Red Mage's Support Job: Analysts' Introduction

[ItazuraNhomango]

This is a draft, far from finished, I suspect.

And, I'm unhappy with it

The guide seems to convey what I wanted, yet somehow wrong anyway. It's posted as is because I'm at a loss on how to fix it, being unable to see its faults clearly. =/

I would appreciate suggestions on revision--as in re-envision--this article.

* * *

Red Mage's Support Job: Analysts' Introduction


Support job, commonly called "subjob" (and should not be confused with "Support role job"), is the "secondary" job a player can equip after unlocking the ability to do so via the quests Elder Memories or The Old Lady.

This guide targets intermediate players with interest in understanding the logic and reasoning behind many advocated support jobs for Red Mage. The key words here are "logic" and "reasoning"; this is not a list of all possible support jobs and some simple minded rating of "Good", "Bad", and "So-so" for players to pick from.

Put it another way, this guide is not useful for people who dislike analyzing problems in order to determine the optimal solution.

The starting point is to understand Red Mage well, and to have sufficient knowledge of every other job in FFXI. (FFXIclopedia is a good website for no-nonsense basics of each job, by the way.) Without that base knowledge, it is not possible to hold an intelligent discourse on why a particular support job choice is better or worse than another in a given context.

This guide assumes the reader has that base knowledge.

For beginners, however, the author recommends White Mage as the one must-have support job; having WHM37 is sufficient to take any Red Mage player from Lv.1 to 75. Once the beginners have a good feel for what a Red Mage is, then come back and see if this guide can open new avenues of thoughts and possibilities.

Refrences:
- http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Support_job
- http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Elder_Memories
- http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/The_Old_Lady
- http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Red_Mage
- http://www.ausystem.org/~aushacho/gbox/ff/skill.html (JP)


Enhance What is Able
A Red Mage has access to many skills: melee weapons, most defensive skills, archery, various magic, etc. Of all these, sadly, a Red Mage only excels at Enfeebling Magic (and arguably Enhancing Magic), and has passable Sword plus Dagger skills.

One school of thoughts in selecting support job is based on the idea of making better use of existing skills in order to accomplish tasks the Red Mage's native ability cannot quite do.

For example, /WAR, /PLD, /DRK, and /BLU gives a Red Mage access to stronger sword weapon skills. If a RDM is intending on doing something which stronger weapon skills or more skillchain options would be good, such as breaking latent effects on certain weapons, those may be good candidates to use for support jobs.

Following that logic, one should look at a list of RDM's native skills for inspirations:

Dagger (B):
Sword (B): /WAR /PLD /DRK /BLU (access to EX weapon skills)
Club (D): /WAR /PLD /DRK /SAM (access to EX weapon skills)
Archery (D): /RNG /COR (access to EX weapon skills)
Throwing (F):
Evasion (D): /THF (access to Evasion Bonus)
Shield (F): /PLD (access to Shield Mastery)
Parry (E):
Divine Magic (E): /WHM /PLD
Healing Magic (C-): /WHM (access to Curaga, Curaga II, Erase, status effect removal)
Enhancing Magic (B+): /BLM /WHM (Escape, access to varous party bar- spells)
Enfeebling Magic (A+):
Elemental Magic (C+): /BLM (access to -ga spells)
Dark Magic (E): /BLM, /DRK (access to Drain, Aspir, Absorb- spells)


This approach, though, cannot be relied upon by itself to determine support job. For example, /WHM helps a RDM healer tremendously from access to MP efficient Curaga, Protectra, and Shellra, as well as status removal spells and party bar- spells. However, relying on using a D level melee like Club and expect support job choice to substantially enhance a Red Mage's performance against a tough opponent is simply unrealistic, especially as one levels higher. The same goes for counting on /THF to raise evasion to major source of damage mitigation against high level monsters--a bad idea.

The main use of "Enhance What is Able" is to make sure one isn't looking over some possibility simply because the combination is uncommon.


Play to Strength
This builds on "Enhance What is Able", but focus in on what a Red Mage is good at. While building around D level melee skill like Club isn't usually a good idea, the B level skill of Sword is actually not too horrible, and better, yet, if one can enhance it further with more damaging weapon skills from support job option.

For example, if melee damage is really important because the target is strong against magical attacks, then /WAR not only offers EX weapon skills, but also job trait Attack bonus and job ability Berserk to further increase damage.

