Sub: Nin vs. RNG and Sidewinder.

[poweryoga]

I've got to say I've learned a lot in this debate.

However, Seriyu's kote makes all the difference why?

Agi is measured up against the Mob's Agi (in the case or ranged attacks), and after that is rolled then It goes to Racc Vs Evasion. If the base agi is higher, of course the ranged attack will hit higher. Its not the +10 Accuracy at all, a much higher base agi at such a high level makes a LOT of difference. But suppose if that +10 acc breaches the base Evasion of the monster, then yes... arrows will hit a lot, that much i'll agree to.

Still, in most cases, I can't justify subbing /nin unless its a high Eva monster.

As for some HNM fights, I've heard Rng sub Sam and spam Spirits within... thats because some HNMs have really nasty AOEs and a lot of ranged attacks will let them build TP too fast and annhilate the whole alliance. Maybe arching arrow too, but I'm almost positive nobody will be spamming arrows on the Gods (or can't hit them to begin with)

Of course people sub Nin in HNM fights.... if you can't hit it, there's no point. /war is usually for lvling, not HNMs as those are special occasions where Drk/Sam equipped with a sword works well too.

Just saying you can't compare HNM fights with Exp fights. In an exp party, I'd rather chain lots of IT-VT to chain 5 every time than chain 3 IT++ to chain 3 every time.

This means evasion is not too much of an issue... but I'm not lvl 65+ and I don't know how evasion stacks up. Its just situations I've been in does not call for nin sub right now.

[greysenn]

Navia,

What level was the rng/war by chance?

[FeralisCallidus]

1:

You, sir, are an astoundingly brazen hypocrite.

Not even 48 hours ago, you made a post where you shout your level several times, and essentially proclaim that these lowbies have no clue what they are talking about, because they don't have the leveling experience you do. Then a 75RNG comes on and flatly disputes basically everything you said. Even a 70RNG, who subbed WAR for 62 levels (i.e. longer than you) comes on and agrees (his exact words: "As for HNM fights.. this is an absolute no brainer.. WAR sub is completly useless..").

I proclaimed my level because a level 30 RNG was telling me I have no idea what I was talking about. There was no other way to shut him up other than that. Furthermore, there is a big difference in PLD hate control from 30 to 50+. At level 30, the PLDs couldn't hold hate after 2-3 consecutive arrows, now they can hold it with constant spam.

2.

1) 2 AGI = 1 RACC. This is well known. You're just trying to feign ignorance because you don't like the conclusion.

BLAZING generalization. That's like saying 2 VIT = 1 DEF, and ONLY one defense. But wait? Does it? No, not really. I'm pretty sure there is a raw stat check, then a skill check.

3.

You have got to be kidding me.

Let's see, on one hand, we have you, citing third-hand information about what JP RNGs supposedly do when they kill a god HNM.

On the other hand, we have first-hand info from a 75RNG/NIN, relaying exactly what she did when she actually killed arguably the toughest HNM in the game. Let me think about which information is more reliable.

Do you know who Kirin is? Do you know what you have to do to spawn him, or who he summons during the fight? Does it just bounce off of your mind when a 75RNG says, "This is exactly what happened when I fought and killed Kirin"?

I don't know man, maybe it's just me... but if I'm fighting a God HNM I don't want keichan firing her puny ass arrows at it, giving it TP. I'd rather be a little more efficient and only use weaponskills on it. Oh, and my third hand information... it's completely accurate and comes from a plethora of high lv JPN players I know, including 1 RNG/WAR/NIN/SAM. I don't care if you BELIEVE me, that's your own choice. I'm telling you what the experts do, and how they do it.

4.

[snip of your rebuttal of Keichan's post... if you're going to dispute her points, have the balls to do so up front. You know where the thread is.

I've stopped replying to that thread. By the time the people I care to read replies from reply, there has been about 2 dozen replies from people I couldn't care less about. This may sound arrogant, or whatever. Shrug. Keichan can come here and read this argument if she wants, hell, send her a link. Please.

5.

Every point of accuracy matters, period.

I agree. Just don't think 10 acc is better than 20%+ increase in damage. =)

6.

[re: PLDs and Arching Arrow]
Did you take a class in selective reading? It is clearly stated that some PLDs have so much +enmity gear that Arching Arrow won't draw aggro. Does "some" mean the same thing as "most" or "all" to you? Are all tanks even PLD?

