Tirred of normal XP with RDM, I want to try something new.

[neighbortaru]

Re: Tirred of normal XP with RDM, I want to try something new.

I'll just quote Icemage again.

If you're lucky it'll deal 8 damage, otherwise you're looking at 0-4 most of the time. This is not significant, in an XP party environment.

[Icemage]

Re: Tirred of normal XP with RDM, I want to try something new.

Note that I did say that around 8 damage was lucky. 4 is the standard, and less if you chose the wrong elements/wrong day/enemy has a Shell effect active. Even assuming 8 damage per hit in an XP party (which never happens), you're still looking at maybe 40 damage in a fight, assuming above-average accuracy. This is less damage than you'd deal just by casting Poison II at the start of a fight (and unlike Enspells, is NOT resistable damage if it sticks), which again begs the question of why you'd bother swinging a weapon in the first place

More to the point, casting Gravity on the mob will most likely produce at least a couple of extra hits for your DDs due to the 5% penalty to Evasion, which is more damage than an Enspell. You can't really use the argument that Gravity will increase your melee damage.

Consider that at the start of a fight you are casting (as RDM/DRK):

Absorb-MND
Slow
Paralyze
Blind
Dia II/Bio II
Gravity

The above will take approximately 20-25 seconds, time during which you aren't swinging at all. Average time per battle is most likely around 60-90 seconds in any reasonable party. This leaves you a theoretical attack time of at most around 40-70 seconds or so in an average party.

But wait, there's that pesky spell called Refresh. It has a 150 second duration, and you're casting it 3-4 times in a cycle in most XP parties, and burns up about 4 seconds per cast, so now we're looking at casting it on average about twice during the average fight, so there goes another 8 seconds, leaving you at 30-62 seconds to swing at a monster.

Consider that the average sword for RDM has a delay of approximately 240, and that 60 delay = 1 second, and you're looking at 1 swing per 4 seconds, which means you're getting 8-15 attempts to hit a monster if you don't have to cast anything else (dispel, cure, recasting paralyze/slow/gravity/dia/bio). From personal experience, it is typical for at least paralyze to wear off at least once per battle, sometimes twice, and at least one of the other aforementioned spells will fall off as well, and at least one effect will require Dispel, so I subtract 4 more swings from the calculation, which leaves us with 4-11 swings per fight.

That is "perfect world" conditions. Chances are one or more of your opening salvo spells will get resisted (remember, elemental staves are a no-no if you're going to melee and save TP), which will require them to be recast, and at least 1 backup cure will need to be cast so your melee time quickly dwindles even further. I'd say a good rule of thumb figure here is probably at least 3 spells will need to be cast on average between cures, failed enfeebles, magic bursts, or extra dispels in a single fight, so now we're down to 1-8 swings per fight, average.

1-8 swings. Is this worthwhile? For 5 extra equip macros, negligible extra damage, sacrificing the use of your elemental staves to conserve TP, and probably sacrificing your magic-enhancing foods in favor of attack/accuracy foods instead, not to mention the loss of potential utility spells and abilities.

I leave the decision in each player's hands, but it certainly doesn't seem like something I'd like to do on an ongoing basis.


Icemage

[Hyrist]

Re: Tirred of normal XP with RDM, I want to try something new.

To be honest I've heard the arguments before.

On the timer issue of spells and swinging. Thanks to the wonders of the system, your delay counter times down even during the fractions of time between spells. If the delay timer hits 0, during any of the moments between spells, equipment swapping, etc your caracter will automaticaly swing. During solo, its quite a blessing factor, as I'll layer spells while melee going off.

I've alredy done the pratical data on swings attempts and connections based off accuracy gear I have at this point. I averaged 4-8 swings during the fight, and a weapon skill every 2.5 to 3 fights. (more often if used in dagger tenique).

Note that this data is refrenced on rdm/blm in which shock gravity and frost were generally the INT reliant debuffs cast at the time.

Now here's the reason why melee becomes a factor in the stragity.

Near the end of the chain, IT++s generally get traded out for VTs to end out the chain. This improves both our accuracy magicaly and physically upon the target, but it also reduces the time frame we have to kill the target. (as its the end of the chain).