The counter to "Play to Strength" is that every job has weaknesses, as do every job combination. Deciding support job based on strength without regard for weakness can be problematic. For example, while RDM/WAR can do decent damage with sword thanks to EX weapon skills, Attack Bonus, and Berserk, if the task at hand calls for a Red Mage solo'ing a hard hitting monster, using Berserk full time is immediately out--in fact, straight melee'ing may have to be avoided entirely, depending on level and monster.

As with "Enhance What is Able", "Play to Strength" line of reasoning can only go so far in determining support job choices. The strength of "Play to Strength" is to direct one's attention of making a good thing better.


Shore up Weakness
This is the foil to "Play to Strength", by looking at what a Red Mage is weak at, and which weakness is relevant to the problem the Red Mage is attempting to solve.

For example, a Red Mage has some good options for stopping a monster from using extremely dangerous attacks--mainly, by keeping the monster at some distance, with some combination of Gravity, Bind, and Sleep, However, if a Red Mage must be close to the monster, or if there are other players which must be close, then those spells will not help.

This is where /DRK and /PLD comes in; /DRK offers Stun, and /PLD offers Flash. Stun nearly guarantees a chance to stop most dangerous attacks which have long enough startup time. Flash isn't as powerful, and can only help with physical attacks, but it's a lot better than nothing if the Red Mage doesn't have /DRK leveled to 37.

Of course, focusing exclusively on mitigating weaknesses will not necessarily lead to the best solution, or even a solution at all.

Imagine a RDM50 trying to find coffer in Castle Zvahl Baileys. The problem is that RDM50 can't survive many hits from the monsters, and they hover around every coffer pop location. Well, Utsusemi is the master of mitigating damage--why not go as RDM/NIN? Unfortunately, after Utsusemi: Ichi runs out, how should the RDM escape the monsters? Stoneskin and Phalanx will only hold off death for short time, which may not be long enough to activate a warp scroll.

RDM/NIN wasn't a solution, though it did cover the weakness of not being able to take hits, up to a point. The solution is obvious to most Red Mage players: RDM/BLM, and use Chainspell + Warp to escape right after opening the coffer. Instead of taking no damage for a few hits or less damage per hit, this solution greatly shortens the time the player would be exposed to powerful monster instead.

Simple application of "Shore up Weakness" will not always yield good combination.


Explore Orthogonality
This is where RDM support job search leaps from exhaustive to creative. The idea is to combine spell, ability, job traits from RDM and its support job to enable a higher level of performance or even an entirely different play style.

As an example, RDM has no native singing, wind instrument, or string instrument skills, making /BRD a seemingly unwieldily choice. Yet, in a mage heavy party, a Red Mage over Lv.49 can use RDM/BRD to add extra MP restoration to the party by using Ballad. With the extra MP, the other mages can perform better, and thus the RDM isn't hampered by a smaller MP pool and less efficient convert, since other mages can pickup the slack with their extra MP.

Along this line of thinking, pioneering players have came up with ideas such as using /NIN's Utsusemi to absorb ancient magic, /BLU for Cocoon's 50% defense up and MP efficient cure spells, etc.

It's not just high level play, either; at almost any level, RDM/BST can solo for exp chains much like a BST/RDM, except the Red Mage can enfeeble monster to make their pet-tank last longer to compensate for the inability to use pet food. RDM/PUP at low level can get nearly MP free Cure and Flash for solo'ing. RDM/WAR in Valkum Dune levels can tank by adding appropriate enfeebs such as Blind and Bind to the enmity routine along with Provoke and Cure, essentially functioning as a PLD with less defense but more MP and spell options for generating enmity.

The danger of all these outside-of-the-box thinking promoted by "Explore Orthogonality" is this: sometimes, the innovators falls in love with their ideas, and blind themselves to the merit of the more establish play styles and job combinations.

Witness the periodic promotion of RDM/NIN as damage dealer in merit parties on a certain site's Red Mage forum; the RDM/PLD debate(s) on its merits in exp parties, as well as how good it is for protecting friends from danger; etc. (Jumping over to BST side for a bit, you just may find people who insist BST/NIN can keep up with WAR/NIN before pet damage is added, a position which defies logic given the lack of native DD trait and ability on the part of BST.)

It's not that RDM/NIN is bad, or even that it's horrible for merit parties. It's just that a Red Mage can usually contribute more to a party using another support job, and in a role other than damage dealer. The same goes for RDM/PLD; under most reasonable scenarios, there is usually another support job which can do at least as well as /PLD.

