Haste Question

[Digital]

I just got haste, and I'm really confused on the best way to use it. Should I use it on all melees? Just the renkei partcipants? Renkei particiapnts and tank? Should I haste myself for faster casting times? It seems like hasting all the melees would just drain MP really quickly (3 melees = 120 on haste, 3 mages and PLD = 160 on refresh...thats 280 mp already) without consideration for other things like Dia II (the biggest MP drainer), other enfeebles, a Cure III every now and then, and MB. 430~ mp just doesn't last long with all of that.

[Apple Pie]

I always cast it on NIN or PLD tank because it helps reduce recasting time of Utsusemi or Flash.

When we fight with Crawlers, I cooperate with WHM and provide all frontliners with it since it prevent them from getting slow effect from Crawlers.

[Alcueid]

If your tank is a ninja he absolutely must have haste at all times to reduce utusemi recast times.

But as you said Haste drains MP very quickly, and its effect is 12% reduction in delay and recast times for 3 minutes(?). So it is not a very MP efficient spell. If you just got haste, you should not be casting it on all of your melees. After level 60 or so when you have a lot of mp you can cast it on all of your melees, but I would suggest just casting it on your ninja and whoever is building up TP slowly relative to the others.

If your paladin is participating in skillchain, he needs haste, but I don't think your paladin tank needs haste in any other situation.

Ranger is a job that never needs haste.

Thief is a job that should always have haste if possible because it will reduce the recast on sneak/trick.

Mages should never have haste.
You can cast haste on someone with slow to cancel out the effect (unless it was the spider's special attack, in which case only erase will cancel out the slow effect)

[Icemage]

I disagree with the above post regarding Haste for PLD. Once you have enough MP to spare for Haste, PLD, NIN, or ANY tank should be the first priority to get Haste.

(1) Haste increases attack speed. More attacks = more enmity = better hate control, allowing damage dealers to hold back less.

(2) Haste reduces recast timers for all spells and spell-like effects (songs, ninjutsu), as well as improving casting speed. This means that not only are PLD able to cast Flash more often, but their Cures are less likely to be interrupted. Same holds true for ninjutsu with Utsusemi as well as offensive ninjutsu.

Regarding mages, the only times I ever cast Haste on a mage is on a white mage who needs to cast multiple Raises (again, reduced spell timer), or when I have spare MP and all frontliners have Haste already. Also, if I see that a red mage in my party is overworked with Refresh and I have extra MP, I will throw them a Haste to reduce their recast timer.

As far as abilities go, I haven't noticed any speed increase for the timers for active abilities. I tested Haste on myself as WHM/BLM last night and didn't see ANY difference with Divine Seal or Elemental Seal.


Icemage

[Alcueid]

The reason PLDs dont need haste is because their existing methods of holding hate are more than enough to keep the hate on them without Haste.

Yes, more haste = more attacks by the PLD, but PLD attacks are quite weak and are not their main source of holding hate. They gate hate mainly through provoke, flash, and curing themselves.

In the majority of times a good PLD does not flash or cure themselves as soon as they can due to mp concerns, they only do it when they know that they need to to hold hate, (or when the spell would be useful for another reason).

Even if you do cast haste on a PLD the only benefit from it is the decreased provoke timer and the increased attack. The decrease of flash and cure recast does not matter because the limiting factor for flash and cure is mp and not recast.

The way the ability provoke works, its hate is maxed out at the instant you use it, and then it drops gradually utnil 30 seconds later the hate from it is at 0. This means decreasing recast on it increases the hate from provoke by ~12%.

Increased attack speed would increase the PLDs very minimal damage by 12%, and increase the enemy's TP build up at the same time.

So I guess what I am trying to say is, if your PLD needs haste to keep the hate, then he is not a very good PLD, or the attackers in your party are not doing what they are supposed to (i.e. BLM casting freeze). The only situation in which a good PLD has trouble holding hate are
1) Rangers
2) Strong sneak/trick skillchain finishes
But strong sneak/trick skillchain finishes usually finish off the enemy in any case so is not a concern.

i.e. you should only Haste your PLD when
1) There are rangers in the party
2) When your PLD is participating in skillchain

As for cure recast, the casting time for cure is so short that if you time it right it won't get interrupted.

>As far as abilities go, I haven't noticed any speed increase for the timers for active abilities. I tested Haste on myself as WHM/BLM last night and didn't see ANY difference with Divine Seal or Elemental Seal.

No there should not be any difference with Divine Seal or Elemental seal because those are 10 minute abilities, while Haste lasts for 3 minutes. Haste only reduces recast on abilities that has a recast below 3 minutes like provoke and sneak/trick.

It reduces provoke recast from 30 seconds to 26.

[Icemage]

At level 62, every party I join has at least one damage dealer who can score 4 digit damage on a skillchain/magic burst. There is no way a PLD can hold hate against that without a combination of all of their abilities + attacks.

If you don't think PLD don't gain significant hate from their attacks you should try talking to some of them. It doesn't comprise a majority of their enmity, but it adds a significant chunk, especially with their +enmity AF gear at level 52+. Hasting your melees without Hasting your tank is just asking to turn your low-DEF attacker into your main tank.


Icemage

[Apple Pie]

I don't really have problem managing my MP with 4 Refresh + 1 Haste now in 10 minutes unless enfeebling spells are often resisted.

If we have NIN tank, then it's something like 3 Refresh + 2 Haste (NIN + someone). That's it.

By the way,

1) 1 Flash = Save 1 or 2 CureIII in most cases.
2) The better PLD hold the hate, the more attackers do resulting in killing them faster

So, you can't really say "Don't need" unless I'm poor at MP management with 4 Refresh + 1 Haste basis.

