Which Sub to lvl First?

[Gman]

Originally posted by Laehn
And having a whm doesnt completely negate using whm sub. It would sure help out if you could remove blind or other status effects on the entire party twice as fast with the help of /whm sub. And curagas save mp period, despite it not being in your job description. Theyre much better than just helping cure with a stray Cure III or Cure IV. Divine seal is a life saver too. Theres a reason why so many smns, blms, and brds so frequently sub whm.

Originally posted by Gman
Just to touch on what I said about WHM sub being not needed with WHM in PT... not ~completely~ true, as there are mobs that a pt can fight which keep a whm very busy with status cures, like bones, tigers, etc. Also mobs with AOE attacks that require curaga to be cast often. I've leveled WHM so I can be flexible, so when I do get that oddball request to sub WHM, I can. *(I still need erase though )

This was not an edit. It was in my original post. I think I mentioned why I think WHM as sub could be beneficial.

Depending on the mob, using a BLM sub can be far superior to /WHM. I would challenge you to find one person that thinks RDM/WHM is better than RDM/BLM for crabs or beetles. Dont say erase either... rdm has enough to do already without having to worry about doing the whm's job with erase.

As for why SMN, BRD, BLM sub whm its because all other subs for those main are completely gimp. BLM and SMN are not welcome in any party of mine if they cant heal. I'm not expecting them to do the healing, but backup in emergency is nice. I think BRD could get in a party subbing pretty much anything... sad but true.

[Laehn]

I didnt say rdm/whm was better than rdm/blm in every situation. Just dont want to discourage anyone from having whm and using it as a sub occasionally. Hes talking about early in the game anyways. A lot of the benefits that come with blm dont arrive till later on. You get lots of use from whm fairly early on with -na spells and curaga.

Theres far more to whm than just cures. Whm has a lot of spells that can in the long run save mp. The half a dozen status cures, divine seal, curagas can all be used even if a whm is in the party and they can save the party lots of downtime and mp.

If you can find time to aspir a crap/beetle, then you have time to cast erase occasionally.

Ask any brd, brds are extremely weak at low lvls. Subbing it only worsens the situation. None of our songs are powerful when we first get them, even madrigal. /brd inability to use instruments and have access to other half of our skills only makes low lvl songs that much worse. The only song that wont be affected is Paeon, and Paeon I's power is laughable, even at such a low lvl.

[Kilgraw]

Originally posted by Laehn
For gods sake, dont sub brd at such a low lvl. Brds are already gimped at low lvls, subbing it onto another low job thats underpowered only makes it that much worse.

As Icemage said, try it before you knock it. /Brd is a viable sub job for many jobs at low levels (as an example, I preferred Thf/Brd over Thf/War pre 24). The difference between having madrigal or minuet and not is noticable.

[Laehn]

Uh, i am a brd, ive tried it many many times on many different jobs. And it didnt change my mind.

[Mephisto]

Originally posted by Laehn
Uh, i am a brd, ive tried it many many times on many different jobs. And it didnt change my mind.

"I'm a bard so I know everything about RDM subjobs." :confused:

[kazuri]

I didn't level RDM with BRD sub, but when I leveled THF to 17, I had BRD sub. Those precious HP+1 per seconds helped a lot, much more then the little power boost I would've gotten with /WAR. ;o
Hi Laehn btw, I was the lame BLM skilling dagger during Boyahda EXP PT. o-o

[Laehn]

Originally posted by Mephisto
"I'm a bard so I know everything about RDM subjobs." :confused:

Uh, its not hard to get rdm/brd when you have a brd thats above lvl 15. We're talking beginning of the game. Ive played both rdm and brd through valkurm already.

[Gman]

Originally posted by Laehn


If you can find time to aspir a crap/beetle, then you have time to cast erase occasionally.

No I dont. I have BETTER things to do with my time and MP than cast erase, or any other WHM only spell (if there is a whm present to do it) Drain and Aspir are there to reduce my downtime. They are incredibly useful, and its not like I cast them for fun, I cast them because they give MP/HP, which means less sitting, and less downtime.