Keichan was going out of the way to cite a specific case where /WAR is actually better than /NIN, in an attempt to be informative, instead of just win an argument. Of course, you take that one tiny statement ("sometimes in certain situations, /WAR is better") and run to the bank with it. Didn't you just try to reprimand me for doing the same thing to you, re: tanks pulling? Hypocrisy is apparently standard practice for you.

Yeah, well, she went into a specific example of /NIN being better then one of /WAR being better, and cited each as a 'sometimes' scenario. Both can't be sometimes, and she INFERRED that /NIN was the majority of the time, as per her example of damage-over-time and ghetto-blink tanking. I'm the hypocrit? She's the one that said WAR will be able to pull aggro with AA if NIN can't, then just after she claimed that NIN can easily pull aggro with normal attacks! One of these statements is bullshit, pick one.


So, here's your post in a nutshell:

+ Every point of accuracy matters! [I agree, but to an extent. ]

+ But, But... you said level doesn't matter and you proclaimed your level on Allakhazam! [ Had a reason to ]

+ Keichan said this, so your information, even though it comes from a far superior source, doesn't matter!!! [ Ahuh. ]


Oh: And... a sidenote, about me saying Tanks should pull in certain situations: it's true, doesn't mean I think that RNG should never pull. I think that is pretty obvious. Comparing this to her bootleg examples of /WAR advantages and /NIN advantages is ridiculous. Honestly, the /NIN advantage she referred to is only if you have a subpar PLD, or are fighting flying mobs. Otherwise, /WAR is the only thing that will be able to pull aggro with normal attacks.

[FeralisCallidus]

Sorry, missed a second post by Spider-Dan:

AGI and RACC can't have the same relationship as, say, STR and ATK, or DEF and VIT. The reason is simple. Accuracy has a binary result; either you hit, or you miss. You don't get credit for landing part of a shot.

Therefore, the whole concept of raising the curve (e.g. ATK raises the average damage per hit in your given damage curve) doesn't apply. Accuracy is accuracy. For any given attack, there is no difference between landing 95% of a hit (if that makes sense), and 5% of a hit. Both are simply misses.

Doesn't mean there isn't two checks.



And...

FeralisCallidus, In the "general EXP party situations," where you say /WAR is superior to /NIN, is it true that the /NIN will not generate enough hate to make full (2-3 consecutive shadow-hits) use of Utsusemi?

Not unless you have a NIN tank, a WAR tank, or a subpar PLD tank. Or, use a special ability or Weaponskill [Barrage/Sidewinder/Arching]

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by FeralisCallidus
I proclaimed my level because a level 30 RNG was telling me I have no idea what I was talking about. There was no other way to shut him up other than that.

Fine. Since you're only LV60, and the other two RNGs in that thread are 70+, you don't know WTF you are talking about.

Quid pro quo.

BLAZING generalization. That's like saying 2 VIT = 1 DEF, and ONLY one defense.

Why are you suddenly trying to reinvent the wheel? There are about 1239863218 posts on this forum (and others) saying 2 AGI = 1 RACC. Furthermore, I just explained why accuracy can't scale in the same way as damage. It's a binary result! For any given attack, either you have enough accuracy to hit, or you miss.

I don't know man, maybe it's just me... but if I'm fighting a God HNM I don't want keichan firing her puny ass arrows at it, giving it TP. I'd rather be a little more efficient and only use weaponskills on it.

Well, I don't know, maybe it's just me... but when talking about how best to kill god HNMs, I think I'll take the advice of someone who has actually done it over someone who hasn't.

Oh, and my third hand information... it's completely accurate and comes from a plethora of high lv JPN players I know, including 1 RNG/WAR/NIN/SAM. I don't care if you BELIEVE me, that's your own choice. I'm telling you what the experts do, and how they do it.

So yay, your third-hand rumors are sometimes actually second-hand hearsay! Let's throw out that first-hand info right away!

I've stopped replying to that thread. By the time the people I care to read replies from reply, there has been about 2 dozen replies from people I couldn't care less about. This may sound arrogant, or whatever. Shrug.

Give me a break. Is it somehow mentally straining to scroll down the screen while looking only at the names of the posts? It takes almost 5 seconds per page!

You seemed to be doing just fine in that thread when you were the big-time LV60... then when the LV70+s came and blew you out of the water, now it's just too tough to manage all the replies. It's quite easy to criticize Keichan's response on another forum, in a thread she doesn't even know about, where she can't respond. (and BTW, I did notice that you backhandedly criticized her post in another thread on this forum, too...)