[Apple Pie]

Oh, it's OT but I love to see Swift -> Cross, hehe. If we have WAR, that's perfect.

[Alcueid]

>At level 62, every party I join has at least one damage dealer who can score 4 digit damage on a skillchain/magic burst. There is no way a PLD can hold hate against that without a combination of all of their abilities + attacks.

There are only two jobs at level 62 that can deal 4 digit damage even on a skillchain. Thief (maybe) and Ranger. At level 60ish fighting perytons in valley of sorrows, a ranger can get up to 1800 dmg from one burst of sidewinder (double damage). Thief usually gets ~600 or so from sneak/trick dancing edge. Dark Knight 400~800 on guillotine depending on how many times they hit. If you include the skillchain effect, then yes most attackers would be dealing 4 digit damage, but there is no way they can deal that much damage from just a weapon skill at that level.

Even if one of your damage dealers can deal 1000dmg from a weapon skill, considering the mobs you fight around level 62 have less than 3000hp. 200 from first weaponskill, 1000 from the second, 400 from the skillchain effect, and 500 from the MB takes out more than half of the mob's HP. If you factor in the time needed for TP to build, holding hate after such a skillchain becomes a non-issue since the mob is dead.

>Hasting your melees without Hasting your tank is just asking to turn your low-DEF attacker into your main tank.

My personal belief is in most cases if your party has enough fire power to grab hate off of a good paladin then you have enough fire power to kill the mob before the mob has a chance to kill your attackers.

Of course if your paladin is not a good paladin who knows how to hold hate, then everything changes.

>2) The better PLD hold the hate, the more attackers do resulting in killing them faster

The only jobs this really applies to are rangers and monks I would say. Black mages do hold back but they are limited in mp.

I was once in a party of pld rng rng whm rdm blm. Even hasted the paladin had trouble holding hate in this party but through good use of utsusemi, flash, and cover the rangers barely got damaged. (The blm was unable to take hate away from the rng or pld)

Through good use of flash (and utusemi for rng) you can prevent a good deal of the damage that would go to your attackers.

With most other attacker jobs they bring along two sets of equipment one for attacking and one for defending, and they switch to the defending set when they are getting attacked by the mob. With that and the use of defender your low-DEF attacker can suddenly turn into a decent-DEF attacker and avoid a good chunk of the damage.

>I don't think your paladin tank needs haste in any other situation.

That was a bit too firm of a statement. "I don't think hasting your paladin tank is a priority in any other situation" would have been better. Because I do haste my paladin tank 90% of the time.

In the end what matters the most is how your party is doing at the time. No one should read things on forums and try to follow them word for word, it is important to try to adapt to the party because everyone plays differently, and the role of every job in the party changes depending on what other jobs are in the party.

I think that if we are going to continue this discussion, we should be a little more specific about what the attacker jobs are, and what the support jobs are in the party. That would allow us to give more details as to why we take such an opposite stance on the issue.

[Arturo-B]

Originally posted by Icemage
At level 62, every party I join has at least one damage dealer who can score 4 digit damage on a skillchain/magic burst. There is no way a PLD can hold hate against that without a combination of all of their abilities + attacks.

If you don't think PLD don't gain significant hate from their attacks you should try talking to some of them. It doesn't comprise a majority of their enmity, but it adds a significant chunk, especially with their +enmity AF gear at level 52+. Hasting your melees without Hasting your tank is just asking to turn your low-DEF attacker into your main tank.

Icemage

I would like to add to Icemage's reasoning that WS's are an integral part of holding hate. Spirits Within does excellent damage at 300% tp. A pld relying just on flash, voke, and cures is not doing their full job once refresh has come into play. Dropping one before or during a sidewinder->viper bite distortion chain often means the mob doesn't even think about turning, especially with SATA in play.

[Alcueid]

>Spirits Within does excellent damage at 300% tp. A pld relying just on flash, voke, and cures is not doing their full job once refresh has come into play.

The issue is not whether a paladin needs physical damage to hold hate or not. The issue is whether a paladin needs a 12% boost to physical damage to hold hate or not.

[Patchinko]

Set PT= NIN, WAR, THF, RNG, RDM, WHM

I always cast it on NIN and THF. THF renkeis with RNG, and since RNG builds TP so fast, THF requires it to keep up. NIN for the reasons mentioned by everyone else. If it seems like the WAR (using G.Axe) can't keep up with the NIN's TP, I cast it on him, but that is rarely the case.

[Deodorant]

Originally posted by Alcueid
The issue is not whether a paladin needs physical damage to hold hate or not. The issue is whether a paladin needs a 12% boost to physical damage to hold hate or not.

Which boils down in the end to how good the pld is. If you have a set, this isn't a problem, but there really is no way to tell in advance what kind of quality tank you're getting in a random pick up party. In any case, unless I am main healer in a no-bard party I keep PLD hasted at all times, regardless of whether they need it or not (I figure, if I can spare the MP, why not make it 'easier' for the tank to keep hate).

[Alcueid]

>Which boils down in the end to how good the pld is. If you have a set, this isn't a problem, but there really is no way to tell in advance what kind of quality tank you're getting in a random pick up party. In any case, unless I am main healer in a no-bard party I keep PLD hasted at all times, regardless of whether they need it or not

Exactly. I agree completely.

But if I don't have the mp to keep the haste on the PLD, and I know he is good enough to keep the hate without it. I will stop casting haste on him unless he is involved in the skillchain and need it for the tp build up.