Just wondering, have you played RDM to high level, in a group with 4-5 people to refresh? Refresh casting time with AF is about 3-4 seconds. Cooldown time is about 17 seconds. Assuming WHM, RDM, BLM and PLD to refresh, and occasionally DRK, thats 1 min, 20 sec either casting, or waiting for refresh cooldown. During that 1 min 20 secs I cant sit to heal. Factor in all the other spells I have to cast, or maybe recast because of resists (Slow, Para, Silence, Gravity, Dispel, etc) and I dont have much sitting time until the 3 mins from the first refresh wears off and I have to begin the cycle all over again. But sure, I "have time" to cast erase every fight to save our stressed out WHM (who by the way has 75% mp at the end of every fight because of yours truly) some time and effort.

ugh...

[Icemage]

FYI, Laehn, Sword Madrigal is +15 Accuracy, +16 with a Traversiere, +17 with a Traversiere+1.

This is true whether you're level 12 or level 75. I found Madrigal to be enormously useful in the mid-20s - it's like handing 3 Sniper's Rings to every melee in the party.


Icemage

[Gman]

I'm curious, how does Sword Madrigal compare to Blade Madgrigal?

Can they stack?

[Icemage]

They can stack. I don't know the particulars on Blade Madrigal, but it does add more ACC than Sword Madrigal does. Generally speaking though, if your melees need that extra 30+ ACC to hit things, you need to find new melees, not sing them accuracy songs. :p


Icemage

[Gman]

Originally posted by Icemage
They can stack. I don't know the particulars on Blade Madrigal, but it does add more ACC than Sword Madrigal does. Generally speaking though, if your melees need that extra 30+ ACC to hit things, you need to find new melees, not sing them accuracy songs. :p


Icemage

Thanks...

I guess thats probably the reason you dont see bards singing both ^^

[Discordian]

Originally posted by Gman
No I dont. I have BETTER things to do with my time and MP than cast erase, or any other WHM only spell (if there is a whm present to do it) Drain and Aspir are there to reduce my downtime. They are incredibly useful, and its not like I cast them for fun, I cast them because they give MP/HP, which means less sitting, and less downtime.

Just wondering, have you played RDM to high level, in a group with 4-5 people to refresh? Refresh casting time with AF is about 3-4 seconds. Cooldown time is about 17 seconds. Assuming WHM, RDM, BLM and PLD to refresh, and occasionally DRK, thats 1 min, 20 sec either casting, or waiting for refresh cooldown. During that 1 min 20 secs I cant sit to heal. Factor in all the other spells I have to cast, or maybe recast because of resists (Slow, Para, Silence, Gravity, Dispel, etc) and I dont have much sitting time until the 3 mins from the first refresh wears off and I have to begin the cycle all over again. But sure, I "have time" to cast erase every fight to save our stressed out WHM (who by the way has 75% mp at the end of every fight because of yours truly) some time and effort.

ugh...

For a long while I've spent more MP per fight than a whm due to the wonders of Cure5 and Paladins knowing their gear andhate equips. Convert is my emergency button or in Dynamis my instant battery to keep going. For main healer I won't sub whm because I have too much to do and Converve MP works too well with the large MP pool that I'm wasting to keep my most useful spells up, I'll leave erase and status cures to a bard.

[WishMaster3K]

Originally posted by Discordian
For main healer I won't sub whm because I have too much to do and Converve MP works too well with the large MP pool that I'm wasting to keep my most useful spells up, I'll leave erase and status cures to a bard.

Fully agreed, and well said, btw. I've a ctually seen Conserve MP benefits even at my low level (47 atm) and I agree, when you have to refresh 5 ppl, you really have a love for it those times it kicks in. I, as a RDM/BLM, have to refresh at least 2 ppl in a pt (thats a given, average is usually 3-4) and cast full set of enfeebles.

Furthermore, I have to set up macro's and playing style according to the tank and the order of jobs that I refresh (Me, always first, then PLD, if no PLD, WHM, then BLM, then BRD -.- then DRK).

We cure just fine with our available spells, although I can't argue that a Curaga and the extra MND wouldnt be welcome. And yeah, WHM can actually do pretty fine taking away debuffs. Just give them Ballad and Refresh and you'll never hear them complain.