This is where the Ex Weapon Skills, and unused JA's come into play. Now while during the enitre time we were commiting questionable damage, suddenly your Red Mage just hit for 400-800 damage (Based on a level 62 Souleater/LastResort Vorpral Blade damage test) that dident exhist beforehand. This could open yet another skillchain that could be bursted upon by all offensive magic users. (including the rdm who has switched back to staff for added nuking) Shaving what could be 10-15 seconds off a time essential fight. Well worth sitting silly with a sword for a few minutes.

If I am cappible of commiting to a skillchain more frequently than that, then just as well, comitting more skillchains opens up an improved preformance window for all offensive mages to utalize. However, the bare minimum of the preformance is to have TP every five minutes to inflict the equivlant of a Nuke in damage, ontop of our normal nuking damage, with almost no MP cost, with the oppertunity to add it to a skillchain for addional beneifits.

Thinking generally I took the peformance I loose from one angle, and focused into a point of added preformance to be used at my decression.

And again all this needs to be refined and honed and properly tested. Your consierns are very valid, they consirn me as well, which is why I have been working on the straigty to intencely. I know what kind of pressure I am on here when I hear these arguments and beleive me when the time comes for a full testing, you'll get my best preformance, on video.

But there is alot to be done before I even get to that point Icemage. I appriceate bringing up the issues I am going to have to come to face, however the getting there right now is the biggest consirn.

[neighbortaru]

Re: Tirred of normal XP with RDM, I want to try something new.

On the timer issue of spells and swinging. Thanks to the wonders of the system, your delay counter times down even during the fractions of time between spells. If the delay timer hits 0, during any of the moments between spells, equipment swapping, etc your caracter will automaticaly swing. During solo, its quite a blessing factor, as I'll layer spells while melee going off.

I am not so convinced of this. I have never seen a swing of a weapon in the middle of a spell animation. Just before the spell animation starts, yes, but never in between (e.g. 40-50%).

[Icemage]

Re: Tirred of normal XP with RDM, I want to try something new.

I am not so convinced of this. I have never seen a swing of a weapon in the middle of a spell animation. Just before the spell animation starts, yes, but never in between (e.g. 40-50%).

Agreed. You can never initiate a melee attack mid-spell; ask any bard, they'll happily confirm this for you. The action timer resets any time you initiate any action, be it a /ja, /ra, or spell, and any "accumulated time" is lost. Ever wonder why you don't see good monks Boosting constantly in melee? This is why.


Icemage

[nanatsu]

Re: Tirred of normal XP with RDM, I want to try something new.

I am not so convinced of this. I have never seen a swing of a weapon in the middle of a spell animation. Just before the spell animation starts, yes, but never in between (e.g. 40-50%).

I can verify this and what Icemage is saying. I tend to solo and farm a lot and while you can get off a swing right as you're casting the spell, BEFORE the spell animation starts, you can never fire off a swing during the actual spell animation. Any spell or ja of any sorts resets your delay timer. If you use the logic that the time it takes to swing again seems to be about the same or doesn't seem to take longer, that's only because the time it takes for you to cast the spell is shorter than or similar enough to your delay. It's just your perception of what's going on, not the reality. If you try a spell with a long casting time...well then you'll see that you won't swing a second time until your spell animation is done.

To illustrate this further, as a ranger with no spells, I can't swing during a ranged attack animation. Doing a ranged attack completely resets my delay. I can fire off a shot right as I'm swinging however to manage things so that I don't lose a lot of time with delay reset.

[Hyrist]

Re: Tirred of normal XP with RDM, I want to try something new.

You misunderstood what I was saying. I am saying between spells, not during. The animation of the attack happens after the animation (and casting time) of the following spell happens. Same goes with ranged attacks. What ends up happening is quite simply, the graphics do not keep up with the actual goings on. This is verifyable with Dual Weild as well. The server regesters the attack, but the return graphic happens after the spell command is regestered.

What you get is the appearance of of your character swinging mid spell. What is happening is in that fration of a second between casting two spells your melee delay timer hit 0 resulting in another attack that sliped in JUST before the starting of the cast. I've timed this over and over again in both soloing and parties.

No, there is no way to swing a sword on 50% casting time, perhaps with Joyuse and Krakken Club, where the attack animations are lasting that long, but never in computer-calulated time.