If you are going to run around on this forum claiming that someone else is a LV75 newbie, the least you can do is respond to their (perfectly valid!) retorts to your argument to their face, first.

Yeah, well, she went into a specific example of /NIN being better then one of /WAR being better, and cited each as a 'sometimes' scenario. Both can't be sometimes, and she INFERRED that /NIN was the majority of the time, as per her example of damage-over-time and ghetto-blink tanking. I'm the hypocrit? She's the one that said WAR will be able to pull aggro with AA if NIN can't, then just after she claimed that NIN can easily pull aggro with normal attacks!

Why is this so difficult for you?

Under most circumstances (as opposed to some), /NIN will be able to pull aggro by firing non-stop. In certain limited situations (PLDs with super enmity+ gear) this won't work. In this certain limited situation, assuming you need to use Arching Arrow (which is not guaranteed!) and assuming that you have a THF (which is REALLY not guaranteed!), /WAR is better.

[JayblahX]

Another flamewar involving Ferallis and his never-ending need to get the last word and insist that he's always right because he's got a team of 3,000 Japanese players with Ph.D's in Final Fantasy XI at his beck and call?

:angel:

Don't waste your time Dan.

Oh yeah! I'm 4 levels away from the "magical" level 50s I needed to be to talk with Ferallis. See you in 4 levels!

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by FeralisCallidus
Doesn't mean there isn't two checks.

That was pretty slick. The casual observer may not have noticed that (with no supporting evidence, mind you) you just invented another check to give your argument some weight.

Ultimately, it's just another smokescreen. Invent fifty checks if you want. Either you get a 0 (miss) or a 1 (hit). Like I said, it's a binary result.

[Navia]

Originally posted by greysenn
Navia,

What level was the rng/war by chance?

57 , killing crabs,terror pugils,velociraptors in cape terrigan

[KamaAina]

AHHHH!

what happened to this thread!? Anyways I said it once I will say it agian they are both great subs.

<- notice my current sub .. might have to change it though after I get sidewinder but we will see!

[Keichan]

I never knew people talked behind my back; ;. I didn't even get a chance to defend myself... ::sob sob::

Btw. Thank you Spider-Dan, for posting on my behalf, when I had no idea what was going on behind me=P

I'll address a few things, but let me start with the Rng/Sam thing with HNM's.

You say that there are many JP's that sub Rng/Sam during these fights and from what I have seen, this is false. During these HNM God fights, I get the opportunity to play with some of the strongest Rangers on this server. During these fights, these Rangers all sub Ninja. Not Samurai. If all these Rangers all just counted on meditate to deal their damage, the alliance would fall asleep before these HNM's die. No, we must keep shooting. When just about all the black mages fail their spells, monks only have chi blast, no melee can even touch the NM... What are you going to do? Sit there and meditate as the HNM runs around!? No. Rangers will shoot... not sit there and meditate. If you do, however, find out that the Ranger/Samurais actually SHOOT normal arrows during these HNM fights, your argument is moot (because you based it on giving HNM TP), but I don't doubt that Ranger/Samurais are used sometimes. The damage output, however, will be less on Ranger/Samurai than Ranger/Ninja for the cost of giving the HNM less TP.

During these fights, hate is very unsticky. This is because no tank actually gets too much hate at a given time. That means, that measily 560 damage hit you made early on the fight might actually give you enough aggro to kill you later in the battle. This is what Lhexh (lvl70) refers to the "ninja sub being a no brainer". You seriously can not take multiple hit from this NM. It hits for 400+ per hit. Utsusemi is a "must". Hate is very unpredictable as well, you'd never know--- when the tank that has the most hate dies (which happens very often), you might even have to tank 9 hits until another tank consolidates enough aggro.

In terms of Arching Arrow and Sidewinder during HNM fights. I do not miss sidewinders that often. Sidewinder is a more damaging WS. Of course, warrior subs would miss more so they'd use arching arrow, but sidewinder will beat arching arrow no matter what sub you use.

That is about HNM fights.

------

Normal Leveling
You did state to me in a few posts ago (I forget exact ones so I can't quote it), that I did say
"Warriors can deal more damage"
and then later on, I say
"Warriors dealing similar damage to Ninja"

This is because I was talking in two different aspects of "damage". Warrior subs can deal more damage in a stand alone fashion, but in a leveling party, they can not use it all because of aggro problems (while berserked). True, Ninja subs don't deal as much as a Warrior sub in stand alone instances, but in parties, (which is what you're going to be playing in most of your FFXI career), Ninjas have methods of delaying hate until the mob dies which leads to overall more damage. A warrior has to shoot and stop short from a hate barrier, a Ninja can step far over the hate barrier and still keep the party (and herself), alive. If you read my example and really really understand it, you'd still be above the normal hate threshold though, you don't have aggro when the mob dies. (you'd actually be "ahead" in terms of damage).

