The Decline of the RDM

[Icemage]

Re: The Decline of the RDM

Play RDM outside of just Merit/EXP parties. If you only play in one type of party, don't be surprised if you're invited to fill the same position.

I magic bursting when I could.

True. When I'm not using RDM for merits, I swap up my role, subjob, gear and macro configuration to suit whatever I'm doing, be it sneaking around in The Garden of Ru'Hmet, tackling a NM like Charybdis or Fafnir, or just helping someone farm for coffer keys in Beadeaux, and I get a lot of mileage out of that.

The flaw in the logic in this thread is that these additional roles can somehow be effectively migrated into an XP party setting.

My merit parties are usually configured along the BRD RDM <another bard/corsair> DD DD DD lines, completely obviating the need for another support, and instead allowing two pullers, and more effectiveness for all DDs. There is no way a meleeing RDM can do everything I do in the course of one of my merit parties. They won't have enough spell accuracy, they won't have enough cure potency, they won't have enough MP flow, they won't have access to status cures, and most importantly, they won't make near the same amount of XP that I do per unit time. And since the point of XP/merit parties is to make XP, the rest of the arguments fall completely by the wayside.

EDIT: I just noticed Glued's little comment about the "golden age of RDM" (lol). My response is that I've been playing this game for quite a bit longer than he has, and unlike some, I do remember what a disaster RDM used to be. I remember when Convert, Phalanx, and Refresh were new. Up until then, it was a chore to convince people to invite a red mage to a party. Just ask one of the JP version players, like Jei or StarvingArtist, what pariahs Red Mages used to be. "Golden Age"? Pshaw. Red Mages have it great these days.


Icemage

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: The Decline of the RDM

very few people realize RDM was once down at the level of something like PUP, though PUP isn't nearly as pond-scummy sounding as it was before last August and /DNC as a sub only helped improve things more for it.

[Callisto]

Re: The Decline of the RDM

I have to agree with Ice on this, I think RDM is at the top of its existance at the moment. Yeah, sometimes you need to main heal if you want fast XP, but grinding out levels is the most mundane part of the game anyways. It's not how you get to 75 and earn your merit points, it's what you do with them.

I'm in high demand for absolutely every event you can do, XP, Dynamis, Limbus, Sky, Sea, Salvage, Assault, you name it. I have a 75 BRD and COR which I almost never get to use, because my RDM is so useful to the people around me.

I never spend more than 10 minutes with my flag up, regardless of if I'm healing or not.

Outside of XP I'm never expected to main heal, I'm a refresher, an enfeebler, a party buffer, and at times a DD. Just the way I should be.

I earn more gil per hour than my 75 THF friends can from being able to solo Sky NMs, which no other job can do.

I earn and retain more XP than anyone else due to my near limitless abilities to get out of a jam that other jobs don't have.

With so many jobs that are semi-broken(THF), completely overlooked(PUP), and many times excluded(BLM), I can't say RDM is in any sort of decline when the largest complaint I can come up with about my job is not having Enlight or Endark.

[Sabaron]

Re: The Decline of the RDM

So you're still whining about having to backline eh, and continuing along the line of your pointless subjob combinations. Now tell us that people used RDM/BST circa 2003 to solo Very Toughs or that RDM/DRG is the latest in DD combinations.

Now as for the flamers out there ready to pounce on this i care less this is fact, this is our job, flame on and enjoy the way you play. As for the other people out there i hope this hits home, the death of the rdm is somber and we need to fix it.

I like the fact that you pre-referred to flame posts (as though you intended this thread to create such a situation), but my absolute favorite line of your post is the very first one...

"Many of you know me as a outspoken whackjob on these forums but i come to you tonight filled with the utmost sincerity. "

LOL...just...LOL... How presumptuous. Why would you refer to yourself as though you were some kind of high-tone forum note? Isn't that a bit egotistical? It sounds like the first line of a speech from a fake political figure...for some reason my brain is screaming "Queen Amidala", but I don't know why. Use of this type of language and credential dropping seems to indicate that you're trying to assume a position of experience and wisdom or attempting to create propaganda to manipulate a particular population (usually new people) into "sheeping" you.

----
To answer the question of why you were allowed to use such a plethora of sub-jobs in the early days:

Everyone was new. It hadn't been determined with any certainty that certain sub-jobs are better than others, generally speaking. Through use, testing, and analysis we know have a better understanding of the methods that work and those that don't. Therefore, subs like your RDM/PLD tank have been deprecated in favor of better alternatives like RDM/NIN, and the mechanics of /THF SATA are now known and are not particularly useful to RDM other than as a Treasure Hunter--RDM/THF is deprecated in favor of RDM/DRK or RDM/WAR which are much better for improving melee DoT. It's not a Decline, it's an Evolution.