What you quoted was just another example on how I can misphrase statments to be easially mistaken.

Edit: To further clarify what I mean. I am talking about the instances of time between 100% on one spell and 1% on the other. There is no wait time for the delay timer in this, the casting time on the spells IS the wait timer, unlike with weapon skills and ranged attacks where there is a slight downtime in which you cannot enter other commands. With me so far?

[Icemage]

Re: Tirred of normal XP with RDM, I want to try something new.

What you get is the appearance of of your character swinging mid spell. What is happening is in that fration of a second between casting two spells your melee delay timer hit 0 resulting in another attack that sliped in JUST before the starting of the cast. I've timed this over and over again in both soloing and parties.

Edit: To further clarify what I mean. I am talking about the instances of time between 100% on one spell and 1% on the other. There is no wait time for the delay timer in this, the casting time on the spells IS the wait timer, unlike with weapon skills and ranged attacks where there is a slight downtime in which you cannot enter other commands. With me so far?

Hmm.. I just tested this in game. You do get to keep the timer, but there's something else odd going on with the timing, because it looks like the spellcasting animation counts against the delay or something. It's hard to tell with latency involved, but I'm not getting as many attacks as I "should" be sliding spells in between attacks. Ditto for /jas.

/ranged does reset the attack timer, however. If I throw a boomerang or a pebble or anything I have to start all over with weapon delay.


Icemage

[Hyrist]

Re: Tirred of normal XP with RDM, I want to try something new.

/ranged does reset the attack timer, however. If I throw a boomerang or a pebble or anything I have to start all over with weapon delay.

I have to contest against that on the basis that its the ENTIRE stragity I use with my low level mules. Using low delay weapons and getting 2-3 ranged shots in between. It lenghtens the delay by an amount, but it does not reset the timer completly.

Heres a way to test, take a lvl 1 warrior out with a crossbow and a 2 handed weapon (Hand to hand works too) Immediatly after you land your first melee hit, start spamming ranged attacks, after your 3rd or 4th, you'll notice that your weapon will swing just slightly after, where as it should have gone off much later had the delay been reset.

My conclusion. Ranged attacks add their delay in first priority before weapon delay. So if you have a 150 delay dagger and a 150 delay bow. If you use b oth immediatly, it will be 300 before you swing your dagger again. However, if you keep fiering, eventually, because of human error, you eat down your melee delay back to 0, and swing again sooner. (but still after the ranged delay finishes).



Make any sence?

[Caspian]

Re: Tirred of normal XP with RDM, I want to try something new.

Just to clarify, you are talking about meleeing in xp parties ONLY when the mob has no detrimental aoe's correct? Which means you then have to find a party that is willing to only fight mobs that will allow you to melee and cast?
This would be difficult to actually test, but it seems ppl actually fight certain mobs for a reason: They are easier to kill which means greater xp/hr. Does killing non typical xp mobs while doing all your other stuff actually result in greater xp/hr than fighting easier mobs and only being a refresh whore/backup healer/dispeller etc.?
Also, does the dmg from en- spells give tp? i.e. if you hit the mob for 0 dmg but got dmg from the enspell, would you then get tp? I have heard that the mob would not in this case.

[Icemage]

Re: Tirred of normal XP with RDM, I want to try something new.

Enspell damage never gives TP by itself. 0 damage hits with enspells give 0 TP, regardless of how much damage the enspell does. My issue isn't with the TP generation so much as the futility of trying to hit an XP mob with an enspell active.

The reason why people pick specific enemy types to fight for XP is because they are the least problematical, and require the least amount of MP (the most critical resource in most XP partieS) to deal with. There's a reason why people like fighting things like Flamingos in Ru'aun Gardens; weak TP attacks, no status attacks, and they don't even link.


Icemage

[Caspian]

Re: Tirred of normal XP with RDM, I want to try something new.

The reason why people pick specific enemy types to fight for XP is because they are the least problematical, and require the least amount of MP (the most critical resource in most XP partieS) to deal with. There's a reason why people like fighting things like Flamingos in Ru'aun Gardens; weak TP attacks, no status attacks, and they don't even link.