Searching for new, different, and better way to do things is good; that is "Explore Orthogonality" in essence. Falling in love with one's own idea is bad, that is only a half step away from "blinding oneself to the truth".


Combining Efforts
There is no one right approach; sometimes, an intuitive leap like from "Exploring Orthogonality" will point the right combination in a blink of an eye. Other times, an exhaustive look at what's available like "Enhancing What is Able" will make sure the right solution doesn't slip through the crack. Either approach must be tempered by careful weighing of strength and weaknesses via both "Play to Strength" and "Shore up Weakness" analysis.

The one last caveat is the human angle: if the setup requires more skills from the player to use than the player can manage, or needs more gears and items than the person can afford, then it will not work.


Example: Solo'ing Bloody Coffin @ RDM64
The author of this guide barely managed to kill Bloody Coffiin as an unprepared RDM64/BLM32. The battle ended at 476 HP and 7 MP, with Refresh gone and Convert over a minute away--it was a tad too close for comfort.

What did the /BLM add? Would another support job made victory easier?

First, start with the monster: it's a Lv.50-52 crab, with abnormally high resistance to both physical and magical damage. It can casts various Red Mage spells, like Haste, Ice Spikes, Bio II, Diaga, Paralyze, etc. Toward the end, it also seemed to have build a good deal of resistance to Silence and Paralyze.

So, /BLM gave elemental enfeeb spells, Elemental Seal, Conserve MP, Aspir, Drain, and Warp; the -ga spells are not useful.
- Unfortunately, the Red Mage in question does not have very high Elemental Magic skill, so the elemental enfeeb spells would neither land nor last.
- Warp is good for a quick getaway in conjunction with Chainspell, but the goal here is to defeat the crab, not to escape from it.
- Elemental Seal is only once every 10 min; while it can help, no combination of ES + any other spell can make or break the deal. About the most useful thing from this is to Silence the crab for a good length of time
- Drain was resisted heavily, and was not a good "nuke", like elemental spells. This was tied to the underleveled Dark Magic skill, in part, but:
- Aspir did work ok of the time, but it's still only once a minute.
- Conserve MP must have helped some, though clearly not enough.

Since the author did defeat the crab, and no /BLM specific spell helped, a somewhat surprising assumption can be made: a better support job may not need to provide any useful spell.

Suppose, though, we look at a popular job with a very useful spell: /NIN and Utsusemi. Well, given Red Mage's D level evasion, there's no hope of lasting from Utsusemi: Ichi to Utsusemi: Ichi, even in full evasion setup. With long cast time and low Ninjutsu skill, recasting may be a problem when Stoneskin is down. Also, this would take away much from the precious MP pool, and lower the convert efficiency significantly.

However, /NIN does have other good points: Raiton to lower resistance against earth, Doton to lower resistance against Wind and Huton to lower resistance against Ice. Those would have made Paralyze, Silence, and Slow performed much better.

How about /WAR, /DRK, or other melee jobs for better melee offense? Warrior likely wouldn't have worked out since it only adds attack while gimping the MP pool, given the crab is high resistant to melee damage. Dark Knight has some possibilities thanks to a combination of Aspir and Attack Bonus, but it does mean smaller MP pool than /BLM.

Dragoon is intriguing, since it can be used with haste earring, and Jump would have added a free round every 1.5 minute. Given the high defense of Bloody Coffin, maybe faster strike is better than just piling on attack to increase damage per hit? Dragoon adds Attack Bonus and Accuracy Bonus as well, of course. For /SAM, the draw is Zanshin and Meditate, a combination of a lesser double attack and free TP. While shining blade was a lot better than regular melee + en-spell, Hasso wouldn't be useful with one-handed sword, and the three minute recast time of Meditate is too long.

What about /WHM? It certainly would have been nice to have Paralyna. Compared to BLM, its biggest shortcoming is the slightly smaller MP pool, and lacking even Conserve MP to improve MP flow. The better a RDM can silence the NM, the less attractive /WHM becomes--or, the better RDM's can get away with /BLM, while mere mortals may do better on /WHM.

Stepping back a bit, and looking at what was MOST wrong, it had to be the 7 MP--more MP would have been very useful. This could be addressed with more MP gear, or food/med such asjuice, hi-ether, mulsum, etc., but how would one do it via subjob?

Well, /BRD provides free MP refresh via Ballad, right? However, that also severely damage the convert efficiency like /NIN, and the smaller MP pool leaves less margin for error without Utsusemi to extend the life of Stoneskin.