As for Staff skill, I don't want it. Red Mage's traditional weapons are rapiers and similar light swords. Our selection of weapons is extraordinary already--the fact that a Red Mage actually has Archery skill is horrendous considering that Paladin doesn't get it. Seriously, look at our physical skill set:

Dagger (B)
Swords (B)
Club (D)
Archery (D)
Throwing (F)

Evasion (D)
Parrying (E)
Shields (F)

No other mage job gets two B class weapons. We get two B's AND two forms of ranged attacks to use against lesser mobs. We also get three native defensive skills and better armor than any mage other than BLU (which is virtually the same as us). How can you complain?

Red mage has never been a one trick pony. You've obviously been ignoring the soloist, small-group, alliance, and multi-alliance tactics that RDMs use to do insane things. You're generalizing the role based on our XP party role which is centered around maximizing sustainable healing in as small of a package as possible (i.e. just one Red Mage) which is one of our best features for XP. A WHM/SMN with sanction cannot produce the same sustained mp output as a RDM--in fact, no other mage can. That is why the XP role has been highly specialized. It's the "Energizer Bunny" role that is most useful in an XP party. I think you need to do some non-XP work--your character is new (even if you may have had one before). You haven't even seen half of what RDM does end game now. I will say, however, that some of your sub-job combinations just don't pass numbers and won't ever be popular. That you ever got to use them is merely due to lack of knowledge of their inferiority and not because the game has somehow changed to make them less useful. It's also not a "traditional values" thing or a bunch of "noobs with preconceived notions" trying to rain on your parade--it's numbers.

[Olorin401]

Re: The Decline of the RDM

I think the OP has a valid point, in that the many roles that RDM was originally able to fill have been narrowed over time specifically in the endgame.

However it's the same point that everyone else is trying to make. As the job has been defined with merits, other jobs that fit specific roles better, newly available subjobs and gear, and many people with many years of experience testing and tinkering with the job its roles have become more polished, but the original idea of RDM being the jack-of-all-trades is still there.

Enfeebling - If there's one thing a RDM can do all on its own, it's outshine everyone at enfeebling. I haven't seen too much about sub-SCH but I imagine it can only add to RDM's edge through Dark/Light Arts skill boosts, MP conservation, and access to Drain, Aspir & Regen 2.

Healer - In EXP/Merits it outshines even the properly-defined WHM, if only because of Refresh and Convert. As a WHM75 I've kinda come to terms with this.. Q_Q

Crowd Control - You can sub-DRK for Stun or BLM for Sleepga. Either way is good in an environment with lots of mobs. And both subs also give you access to Drain and Aspir.

Tanking - As Calli mentioned, RDM/NIN is a monster in HNM especially when geared and merited to its full potential. If you've seen one in action, you know what we're talking about. It's a helluva sight.

[Callisto]

Re: The Decline of the RDM

As for Staff skill, I don't want it. Red Mage's traditional weapons are rapiers and similar light swords. Our selection of weapons is extraordinary already--the fact that a Red Mage actually has Archery skill is horrendous considering that Paladin doesn't get it. Seriously, look at our physical skill set:

I would like Staff skill of at least a C simply so I don't have to cringe at having 72 Attack when I open up my Equipment menu.

Really the only other thing you could ask for is access to Vorpal Blade without a specific sub-job, and maybe higher Sword skill(BLU having an A- is a bit of a sore point for me, they aren't the ones called Fencers and Duelists after all), but w/e, nothing merits can't fix.

[Glued]

Re: The Decline of the RDM

perhaps my veiw of rdm is skewed since leveled with 5 other RL friends (each taking a original 6 job to 75). Maybe or maybe not i had a lucky ride. But the thing is i learned to fill in the role of the missing member and was able to do all the things most people couldnt, or say we can't. I know its possible and thats the only reason we were able to continue to XP at times. maybe my veiw on golden age is skewed because of this, however being a one trick pony until your 75 doesnt sound very golden to. why not, well considering our job is the most versatile in the game and changes dramatically to our sub choice, it makes me upset were reduced to being pigeonholed into a role best suited by WHM. WHM BRD COR and 3x DD > than having a rdm in the party, so it dosent sound to appealing to me when we rely on WHM's to not play anymore to get an invite. Maybe some of you that seem to be trouncing everything i said had the trouble of leveling and thats to bad congrats on making it through. To me the job is stale to what i once remember it being. The game balance itself with the /nin craze and TP burn has caused a rift in traditonal game balance. To have any hope for people who want to play RDM as a RDM they need to make traditional parties more favorable. Perhaps by altering the way curing is reflected by healing magic. Make it similar to how elemental works. Also perhaps utsusemi should be looked at altering the amount of shadows based on ninjitsu skill level. I dont know i remember pre TouA when parties usually consisted of RDM WHM BLM TANK DD, DD where PLD was used as tank over NIN. But we see now PLD's becoming increasingly scarce and the NIN/NIN takinging over. In tdays party situations MP kills xp an hour so why rely on any job with MP to fit in. BLM has already been cut, WHM is on the ropes, PLD's are over looked for blink tanks. Now with DNC RDM can be replaced and filled by a COR or BRD or both to increase speed of melee kills. So to say we are better off now is horse shit, we are no better than a WHM and might as well start to teach people the basics of being versatile. Sure 10k/hr is nice but sitting AHT URGHAN lfg is 0/hr and its only a matter of time before RDM is to join its backline friends. 2x haste from Brd Haste from DNC and AoE haste from blu (using diffusion) Eliminates us as a required TP burn member.


