoE Cure V or Reraise 3 could have been huge but no, we can't.

Or how about Rapture + Cure V o O (probably overkill but still) or Banish III or Holy...

Let's see what else did we get screwed on... Oh yeah, Manifestation + Bio III (okay not much of a loss there. Actually not being able to sub this isn't that big a deal) and then of course Ebullience is every BLM's wet dream

ES + Ebullience + AM II {Can I Have It?} {Death} {You can have this.}

**Taskmage** · 11-30-2007, 05:56 AM

Re: Scholar subjob discussion

I think it was Coinspinner's post that showed the effects of Arts when your skills are uncapped. They just set your skill equal to the B rank cap for your level, regardless of your natural skill level.

If the description on the wiki matches the in-game tooltip, Ebullience enhances the potency of your next black magic spell, no reference made to the school of magic it's from.

I would call sch a complete job. It's just different from other mage jobs in that instead of deriving its identity from signature key spells and supplementing that with a subjob, scholar supplements its subjob with its signature JAs. It could certainly stand to have its first 40 levels spiced up in some way, but I think as a whole it's designed pretty well. We'll see how that opinion holds up to play ...

**Karinya** · 11-30-2007, 03:26 PM

Re: Scholar subjob discussion

Originally posted by Malacite View Post

You're right in that SCH does feel like it's missing a lot as a main job, and I'd like to see it get some more unique spells rather than making it more RDM-like.

Well, it does, but not until later. We'll have to see if those are good enough to be worth bothering with.

Also, I find it somewhat fails as a SJ despite SE intending it to be a very good one. It's four best abilities can not be used when subbed (Accession Rapture Manifestation and Ebullience) and I can understand SE's reasoning why (the job has to have something unique that can't be subbed) but I think SE really screwed us on this.

Those aren't its four best abilities. Those are its third, fourth, fifth and sixth best abilities. Its *best* abilities are the ones that give you guaranteed Conserve MP and Fast Cast and B skill if you didn't have it already, *for as long as you want, for free*. If you want to improve spells you already have, rather than expand your spell list by subbing a different mage job, SCH is an awesome sub.

It's true that /SCH doesn't get some of the best stratagems. But the Arts are in full force for /SCH (including for jobs that don't have those skills *at all* natively, like WHMs and SMNs casting Aspir for useful amounts) and do a lot to enhance the spells that the main job has.

WHM BLM and RDM have a lot of powerful spells that would greatly benefit from these.

Yeah, too greatly. SCH needs to have some of their awesomeness reserved for SCH main. Unlike the basic mage jobs, SCH is defined partly by its spells and partly by its JAs; so it's appropriate that not all the JAs are available to /SCH. Otherwise SCH would be in the same position compared with mage/SCH as pre-Assassin THFs were compared with 2h/THFs: all their good stuff is used better by another job.

Look at what you *do* get, rather than at what you don't get, and you'll see that /SCH has quite significant benefits for at least WHM, BLM, RDM, SMN, PLD, DRK, and BLU. Whether it's more than they would have gotten for other subs... isn't always going to be obvious or the same in all situations, which is as it should be.

**Galaxia** · 11-30-2007, 05:25 PM

Re: Scholar subjob discussion

At the momoment on Garuda ppl are using /whm and /blm, Only seen 2-3 /rdm.
But on almost all the comments theres
Sub Job: /WHM /BLM

Theres already a lv 50 SCH on Garuda and he says not to use /rdm

**Omgwtfbbqkitten** · 11-30-2007, 06:41 PM

Re: Scholar subjob discussion

Yeah, I was kinda glad with this recent update to jobs and the addition of SCH that many jobs got ablities as exclusives. I was hopful at least some of the weather magic would show up pre-sub for /SCH, but then every BLM would just sub that to capitalize on what would basically be free Sea Obis.

I feel the spell list's holes are very intentional to press the issue of other mage subs. And to be fair, /SCH does bring some things to the table that other subs other jobs wouldn't such as Regen II and a stronger Aspir. That could mean a great deal to my BST and I've halted my plans to level BST to get SCH done as a sub and possibly further.

I think /RDM does have potential as well, its just lacking in JAs. Not that WHM or BLM have load of them, but Divine and Elemental Seal do add a little something. But AoE Phalnax or Stoneskin at times is something to think about.

I'm curious to hear any feed back on /BLU, /NIN and /BRD as well, though I get the sense SCH is restricted to White and Black Magic

**Malacite** · 11-30-2007, 07:06 PM

Re: Scholar subjob discussion

BBQ's right (and it's what I like about SCH) in that it's like a RDM, but more defined by it's SJ and abilities and not just the spells it has. I'm also all for the exclusives (SCH would suck if it didn't have any) but I still can't help but wonder at just what WHM BLM and RDM could all do with those last 4 stratagems =/

**Sabaron** · 11-30-2007, 07:50 PM

Re: Scholar subjob discussion

I have to admit, /RDM is currently my top favorite. I mean look at what you get:

Full course Debuffs both Black and White
DoTs

Phalanxga
Bar-ra with Accession if you really need it.