Though, I can never always argue one way. Warriors will fare better if they always get the last hit. But this is a waste in some instances because the fact of "overkill" defeats the purpose of more damage. And in instances where it isn't overkill, it is risky for the ranger (because they'd end up tanking the rest of the battle which can take up too much MP).

I'd post more afterwords if you like, I'm kinda more comfortable in allakazham forums more though, feels more like home^^

PS. I forgot one more thing=P
You talk about Seiryuu's Kote that gives +15 agility, +10 ranged accuracy and revere it as "Too much as an advantage". However, didn't you just say that you'd rather have that +20% attack bonus over this puny +12.5 ranged accuracy? I mean... really, I have max archery at 269 and my equip gives me a lot of ranged accuracy as well.. This 12.5 ranged accuracy consists of less than 3% of all the ranged accuracy I have.. This +12.5 ranged accuracy is nothing? I highly doubt that. I live on this 12.5 ranged accuracy. Spider-Dan's Binary idea hits it right on. I agree with him totally. This 12.5 ranged accuracy determines if I can hit this HNM God at 90% or 30%.

[FeralisCallidus]

Fine. Since you're only LV60, and the other two RNGs in that thread are 70+, you don't know WTF you are talking about.

Quid pro quo.

Yeah, because we all know Hate-Control is completely revamped in those ten levels? ...If it's true then i'll bow out of that one, but I doubt it does.

Why are you suddenly trying to reinvent the wheel? There are about 1239863218 posts on this forum (and others) saying 2 AGI = 1 RACC. Furthermore, I just explained why accuracy can't scale in the same way as damage. It's a binary result! For any given attack, either you have enough accuracy to hit, or you miss.

Who the hell cares what posts say? Previously, posts also said that STR doesn't affect gun damage. Well, guess what? They do. Posts everywhere also say 2VIT=1DEF, 2STR=1ATK, yaddayaddayadda. And no, you didn't PROVE anything. You said it doesn't necessarily HAVE to have two checks, because it is a binary result. However, it is PERFECTLY possible [ And, IMO, likely ] that it still has two separate checks.

Well, I don't know, maybe it's just me... but when talking about how best to kill god HNMs, I think I'll take the advice of someone who has actually done it over someone who hasn't.

You do that, and i'll stick with my the advice my friends have given me.

So yay, your third-hand rumors are sometimes actually second-hand hearsay! Let's throw out that first-hand info right away!

Rumors? :confused:

Give me a break. Is it somehow mentally straining to scroll down the screen while looking only at the names of the posts? It takes almost 5 seconds per page!

You seemed to be doing just fine in that thread when you were the big-time LV60... then when the LV70+s came and blew you out of the water, now it's just too tough to manage all the replies. It's quite easy to criticize Keichan's response on another forum, in a thread she doesn't even know about, where she can't respond. (and BTW, I did notice that you backhandedly criticized her post in another thread on this forum, too...)

If you are going to run around on this forum claiming that someone else is a LV75 newbie, the least you can do is respond to their (perfectly valid!) retorts to your argument to their face, first.

Woa woa woa, hold on there cowboy. Like I said before, I don't care if she reads, or replies to my criticisms. But, REMEMBER, Spidey, YOU ARE THE ONE that posted her comments here and used them in your own argument. I don't post on allakhazam anymore for reasons i've mentioned, so I opted to respond to it in this thread. Hell, I even suggested you give her the URL. Yeah, OK, my bad for making her go to another, easier-on-the-eyes board? Whoopdie do? And when did I call her a newbie?

Why is this so difficult for you?

Under most circumstances (as opposed to some), /NIN will be able to pull aggro by firing non-stop. In certain limited situations (PLDs with super enmity+ gear) this won't work. In this certain limited situation, assuming you need to use Arching Arrow (which is not guaranteed!) and assuming that you have a THF (which is REALLY not guaranteed!), /WAR is better.