The next option to consider: /SMN. Auto-refresh, and largest MP pool for safety and Convert efficiency. With the single exception of Aspir, /SMN is not missing much compared to /BLM (which this author used); Auto-refresh beats Conserve MP handily, after all.

Conclusion: For RDM64, using SMN32 as support job would have worked out the best for the author--if the author actually had /SMN ready. Failing that, /WHM may likely edge out /BLM, given the player's mediocre playing skills.


Last Word
Often, the solution is not the support job. The author of this guide has many unleveled skills: Sword, Dagger, Elemental Magic, Dark Magic, Parrying, Evasion, etc. He also did not bring optimized gears to the NM--the Bloody Coffin was accidentally popped while in exp gear, and no food was used.

If all the skills capped or near capped, better suited gear and macros were in place, the right food and a decent supply of medicines were in inventory--if all those things were in place the NM could have been handled more easily with /BLM or any other support job.

Never fall in love with an idea, not even an idea about how to figure out the best possible support job for a Red Mage--the situation itself determines the best solution and support job choice.

[Icemage]

Re: Red Mage's Support Job: Analysts' Introduction

NOTE: I fixed a few obvious typos but left the text alone. I'll explain why in a moment.

- It's too long-winded. I think a better presentation for this would be to present it as a logical model, talk briefly about the general strengths and weaknesses of Red Mages, and then dive into discussion about each potential subjob, it's offered abilities, and potential uses.

- Anecdotal evidence is useful in persuasive writing, but when talking in analytical terms, you're just second-guessing in the absence of tests.

- I personally think you came to an incorrect conclusion regarding a better subjob in that instance against Bloody Coffin. You give /SMN the nod purely for its max MP and Auto-Refresh traits, but if those are your criteria, /PLD would actually be a stronger candidate, since it gives you better sword weaponskills, still comes with Auto-Refresh, and comes with Defense Up traits and some Shield Mastery and Shield Bash for extra TP and a chance to stun, for the price of perhaps 50 max MP depending on your race. /WHM would also be a strong candidate, as it comes with the very handy Auto-Regen trait, which, in an extended battle, can counteract much of the damage you were taking from effects like Bio, on top of Paralyna and Divine Seal.


Icemage

[Raydeus]

Re: Red Mage's Support Job: Analysts' Introduction

Suppose, though, we look at a popular job with a very useful spell: /NIN and Utsusemi. Well, given Red Mage's D level evasion, there's no hope of lasting from Utsusemi: Ichi to Utsusemi: Ichi, even in full evasion setup. With long cast time and low Ninjutsu skill, recasting may be a problem when Stoneskin is down. Also, this would take away much from the precious MP pool, and lower the convert efficiency significantly.

However, /NIN does have other good points: Raiton to lower resistance against earth, Doton to lower resistance against Wind and Huton to lower resistance against Ice. Those would have made Paralyze, Silence, and Slow performed much better.

About this, in the first part you are discarding /NIN because of evasion and Stoneskin issues, it's not so, it's just that you lack experience with the spells so you don't know how to use them properly. Bloody is a crab, and the perfect example of the kind of mob where Utsusemi becomes the best thing to both mitigate damage and save mp.

Then you say /NIN has Ninjutsu debuffs, I'm curious if they would've landed at all with half level skill from NIN sub.


Another thing, going /NIN doesn't mean you can't use a shield to mitigate even more damage (if damage is that much of an issue), and also for tough crab battles a Dagger with Energy Drain would've made things way easier too.

It would've been a long DoT fight but with proper tactics it would've been an easy one where you could've ended the fight with full HP/MP.


And that's only talking about the /NIN part of the analysis.

[Jei]

Re: Red Mage's Support Job: Analysts' Introduction

Utsusemi is what boost Rdm up from "useful" into the "omgwtfrdmsologenbu" territory. It is powerful... it is very, really, powerful I ensure you ^^ Imagine a mob that hits you for 1k+.... Like Fenrir. How do you think we are able to solo it if not by the help of Utsusemi?

Even on weaker mobs, utsusemi is still very useful. Normally, how do you deal with monsters as Rdm? You buff yourself up, phalanx and stoneskin keep you from hard while haste and en beat down the mobs. And you cure when you got hit or re-stoneskin as needed. With Utsusemi, you will rarely have to recast your stoneskin or cure at all. You're spending shihei to stay out of harm instead of spending MP. And the harder the mobs hit, the more Utsusemi will safe you time and trouble managing your MP.

