SAMs worthless anyway you slice it?

[IpwnzuLoL!!!111]

Alright... I've been giving this some careful thought, and I'm seriously starting to doubt the usefulness of the Samurai class. Some people say that Samurais are a damage dealing class, to which other players argue that Samurais' purpose is to initiate skillchains and allow magic bursts.

Well, since Samurai are obviously not superior damage dealers (mostly post-60), one would be inclined to side with those that say that we execute skillchains so-on and so-forth, magic bursts yada yada yada...

Upon reflection I was thinking, "Wait a minute, Black Mages sure as heck don't need any help from a Samurai to do damage..."
No intelligent BLM spams their spells as quickly as they can in a party unless they're absolutely desperate.

So for example, if a BLM does, I dunno, 500 damage casting Fira, once, then yeah, it could do maybe 1500 damage on a magic burst (lets just say).

Then why wouldn't the mage just cast the spell three times?

It saves MP, but SAM's purpose is obviously not to conserve MP for BLM (in which case BRD or RDM would do much better).

I don't know how MB's work with hate... Supposing 500 damage equals 500 hate, would 1500 damage from an MB equal 1500 hate on the mage? If that's not the case, then maybe we could allow BLM's to do lots of damage without accumulating too much hate.

Otherwise the only purpose we seem to serve is to allow a big finishing hit (and to boost the BLM's ego), which is not terrible I guess. It just seems to me that you could make better use of the PT slot.

Well, if anyone could add some perspective to this, by all means do...

[Tidane]

I've only played a Samurai up to 15, but I don't think there is anything wrong with it. People often talk about the lack of abilities and etc, but they do do damage. Using their weapons skills enables the group to kill the mobs faster, thus increasing XP intake. If there is a Samurai in my level range looking for a party, I'll invite him. That may be different for others, since I'm a Dark Knight, and I'd like to have more variety in a party, I guess.

[DrSerpico]

Not useless, useful.

Don't rack down.

Sam's role in pt's is the versatility, from sams WS you can link almost any renkei. Aside from being a damage dealer, although not super dama as the bread-and-butter combos of drg/sam and drk/sam, they are somewhat of the rdm's of melee.

And about MB, the purpose is in higher lvls (whereas the PLD or WAR can hold hate easily) to increase the killing speed by enabling multiple bursts. SAM can even self-renkei, wich goes towards being a mages best friend.

They can also do "emergency tanking" (a little help frim third eye)and be the wars voke buddy if things get hairy. (with /war-sub)

So to answer your somewhat negative post I'll have to say, they're not useless, they're very useful... They just don't have a set niche like allout dama, hate control or tanking. Their strength is in versatility, not "omglolipwnzall"-factor.

Thx in advance.

[Ipwnzuall!!!111]

Grrrr... had to create a new account...

Well, versatility is all well and good, but in the end all that really means is that we don't do anything for the party that someone else couldn't do better, or is that wrong?

Don't misunderstand, I'm not trying to be hard on the class-- I lubs it. I'm just trying to find some way in which they contribute to the group, besides throwing in a few extra renkei and whatnot. If that was all they did, then you could probably get another class to come in and fill that role.

Mostly I'm concerned with the MB... I understand that in that way, SAMs allow the group to deal much larger damage, but my question for you is this: Are you saying that at higher levels the tanks can hold hate so well that the mages can just spam their spells without fear of taking aggro? I find that hard to believe. Of course, if it were true, SAMs would be indispensable to a PT.

Any other thoughts on this?

[Klades]

There's more to SCs than the MBursts. Chained WSes do more damage, and the damage caused by the SC effect itself can be very significant.
Barring resists, an SC effect will usually do half the damage of the triggering WS, sometimes more. Lv2 SCs seem to favor the higher end of the damage range more than the Lv1s.
And SAM is a lv2 SC monkey. Got a THF? Enpi->Sa+Ta+Viper. Probably 300-400 damage, plus 150-200+ Distortion. DRG? Jinpu->Penta. MNK? Kagero->Raging Fists. Penta made me feel a little less comfortable about my TP gaining abilities (72% TP gained from a no-miss, for crying out loud) but I hardly feel obsolete yet.

[Bloodberry]

/sigh, other boring posting about useless sam

[Nodachi]

Judging from the post i'd say you know a decent amount about the game. But without knowing whether you actually play let alone what level you could be i'm really not gona take your thoughts as credible. I'm not defending the samurai class because i am one myself. I'm sincere in saying i feel that samurai is the melee equivelant to brd for mages. They just make a PT overall-solid. They can manage hate well, tank when needed for small durations. As you stated, manage renkeis well. And as far as power i do actually hit harder than most melee i PT with. . .You can sit back and analyze stats and situations all you want but when it comes down to it it's basically how well the job and character is played in a PT situation with what it is given that really matters. (this doesn't excuse those who don't level subs and settle for mediocure equips and come back and say they play their job well tho lol.) I duno, this post didn't have any flow or anything i just put down random thoughts in the time i had but yeah, this is my stance on samurai's usefulness.