Think many RDM know how to build a good CoP party or even a traditional X/P group for ToUA zones. To say RDM is better off now than it was is reaching for a quick crutch, but but we get invites all the time. When we got convert refresh i had many invites just by putting it in my search con that i had them. How often is it in parties now you refresh outside of yourself? Again i say balls to the notion we are better off than we were. Our position in parties has een able to make or break them no RDM no thanks party disband. That is what i consider a great era, when the hopes of a party relied on a RDM, a life saving bind, kiting small areas, saving the whm's butt, collecting links, MBing, raise party while riding stoneskin phalanx to is max, a quick escape, then converting and doing it all again. To me that sounds like golden era, whats the story now, hey guys guess what. I just Cure tanked my way to 75 and dont have a good story to tell, except i dont have self respect anymore. Or hey guys you shoulda seen me, i just cast haste X nmber of times and only had had to refresh myself man im so badass. Give me a break you honestly expect me to beleive that RDM is well off please for the sake of sanity think about things a little harder. Our sole purpose of being invited is gone, what do we have to fall back on non existant traditional parties? maybe so MB parties. Unfourtunatley the time in th the sun for RDM in ToUA has expired thanks to DNC we arent needed as much as we think we are and consider yourselves lucky your still getting invites. because to me MP slows down XP/HR in burns so why invite RDM/WHM/BLM/SMN when DNC/COR/BRD can cure haste refresh the entire party with out needing to rest or ride a convert timer, thank your stars.

[Callisto]

Re: The Decline of the RDM

What you're failing to acknowledge is that XP is a miniscule part of this game. You can't base RDM's place in the game on how they are preferred in XP, or else BLM would just be eliminated from the game altogether. RDM is absolutely irreplaceable for its roles outside of XP. 1-75 XPing can barely be considered the same game as doing actual endgame events.

As far as XP, main healing is boring, but we're not talking about 10k/hr here all the time. RDM BRD COR DDx3 reaches upwards of 30k/hr, and the time you aren't spending grinding out merits and XP is time you can be spending actually doing other stuff, and honing your skills as a RDM there(there is nothing you can do in XP that will make you a better RDM compared to dealing with 7+ Dynamis mobs at a time, pulling in Limbus, debuffing in big fights, and tanking in HNM). And it's not like healer's the only role you can take in XP. Most of my party invites are to be a puller rather than a healer, and I'm usually requested to be /DRK.

Add: Just because SC+MB is dead in XP parties for the most part doesn't mean it goes unused. Leave the XP parties and step into a real fight, you'll see it's alive and well.
________________

Saying that RDM is better off now would be spot-on, because we can accomplish so much more than we used to. Did anyone believe monsters like Charybdis and Seiryu were soloable in '04? Hardly. Did anyone think that a RDM could tank major HNMs better than PLD or NIN back in the day? Not a chance.

[Mhurron]

Re: The Decline of the RDM

I would like Staff skill of at least a C simply so I don't have to cringe at having 72 Attack when I open up my Equipment menu.

Really, you'd think a Mage would have a Staff skill of something.

[Glued]

Re: The Decline of the RDM

Well its good to know we are still gods at 75 and we get our dignity back at least. 65 Levels being stuck as a pseudo WHM can be ver training on ones mind 5 levels to go till i never have to deal with being a cure bot i cant wait. I should have just reativated my old account then i wouldnt have this whole hatred towards the way we are forced to XP. I agree totally where is my enlight endark SE and hows about some teir 2 enspells. Also has anyone ever heard of an Enpell causing a burts? is it posible, i think that would be great if they could to add to our overall damage output. Aside from that i think im going to do some campaign and then fight maat maybe i will win today. Stupid git loves to asuran fist me, and if i get chainspell blinked one more time im going to cry.

[Icemage]

Re: The Decline of the RDM

and if i get chainspell blinked one more time im going to cry.

That's what Silence is for.


Icemage

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: The Decline of the RDM

I earn more gil per hour than my 75 THF friends can from being able to solo Sky NMs, which no other job can do.