Recasting Utsusemi usually is not a problem if you learn to count shadows properly. I think that's something you will pick up if you main Ninja for a little while. The tricky part is that Ichi -will not- cast over Ni. So when you have your last Ni shadow and start casting Ichi, that's where you need a little strategy.

Last shadow from Ni....
you want to start casting Ichi a little bit before the mob's next swing.
Then the mob swings at you.... here's where you NEED to keep a close look at your chat log.
If the last shadows absorbs it, cool, Ichi will give you 3 more shadows no problem.
If the mob however miss you.... you will have to manually cancel that 1 left over shadow you have in order for Ichi to properly give you 3 more shadows.

Casting ichi on ichi is pretty simple... just cast your new Ichi when you're down to the last shadow. Casting Ni is... a no brainer. Just cast between the mob's swing. It's fast.

In cast of Rdm, it's even better because when you're out of shadows, you have your stoneskin there for you to help you cast your utsusemi and not have to worry about taking hits.

[Raydeus]

Re: Red Mage's Support Job: Analysts' Introduction

/poke Jei

That analysis the OP made was for a lvl 64/32 situation though, so no Ni. However what you say is true, specially since at least in my case I tank 3/4 of the fight with Ichi alone and save Ni for when both Stoneskin and Ichi are down.

But with a crab type of mob that never happens.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Red Mage's Support Job: Analysts' Introduction

I believe /NIN would not have been optimal for that NM as RDM64 because I wasn't evading well--Utsusemi: Ichi wouldn't have lasted long, especially when it slips through Haste on itself. It wasn't worth the lower MP pool, in my view.

Bind, Sleep, Gravity all landed well. In retrospect, perhaps I would have been much better off kiting it until it developed resistance.

I'll have to think on Icemage's suggestions; this unwieldy thing badly needs a rewrite, and his ideas are quite strong.

The main problem I have is that I do not want to list each possible support job. One, I haven't tried everything--most things I can talk about are second hand info and educated guesses. Two, in some ways, it goes against the very idea of an analytical approach to problem solving (or support selection).

Basically, I don't want is a list. People make lists all the time. That's great; they are useful. But, there are so many of them, it's rather pointless for me to make another list; it'll just be one more guide with largely duplicate information in other guides.

IMO, it's much more interesting (and useful) to understand the reasoning process which people used to conclude RDM/WHM is good in exp parties, than just to read in a list that it's good. It's not so much the reasonings themselves as the approach taken which is important to me.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Red Mage's Support Job: Analysts' Introduction

I can't help but feel that there was some spite aimed at my opinions.

Ignoring that, this was all in all a great guide, but the most important thing is that you need more from the Red Mage, and from you, than you need from your sub. Which is why I like Paladin; even though it doesn't offer all that much, Red Mage doesn't need all that much. It doesn't overpower the Red Mage itself, like Ninja does when subbed to ANYTHING. I feel that Paladin helps retain the jack-of-all-trades feel to the game, the skills, and overall, the roleplay.

You can support, but not as good as with a White Mage, Dark Knight, or Black Mage sub, which /WHM will be my first sub-job before 30 anyways.

You can tank/back-up tank, though /NIN and /WAR would obviously overshadow in this category . . . sort of.

You can DD with the EX weapon skills if you're a true-blue Paladin Sword-and-Shield, though Dark Knight and Blue Mage give the skills (EX included), more offensive abilities, spells to aid the offensive, the list goes on.

MP issues? Paladin has Auto Refresh and a tiny MP pool of its own, but Summoner has both, and then some, and Black Mage has more practical uses for that also big MP pool that you'll be occasionally Conserving.

/PLD can always be replaced to the situation, but looking at it that way, so can the Red Mage itself. In playing these games I sacrificing potency for grabbing a little bit of everything; it's just how I play, "Combining Efforts," and I never try to impose it upon anybody else. I also don't like others critisising me as much as I don't like myself critisising others, because I know exactly what I'm getting myself into when I get myself into it. This is because I spend so much time not only doing hard research for data, but chatting with such intelligent players such as yourselves!

Anyways, this is a great guide, and could be encouraging to newcomers eventually, and while more research is advised, it is true that knowledge is indeed your best weapon.

And MOST importantly: just do what you want.

[Raydeus]

Re: Red Mage's Support Job: Analysts' Introduction

I believe /NIN would not have been optimal for that NM as RDM64 because I wasn't evading well--Utsusemi: Ichi wouldn't have lasted long, especially when it slips through Haste on itself. It wasn't worth the lower MP pool, in my view.