[Ipwnzuall!!!111]

First off, let me just say that I'm not here trying to say that SAMs are or are not "useless". Obviously having a good SAM in your party is going to be better than an open slot, or another character who just doesn't know how to play. I guess on the bottom line here, I'm talking about being "optimal".

So, bypassing MB for now, I'd like to get back to SC's. Granted, the damage from an SC is significant, but in general, is it substantial enough DOT to justify having a SAM in the party? For example, would there be any reason to choose a SAM in a high-level party when you could have a RNG? Which would contribute the most to the party's overall damage while still maintaing control of the hate?

I guess that in a sense this goes back to versatility... being versatile is nice, but in a party situation its not necessarily preferable over having one key strength. IMO SAMs are completely viable characters to play, but is seems to me that there will always be a "better" char to have in your party post 60.

Again, this is all "optimal." In reality, you can't always find the optimal player to fill a slot, so being versatile is especially nice. However, even being aware of this, I'm still curious as to how a SAM could fit into ANY party where they would be more beneficial than any other possible char.

[Ipwnzuall!!!111]

^Nodachi

Well, I'm really not so much trying to convey my own thoughts as I am trying to get other SAM's thoughts. I suppose most SAM's would try to defend the job... I'm really not attacking it. Rather, I'm trying to determine how a SAM could be part of an optimal party. In truth, I don't have enough experience to know for sure.

[TMPikachu]

Samurai are samurai, and wield the mighty super katana

unlike many other games, they're no better than any other non-japanese fighter class in FFXI. Warriors still have a purpose.

I found it a pleasant suprise that Square didn't make the samurai the eternal badass megafighter w/ the invincible hyper katana of pwnage.

People have that misconception built right into their heads of samurais being invincible super warriors. FFXI samurai are simply balanced.

Dragoon Jump
warriors are versatile (fitting as a great sub for everyone)
dark knights use black magic
monks are the masters of hth techniques.
and samurai are the masters of TP

[MAK]

Ive only got my sam to 30 but it seems they can deal decent damage at that lv there delay is lower then a scythe and can get just as much TP return as a scythe. Though i think there are much better with a blm in a PT. DMG wise at higher lvs, no they arnt that strong, ive been in PTs with rank10 sams that have those +20attack gloves, valks mask and lots of HQ sam things. Overall i did more dmg but he did make it easyer for the blm to MB. Its kinda unfiar to compete a drk to a sam anyway since they cant compete with darkness at all. Maybe if you had a gimp melee or clueless maybe then you will do more dmg then them but dont count on it if they know what there doing.

The PT i was in had a SAM and he used valks mask lv55 gloves the white suit that has acc+ the +20attack gloves 2 snippers and 2 attack+ earrings. He played kinda cool when he was about to meditate he changed to the AF helm then back to valks mask.

[Geo]

I came back to SAM, and I learned to play it. Its like a BRD, just as Nodachi said. I set up about 5 Renkei's in the group pending on creature, weapon, and TP. We were taking out ITs (and chaining them) with 5 group members. This is amazing. Ive even done a 5 Man renkei with 4 Melee.

[Wanderer]

Hmmm

Nodachi laid it out nice and neat for you. We Samurai make a solid PT. And if you really analyze it, Samurai can out damage other melee class. You're probably thinking damage per hit right? I'm talking about over-all damage in a fight. Samurai can use a weapon skill from 3-5 times a fight depending on difficulty. And a well properly equiped Samurai can not only do that, but also set up really nice Renkei chains. It's all at how you look at it really. A lot of people dislike Samurai because they think Samurai miss alot. A well equiped Samurai can hit more often than a Dragoon, Dark Knight, or even a THF (at particular levels; I think THFs are awesome so no offense intended). And if you're not well equiped then that flaw is yours really. Once again, refer to Nodachi's post. He's a well respected Samurai in this Forum. And thank you for not being another Samurai basher. If you would like, I am keeping track of my progress as a Samurai. I just post exciting turns of events that occur while I play my Samurai job. I believe Nodachi has done the same but I cannot find his post.

http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/sho...threadid=33295

Take care!

-Wanderer-
Lv.49 SAM
Siren Server

[Intensity]

Definitely good point on the BRD for melee jobs. Im, levelin my sam now, got to 20 the other day. Now, i do have to say that sams are somewhat gimped, least amount of job traits/abilities of anyu class by a long shot, but when you get to the point in the game where you're "Building" pt's rather than joining random ones, you see a sam as the job to balance your melee types. I sub war and voke in emergencies, and at the lower lvls (15-20) i actually didnt have much problem tanking. Sam is just the perfectly "balanced" melee job.

[Xarndelius]

Not a sami, but i do remember SE telling us in an announcement that high lvl demons will be added, and for the hgh lvl Sami's to be patience