OK, feet back on the ground please. Cuz most people aren't solo farming sky NMs to start with and your server has to have DEAD sky activity for that even to be possible on a "per hour" basis. Also, BST solos Despot, RDM gets technicality because there's nothing to charm in the palace

Second, RDM doesn't solo for EXP. Brag all you like, very few RDMs have the time or patience to do that. That's different from BST, BLM or PUP who are pretty much overlooked for EXP PTs despite any improvements. But when you have that time and are willing to invest, the rewards are large. Most BSTs I know are never short of beastmen/kindred and have some maxed crafts to boot.

Side Rant (really nothing to do with Callisto): RDMs love to brag about solo, but too often, they give RDM credit for what Avesta does. Guess what kids, Avesta has gear you can only dream of having. That's almost as much to do with how well as it does being a RDM, in fact, I'd say gear is much more to do with that.

So its not so much that RDM can solo something as Avesta can solo something as RDM.

[Dim Mahk]

Re: The Decline of the RDM

I havent play'd this game that long but RDM was my 1st job started and I really like playing it. Im at level 60 RDM and I really really hate being your Main healer/ refresher/ Haster/ debuffer/ last ray of hope. I get invites all the time when my flag isnt even on. And if I even grace the thought saying " OK, I'll party. Gather together where". the party turns out to be 4/6 MP users and no flipen WHM in sight. And they want to pull mobs like its the ultamate party there in. Meanwhile, Im at home with my fingers all twisted from cycling menu's and I think I have carpultunnle now. So I for one don't level RDM unless theres a WHM and/or BRD or COR at the least in the party.

If you want to know what it feels like to be used and abused. Lvl RDM to 60+ in the year 2008. I bet you tell me you feel like they rode you hard and put you away wet.

(+.+)

[Mhurron]

Re: The Decline of the RDM

Meanwhile, Im at home with my fingers all twisted from cycling menu's and I think I have carpultunnle now.

God created macros on the 6th day for a reason.

[Callisto]

Re: The Decline of the RDM

OK, feet back on the ground please. Cuz most people aren't solo farming sky NMs to start with and your server has to have DEAD sky activity for that even to be possible on a "per hour" basis. Also, BST solos Despot, RDM gets technicality because there's nothing to charm in the palace

I'm not saying most do, I'm saying that the potential for it to be done is there for RDM, and not for any other job. And I'm not sure what it is like on other servers, but at least 3 nights a week I could walk up and grab SC and/or Zip with little to no competition(if there is it's either a good RDM comrade of mine or one of 2 JPs that I run into up there on a frequent basis), and walk out with 400k worth of gems in 2 hours. Sky isn't exactly the new happening thing, and it has peak hours just like every other event, these mobs are only 4~ hour repops. Maybe that's only my server, but the farming potential is definitely there, it's paid for 6 HQ staves in the last month(roughly 2.4m).

Second, RDM doesn't solo for EXP. Brag all you like, very few RDMs have the time or patience to do that. That's different from BST, BLM or PUP who are pretty much overlooked for EXP PTs despite any improvements. But when you have that time and are willing to invest, the rewards are large. Most BSTs I know are never short of beastmen/kindred and have some maxed crafts to boot.

Of course not lol, soloing for RDM for XP is pointless when I can have a party in 5 minutes. I never would say to solo for XP unless you're doing something like farming Sea organs and don't want to split loot.

Side Rant (really nothing to do with Callisto): RDMs love to brag about solo, but too often, they give RDM credit for what Avesta does. Guess what kids, Avesta has gear you can only dream of having. That's almost as much to do with how well as it does being a RDM, in fact, I'd say gear is much more to do with that.

So its not so much that RDM can solo something as Avesta can solo something as RDM.

I agree with this for the most part, but just because he did it first doesn't mean he's the only one doing it. Belkin has also taken down anything in Sky that's soloable, Hongman and myself do SC and Zip frequently, and I know I could do Charybdis if his window happened ever when I'm not at work. Aside from the Seiryu example, and I guess Faust as well, you don't need the gear they have to pull this stuff off. I personally don't have any Salvage pieces, no Duelist's Chapeau or Crimson Mask, no Crimson Cuisses, no Dalmatica, and I deal with Elvaan INT and MP, and it doesn't hold me back very much. I just choose to optimize the potential that I'm capable of. So no, not everyone is out doing it, but if they wanted to they could be, instead of just bitching about how they don't want to main heal in XP.

My main point is that XP is only XP, it's not the game. Get out of XP parties and go experience some real content as a RDM, then after you do if you still feel that you weren't used properly come back and bitch then, but until you've completed expansions, fought Dynamis/Limbus bosses, Sky and Sea gods, and maybe a few HNMs as RDM, stfu about RDM being limited or in decline.