Bind, Sleep, Gravity all landed well. In retrospect, perhaps I would have been much better off kiting it until it developed resistance.

Utsusemi would've saved overtime more MP than what you get from /BLM and conserve MP, however it all depends on playstyle and experience. From what I see you probably would've died had you tried fighting it as /NIN so according to your playstyle /BLM was much better.

That's the thing I like about RDM, you can try different strategies for a particular fight just by changing your sub, the important thing is that you survived and learned from it.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Red Mage's Support Job: Analysts' Introduction

NOTE: I fixed a few obvious typos but left the text alone.

Thank you. ^_^;

I would like to rewrite the guide substantially, so may have to override your effect (by making more typos) in the future. >_<;

* * *

I can't help but feel that there was some spite aimed at my opinions.

I think you're right; I was somewhat exasperated by those exchanges, and the lingering effects are evident in writing. I apologize for that, and will be more careful with the next revision.

* * *

Utsusemi would've saved overtime more MP than what you get from /BLM and conserve MP, however it all depends on playstyle and experience. From what I see you probably would've died had you tried fighting it as /NIN so according to your playstyle /BLM was much better.

- I personally think you came to an incorrect conclusion regarding a better subjob in that instance against Bloody Coffin. You give /SMN the nod purely for its max MP and Auto-Refresh traits, but if those are your criteria, /PLD would actually be a stronger candidate, since it gives you better sword weaponskills, still comes with Auto-Refresh, and comes with Defense Up traits and some Shield Mastery and Shield Bash for extra TP and a chance to stun, for the price of perhaps 50 max MP depending on your race.

Something I forgot to mention earlier: my NM example was in part meant to show how a list of support jobs may not be helpful. It's not possible for a list maker to anticipate all possibilities; each context is different.

It's obvious I did a poor job of showing that. My context is that of: no /SMN or /BLU available, low combat skills, and low magic skills (except for enfeebling and enhancing). That, places a lot of limits of which support jobs can work.

For /NIN, the problem isn't that Utsusemi: Ichi isn't helpful to RDM64, it's that my evasion was probably closer to the cap of THF42 than a RDM64 at the time. (It's higher now, thanks in part to the NM.) If I guess correctly, Red Mage, the job, is perfectly capable of taking advantage of Utsusemi: Ichi against Bloody Coffin, if Red Mage, the player, has evasion at a reasonable level.

For /PLD, the low shield skill on my RDM would have diminished Shield Mastery's usefulness as well, though not as badly as Utsusemi, since I have the artifact set and Master's Shield, as well as a PLD53's (well, uncapped) shield skill.

The defense bonus would have been helpful, though it's hard to tell by how much. Shield Bash won't stop Bio II, though possibly could have saved me from a few Paralyze or Ice Spikes if I was alert. Unfortunately, the NM can (and did) spam all those, and more.

In any case, my long winded writing was so awful, most reader probably thought my conclusion of "the right support job" is /SMN, when it was actually /WHM. >_<;

* * *

And MOST importantly: just do what you want.

The way I look at it, wanting the right thing is at least as important as doing what one wants.

[Raydeus]

Re: Red Mage's Support Job: Analysts' Introduction

For /NIN, the problem isn't that Utsusemi: Ichi isn't helpful to RDM64, it's that my evasion was probably closer to the cap of THF42 than a RDM64 at the time. (It's higher now, thanks in part to the NM.) If I guess correctly, Red Mage, the job, is perfectly capable of taking advantage of Utsusemi: Ichi against Bloody Coffin, if Red Mage, the player, has evasion at a reasonable level.

Just a quick note, Evasion has nothing to do with RDM/NIN because our evasion is so crappy, a RDM/NIN never ever expects their evasion to do anything besides saving a few hits a fight, even if you had capped evasion it wouldn't have made any difference.

RDM/NIN with Ichi alone isn't about Ichi + evasion, is about Ichi + Phalanx + Stoneskin + Spikes + etc. etc. and how you play with timers to minimize damage. Then Evasion, Parry and Shield (if you use it) will give you a tiny but welcomed bit of help, but that's all, nothing you can rely on.

[SharMarali]

Re: Red Mage's Support Job: Analysts' Introduction

Couple of things...