Enspellga

I've marked my favorites. SCH tops out at 256 with LA on which is especially lovely here with Enspellga providing +17 damage. 17... I mean come on. Who wouldn't want their weapon damage code to go up by 17? Even a slow weapon guy wants that--and I think NIN's will be licking boots to get it. SCH can even modify the weather to boost the bonus especially on DDs who are WS'ing with a particular elemental affinity or who have one of those ever-so-nifty Weather related items like Monsoon Tekko. Hard to beat, and on the other side of the coin we've got -25 Damage (max) Phalanxga which especially coupled with Stoneskinga (maxed at 350) will provide horrendous mitigation capabilities especially with Paladin tanks in combination with their already formidable mitigation JA's--and Ninjas with RDM-style Stoneskin backup for shadow-recast? Forget about it. /RDM is Gold.

If /RDM is gold, then /WHM is Silver, but only because there is a greater shortage of healers seeking than DDs. Face it, Scholar may make an excellent nuker, and may even be able to manaburn, but you know that people are going to snatch you up to heal them more often than manaburn or DD scenarios are going to come along. It's simply a fact of life. In those camps where you just can't avoid status-casting mobs, /WHM will still be the pick of the litter, and best of all, you get to keep Stoneskinga!

Poor /BLM is going to have to get my bronze medal only because it will be the least popular of the main three due to aforementioned reasons. Ultra-potent nukes sound mighty fine to me: Ebullience + Elemental Seal + Thunder III = fun. Top it off with a full round of DoT and a Helix will make a very nice pop in the DD department. I don't think Scholar will take the prize away from BLM of course since they can't drop tier IV, and AM2, but they're definitely respectable especially in the DoT department on longer battles (NMs).

I'm currently SCH/BLU at very low level because /BLU provides healing and damage efficiently. It will peter out, of course, as I approach 20.

Oh and as a sidelight, I'm no longer considering Phalanx II as a viable merit on RDM because of SCH/RDM's Phalanxga.

If you need more convincing on the Enspellga thing, try thinking MNK x 4 all wearing Monsoon Tekko, Enwaterga + Rainstormga. Here we go:

Martial Arts VI: Base delay = 300
Weapon is Unlocked Destoyers of course +18/+48
Total delay is 348 without haste gear.
So we've got 17 x 2 / 348 * 60 * 1.1 (Weather) = 6.45 DPS per monk without the tekko.

The tekko are Acc+8 during rain, and as we have recently been informed, every 2 points of Acc are worth roughly 1% increased hit rate, so we can effectively say that (provided non-capped Accuracy) that provides an additional 4% over w/e the normal DPS would be.

Remember, we've also got 4 MNKs so... 6.45 * 4 = 25.8 DPS from just that little combination. I'd say that enspellga definitely has potential considering even Relic weapons don't break 15 DPS. If you like it better as flat damage, we're applying this damage over what 2:30? 6.45 DPS * 150 sec = 967.5 damage per monk per cast which means the monks in that party just did about 3870 damage and spent 36 mp (Enwaterga) + 90 mp (Rainstormga) = 126mp for 3870 damage or 30.7 hp/mp which is an extraordinary ratio. Now think THF and NIN and WAR/NIN.

Does this sound a bit broken? I think it does. I wouldn't necessary rule out a retool.

**Malacite** · 11-30-2007, 08:38 PM

Re: Scholar subjob discussion

Keep in mind that even with charges stored up there's still a 1 minute delay between Stratagems, so depending on the duration of the buffs it's not quite that good but still hot damn!

**Sabaron** · 11-30-2007, 09:13 PM

Re: Scholar subjob discussion

Originally posted by Malacite View Post

Keep in mind that even with charges stored up there's still a 1 minute delay between Stratagems, so depending on the duration of the buffs it's not quite that good but still hot damn!

You get one stratagem every 240s (I was originally thinking 1/minute) and the buffs all last 150s.

Of course, now I'd have to alter my strategy to disclude the rather dismal +10% from the Rainstormga, so

17 x 2 / 348 * 60 = 5.86 DPS for 150/240s = 3.66 DPS (adjusted for JA recast) * 4 MNKs = 14.64 which is much more reasonable but still quite high on the DoT totem pole with 4 high-speed DD's.

This mode of scholar seems to reinforce the TP Burn idea.

---- Above Heavily edited due to temporary personal overindulgence in stupidity ----
Sorry, got a bit ahead of myself. You get 1 charge every 4 minutes and store up to 3 not 4. Above altered.

**Icemage** · 11-30-2007, 10:50 PM

Re: Scholar subjob discussion

Re: Sabaron an AoE buffs
Have to remember that the recast timer on Strategems is 240 minutes, and buffs like Phalanx and Enspells only last 150 seconds. Also, I don't know what the high-end Strategems will be like - seems prudent to not base your higher level strategies around the low level stuff since I'm sure Square-Enix has saved the best for last.

Fixed the entry on /BLM to remove Aspir and Drain since I had forgotten that these spells were native to the Scholar job.

Icemage

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