No, she didn't say most. She said some. And... by most, you mean... of all tanks? So, you're speaking in terms of NIN tank, WAR tank and PLD tank. You'll be able to pull aggro off of 90% of NINs, 90% of WARs and around 40% of PLDs. So yeah, I guess that's most. If you include the tanks that aren't exactly designed to hold hate from Rangers. And... by super enmity+ gear, You mean PLD AF? yeah, OK. So Post 60, /NIN with a PLD won't be able to pull aggro. Gotcha. Yeah, so limited. A PT with a PLD. And, you don't need a THF. You can have a DRK/THF for Spinning Slash.



Onto Keichan:

I never knew people talked behind my back; ;. I didn't even get a chance to defend myself... ::sob sob::

Remember, Spidey posted your comments, not me. So, he brought you into this.

Btw. Thank you Spider-Dan, for posting on my behalf, when I had no idea what was going on behind me=P

Yes, thank him for CPing your argument, then bitching at me for not rebutting on both forums.

If all these Rangers all just counted on meditate to deal their damage, the alliance would fall asleep before these HNM's die.

Never said that, I said they build TP on surrounding mobs if they are there as well as meditate

That means, that measily 560 damage hit you made early on the fight might actually give you enough aggro to kill you later in the battle. This is what Lhexh (lvl70) refers to the "ninja sub being a no brainer". You seriously can not take multiple hit from this NM. It hits for 400+ per hit. Utsusemi is a "must".

Aerial Armor and Third Eye? Just different tactics, maybe.

In terms of Arching Arrow and Sidewinder during HNM fights. I do not miss sidewinders that often. Sidewinder is a more damaging WS. Of course, warrior subs would miss more so they'd use arching arrow, but sidewinder will beat arching arrow no matter what sub you use.

If you don't miss sidewinders that often, then you really must not have that big of an accuracy issue.

This is because I was talking in two different aspects of "damage". Warrior subs can deal more damage in a stand alone fashion, but in a leveling party, they can not use it all because of aggro problems (while berserked). True, Ninja subs don't deal as much as a Warrior sub in stand alone instances, but in parties, (which is what you're going to be playing in most of your FFXI career), Ninjas have methods of delaying hate until the mob dies which leads to overall more damage. A warrior has to shoot and stop short from a hate barrier, a Ninja can step far over the hate barrier and still keep the party (and herself), alive. If you read my example and really really understand it, you'd still be above the normal hate threshold though, you don't have aggro when the mob dies. (you'd actually be "ahead" in terms of damage).

Ok, maybe i'm just stupid. What is the difference of SPIKING WAY OVER THE THRESHOLD OF HATE, then waiting until the PLD regains it, and staying just below it the entire time? I must be missing something. And, as i've said before, I don't have to stop shooting at all because I have a decent PLD with his [ uber enmity + ] AF. If I don't stop shooting, then I subbed NIN and did the same... i'd miss out on damage. Period.

Though, I can never always argue one way. Warriors will fare better if they always get the last hit. But this is a waste in some instances because the fact of "overkill" defeats the purpose of more damage. And in instances where it isn't overkill, it is risky for the ranger (because they'd end up tanking the rest of the battle which can take up too much MP).

Or if they have a simple THF or DRK/THF [ Spinning Slash ] in their PT. And, no, it wouldn't be risky. How about Guillotine > Sidewinder at half HP, then a hefty MB or two to finish it off while aerial armor takes hits? Or, maybe on chain 5 when you feel like insta-killing something, and do Guillotine > Sidewinder, PLD covers you, BLM MBs Burst?

PS. I forgot one more thing=P
You talk about Seiryuu's Kote that gives +15 agility, +10 ranged accuracy and revere it as "Too much as an advantage". However, didn't you just say that you'd rather have that +20% attack bonus over this puny +12.5 ranged accuracy? I mean... really, I have max archery at 269 and my equip gives me a lot of ranged accuracy as well.. This 12.5 ranged accuracy consists of less than 3% of all the ranged accuracy I have.. This +12.5 ranged accuracy is nothing? I highly doubt that. I live on this 12.5 ranged accuracy. Spider-Dan's Binary idea hits it right on. I agree with him totally. This 12.5 ranged accuracy determines if I can hit this HNM God at 90% or 30%.

Like I said, there is probably more to it than 2AGI=1RNGACC. Furthermore, I don't doubt the scaled RNGACC/EVA ratio. Lastly, woo, spider dan knows that either an attack hits or misses. Kudos to him. Doesn't prove that there is only one check, like I said~

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by FeralisCallidus
And no, you didn't PROVE anything. You said it doesn't necessarily HAVE to have two checks, because it is a binary result. However, it is PERFECTLY possible [ And, IMO, likely ] that it still has two separate checks.