- It was suggested that /PLD may have been a better choice than /SMN due to its defensive JAs, better sword WSs, and still having autorefresh. However, since the author was a level 64 RDM, /PLD would not have had autorefresh. PLD autorefresh is at level 35, and thus, if a RDM under level 75 is specifically seeking autorefresh, /SMN is the only option.

- It has been my experience that autorefresh and conserve MP are very close to equal through the 50's and 60's. However, because the majority of the spells RDM casts regularly cost 50 MP or less, conserve MP may be less useful on the whole for RDM than it is for a WHM who is casting more MP-intensive spells like CureIV, CureV, CuregaIII, CuregaIV, RaiseIII, etc.

- With regards to the argument given in the original post concerning /WHM being useful for paralyna... If that is the only use that you felt /WHM would have offered in this particular battle, bear in mind that having a stack of remedies would have made up for that. Obviously you're not going to generally carry a stack of remedies with you whereever you go, and I know you weren't anticipating this battle. But my argument is that if you HAD been prepared and you HONESTLY felt that, for this specific fight, the only thing /WHM offered you was paralyna, the better choice may have been to buy some remedies.

- /WHM would also have offered you Divine Seal, which would have cured you to full or nearly full after your convert in a single spell, ultimately saving you the amount of MP you spent on subsequent cures.

- Ultimately, RDM support job usage is always situational. I choose to use /WHM the majority of the time because I feel that the -na spells (and erase) as well as the ability to use Divine Seal alongside convert are more beneficial to my PT members than the abilities that other support jobs offer. However, there are situations when other SJs have been useful for one reason or another. It doesn't mean I'd use them all the time, but it's nice to have the option TO use them, because RDMs really need to be flexible.

[Icemage]

Re: Red Mage's Support Job: Analysts' Introduction

It was suggested that /PLD may have been a better choice than /SMN due to its defensive JAs, better sword WSs, and still having autorefresh. However, since the author was a level 64 RDM, /PLD would not have had autorefresh. PLD autorefresh is at level 35, and thus, if a RDM under level 75 is specifically seeking autorefresh, /SMN is the only option.

I totally missed that (thought it was lower, actually), and apologize for brain fading. I should have double-checked against FFXIclopedia before posting that.

It has been my experience that autorefresh and conserve MP are very close to equal through the 50's and 60's. However, because the majority of the spells RDM casts regularly cost 50 MP or less, conserve MP may be less useful on the whole for RDM than it is for a WHM who is casting more MP-intensive spells like CureIV, CureV, CuregaIII, CuregaIV, RaiseIII, etc.

Conserve MP is a bit quirky. I don't really think it has anything to do with the cost of the each spell so much as the amount of MP you spend over time - the chance for it to kick in is the same regardless unless you've got Conserve MP+ gear equipped.

I used RDM/BLM for a number of levels, and just ended up not very impressed with Conserve MP. It isn't that it doesn't kick in - as you point it, it runs about on par with auto-refresh in overall effectiveness. But it's much more inconsistent. Sometimes it's amazing and saves you a ton... and other times you wonder if you even have the trait.

- With regards to the argument given in the original post concerning /WHM being useful for paralyna... If that is the only use that you felt /WHM would have offered in this particular battle, bear in mind that having a stack of remedies would have made up for that. Obviously you're not going to generally carry a stack of remedies with you whereever you go, and I know you weren't anticipating this battle. But my argument is that if you HAD been prepared and you HONESTLY felt that, for this specific fight, the only thing /WHM offered you was paralyna, the better choice may have been to buy some remedies.

- /WHM would also have offered you Divine Seal, which would have cured you to full or nearly full after your convert in a single spell, ultimately saving you the amount of MP you spent on subsequent cures.

Remedy isn't really a catch-all fix to the Paralysis problem, though it IS a valid, if expensive option. The problem mostly lies in that Paralyze effects can also impact item use - you can literally be Paralyzed while trying to use the Remedy to remove the effect, and Ice Spikes is notorious for having a strong Paralyze effect (it's generally agreed that it offers a better paralyze effect than Paralyze I for RDMs).

Ultimately, RDM support job usage is always situational. I choose to use /WHM the majority of the time because I feel that the -na spells (and erase) as well as the ability to use Divine Seal alongside convert are more beneficial to my PT members than the abilities that other support jobs offer. However, there are situations when other SJs have been useful for one reason or another. It doesn't mean I'd use them all the time, but it's nice to have the option TO use them, because RDMs really need to be flexible.