Yeah, thats what I'm saying. A lot of ppl like fighting gobs, b/c despite the bombs they are pretty easy to kill, same goes for flies. If you have to pick a mob that has no good aoe's but is still harder to chain and xp off of, the meleeing rdm would have to do a LOT of dmg for it to be worth it. Same goes for crabs for that matter. What with shell and the -str aoe, you'll have to constantly be casting dispel just to keep from repeatedly hitting for 0. I dont know, I've never played rdm, but most of this just seems to be thinking about the pt as a whole in all instances. Not to mention not being able to use your staves is going to hurt the affectiveness of your enfeebles. Plus, w/o the exact same pt with the exact same gear at the exact same lvl on the exact same mobs, its going to be difficult to pull real stats on overall pt affectiveness in most if not all of these situations.

[Hyrist]

Re: Tirred of normal XP with RDM, I want to try something new.

Hmm.. I just tested this in game. You do get to keep the timer, but there's something else odd going on with the timing, because it looks like the spellcasting animation counts against the delay or something. It's hard to tell with latency involved, but I'm not getting as many attacks as I "should" be sliding spells in between attacks. Ditto for /jas.

This is what I call the "Graphic Delay". We notice this delay when we use chainspell and try to spam the same spell over and over again. It has to let the graphic run for a small amount of time before we are aloude to take another action.

Taking advantage of this delay can also help create a flawless 'casting stream' in which you can pretty much prevent yourself from actally landing a melee blow even when your engaged... I've gotten as far as six spells before my sword managed to slip a blow in. You should give it a try yourself while soloing, might learn a thing or two about your own spell delays.

[nanatsu]

Re: Tirred of normal XP with RDM, I want to try something new.

This is what I call the "Graphic Delay". We notice this delay when we use chainspell and try to spam the same spell over and over again. It has to let the graphic run for a small amount of time before we are aloude to take another action.

Taking advantage of this delay can also help create a flawless 'casting stream' in which you can pretty much prevent yourself from actally landing a melee blow even when your engaged... I've gotten as far as six spells before my sword managed to slip a blow in. You should give it a try yourself while soloing, might learn a thing or two about your own spell delays.

Now that I've noticed ever since I started mage jobs. The ability to continuously cast without landing a hit at all shouldn't be brand new knowledge to anyone who has seriously played a mage job.

My conclusion. Ranged attacks add their delay in first priority before weapon delay. So if you have a 150 delay dagger and a 150 delay bow. If you use both immediatly, it will be 300 before you swing your dagger again. However, if you keep fiering, eventually, because of human error, you eat down your melee delay back to 0, and swing again sooner. (but still after the ranged delay finishes).

I haven't noticed this in 50+ levels of rng, 25 levels of thf, 30 lvls of war and 24 level of ninja. But I'm willing to test it out and see for myself if what you say is true. I would tend to think it has something to do with your character's animations not being able to keep up than anything else.

[Hyrist]

Re: Tirred of normal XP with RDM, I want to try something new.

I haven't noticed this in 50+ levels of rng, 25 levels of thf, 30 lvls of war and 24 level of ninja. But I'm willing to test it out and see for myself if what you say is true. I would tend to think it has something to do with your character's animations not being able to keep up than anything else.

Its intresitng the little quirks you pick up when you've spent nearly 2 years farming as a means of making gil. Now admittiantly I havent played ranger, but I am 100% confident about this. However if you keep spamming arrows your not going to see it for quite a while, just like spellcasting can prevent meleeing alltogether for a while.

The problem I see with this stragity is quite simply, it burns through arrows/bolts and returning weapons arnt powerful enough to make up for a swing on the weapon. Well that and it murders your melee weapon skill ups. However it is really nice for getting TP during those infant levels.

Now that I've noticed ever since I started mage jobs. The ability to continuously cast without landing a hit at all shouldn't be brand new knowledge to anyone who has seriously played a mage job.

The Graphical Delay is .03~.6 to 2 on the wait timer, depending mostly if its a weapon skill or magic spell.

I've also been reminded of somthing leveling bard last night. During longer duration spells provided your weapon delay timer is close enough to 0 before you cast, you will swing after your spell 'comit' % (When your spell actually goes off) given time for the graphical delay. So on spells like refresh, enspell, nuking, etc. Your melee timer actually starts counting down again somwhere around 65-81%, depending on the speed of your spell.

o,o you know... my family might be right. I do play this game too much