I agree. More so than just about any other job, RDM has the choice to use any sub because the RDM job in itself is so self-sufficient. You don't really need any of the subjob abilities to be functional as an RDM - so at that point it's just a matter of personal preference regarding which set of abilities you want to use for any given task.


Icemage

[SharMarali]

Re: Red Mage's Support Job: Analysts' Introduction

I totally missed that (thought it was lower, actually), and apologize for brain fading. I should have double-checked against FFXIclopedia before posting that.

BTW, I meant to say "...a RDM under level 70" not 75. Apparently I forgot how to do basic math. >_<;

Conserve MP is a bit quirky. I don't really think it has anything to do with the cost of the each spell so much as the amount of MP you spend over time - the chance for it to kick in is the same regardless unless you've got Conserve MP+ gear equipped.

What I was really getting at here wasn't that conserve MP would KICK IN more often using higher MP spells. The point I was trying, and obviously failing, to make was that if you get a conserve MP on a 40 MP spell, you're only going to save about 20 MP. Meanwhile, if you get a conserve MP on a spell that costs you 200 MP, you'll save significantly more, and so you're a lot more likely to notice the effect over time. Since RDMs rarely cast spells that cost more than 50 MP, the likelihood of the effect being noticed is slim, even if it's kicking in regularly.

Remedy isn't really a catch-all fix to the Paralysis problem, though it IS a valid, if expensive option. The problem mostly lies in that Paralyze effects can also impact item use - you can literally be Paralyzed while trying to use the Remedy to remove the effect, and Ice Spikes is notorious for having a strong Paralyze effect (it's generally agreed that it offers a better paralyze effect than Paralyze I for RDMs).

Yes, but you run into the exact same problem trying to cast paralyna on yourself. I have observed more than a few occassions in Dynamis where all the WHMs and /WHMs are casting paralyna on themselves repeatedly in vain, with the stupid status being removed only when another player who wasn't paralyzed casts on them.

To me, the only difference between using /WHM and trying to cure yourself with a spell and using /WHATEVER and trying to cure yourself with a remedy is the fact that the spell doesn't cost gil. Obviously for a situation where you're in a PT with others who are getting paralyzed, it would be far preferable for you to be able to cure THEM as well, but for solo situations, it seems to me that it's really 6 of one, half dozen of the other.

I feel that /WHM offers a lot more than just paralyna, but the OP seemed to feel that in this specific situation, that was the only valid reason for using /WHM. I have never fought this particular monster, so I can neither agree nor disagree with that assessment in this specific scenario. In my opinion though, if there is only ONE reason for choosing one SJ over another and that reason can be easily overcome with a nominal expenditure, another SJ will become a better choice.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Red Mage's Support Job: Analysts' Introduction

feel that /WHM offers a lot more than just paralyna, but the OP seemed to feel that in this specific situation, that was the only valid reason for using /WHM. I have never fought this particular monster, so I can neither agree nor disagree with that assessment in this specific scenario. In my opinion though, if there is only ONE reason for choosing one SJ over another and that reason can be easily overcome with a nominal expenditure, another SJ will become a better choice.

Paralyna is the only reason I mentioned, but don't worry; I am aware of Erase for Bio II and Divine Seal for Convert. (I go to exp parties mostly as RDM/WHM.) Auto-Regen would have been helpful, too.

Paralyze was the most dangerous part of facing that NM, though, and that's why I listed Paralyna as the second nicest thing to have next to more MP.

I've never actually used remedy before; is this something a RDM is expected to carry at higher levels like Echo Drops? FFXIAH shows it's about 45-47k per stack on Ifrit, which would quickly drain my meager savings if I make liberal use of this medicine... >_<;

[SharMarali]

Re: Red Mage's Support Job: Analysts' Introduction

No, don't worry, the only medicine you're ever *expected* to carry around all the time is echo drops. I usually carry a stack of echo drops and a few silent oils and prism powders with me everywhere I go "just in case."

Depending on the PT setup or what I'm doing, occassionally I'll bring a stack of mulsums or 2-3 hi ethers as well, and if I'm on SMN instead of RDM, I usually like to bring a couple of yagudo drinks too. I've found that if there's a RDM in my PT and they're not refreshing me, I usually only have to use ONE yagudo drink because it has the effect of embarassing the RDM in question without me having to even say a word, and they start refreshing me after that... keke.

But as far as remedies go, I've brought them to a couple of BCNMs and if I help somebody camp Ose I bring them along, and that's about it. They're the type of thing you only grab when you think there's a very good chance you might need them.