You are the one claiming that there are two checks. Where's your evidence? How did you arrive at the specific number of two checks? Why not three, five, or seventeen?

There is obviously at least one check. If you are claiming that there are more, show your proof, or drop it.

Like I said before, I don't care if she reads, or replies to my criticisms. But, REMEMBER, Spidey, YOU ARE THE ONE that posted her comments here and used them in your own argument. I don't post on allakhazam anymore for reasons i've mentioned, so I opted to respond to it in this thread.

Bullsh*t. What about this post:

http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/sho...V75#post390830

Observe the time and date on said post.

You were already trying to counterpoint Keichan in totally unrelated threads, before I brought it up. It's very easy to do so when the original source has no opportunity to respond, isn't it? That makes you look really smart.

Any objection you had should have been brought up in the original thread, which (again) you didn't seem to have a problem posting in, until you started getting bombed on by actual gameplay evidence from RNGs that are higher level than you. Cue Feralis' hasty exit.

[re: tanking HNM]

Aerial Armor and Third Eye? Just different tactics, maybe.

Are you seriously trying to claim that Aerial Armor + Third Eye replaces Utsusemi Ichi + Ni? I can't stop laughing.

From reading your responses, it sounds an awful lot like you're saying /SAM is better than /WAR. Or is your goal solely to discredit /NIN at any cost?

[poweryoga]

Well, seeing how Vit is used to lower overall max damage (see pld forum), I'm guessing there IS a raw stat check before any of the skill checks. This would explain why +15 Agi is such a big deal and why every ranger wants those Kotes (or Crimson finger gauntlets).

I would think those gloves are the ones making the difference in Kei's accuracy, but for HNM fights I'm sure nin sub is a no brainer.

If you want to check.... do Nin sub and not wear gloves, and do Nin sub and wear gloves, and check the accuracy.

After that, sub something else (say War) and check accuracy with and without gloves.

Then we'll see if those 10 acc make a difference or not. I don't have the kotes, nor the ability to participate in the slaying of gods, so I'm going to leave this to the ranger with both of those criteria fulfilled to find out.

Also, while on the subject of shooting HNMs.... doesn't it give it oo much TP? I never seen AOE from those guys but I'm pretty sure its something you don't want to get hit by too often.

[Keichan]

Quote By Feralis
"Never said that, I said they build TP on surrounding mobs if they are there as well as meditate"

You really don't know how a God HNM battle works... do you... If you knew, you'd know that the area where you kill Kirin... There are no mobs. It is an open arena. Just you, and that ??? on the floor where you your alliance where you trade your four seals of the gods.

Quote by Feralis
"Aerial Armor and Third Eye? Just different tactics, maybe."

Aerial Armor!?!!? ARE YOU KIDDING ME!? Byakko triple attacks VERY frequently and hits for 300+ (additonal damage 50 unless you throw the special throwing items). If you tell me Aerial Armor will save me--- I might as well dig my own grave and build my own coffin while I'm at it. You can not live without utsusemi. Besides, a summoner has better things to do than to take care of your butt.

Also, Kirin fight is not as simple as a single alliance. In order to win, you will not have "balanced parties". Therefore, you'd probably won't have a summoner with you.

Quote by Feralis
"Ok, maybe i'm just stupid. What is the difference of SPIKING WAY OVER THE THRESHOLD OF HATE, then waiting until the PLD regains it,"

There is a big difference. In one instance, the moment the pld regains the hate, he doesn't have a full provoke worth of hate over you. In the other, the pld does have a full provoke full of hate (When you wait for pld to regain full hate). When a pld doesn't have a full provoke over the ranger, the ranger is actual "ahead" in terms of hate.

Also: in terms of the extra +enmity gear I speak of:
This does not include Pld AF. This is because most people utilize Pld AF, in normal circumstances, a ranger/nin can steal hate from a Pld with normal enmity gear. It is those certain instances when a pld wears extra accessories that add extra enmity is what causes problems.

[Kenki]

I have my 2 cents.

2Agi = 1 Rng acc as well as 2Dex = 1Acc.

These are based on the fact that 2Str = 1Atk, 2Vit = 1Vit and some other info which I don't really know. However, since SE didn't say that 2Dex = 1Acc, they also added that it'd be best to increase Acc instead of Dex if you need more accuracy. I assume that means 2Agi might not be equal to 1Rngacc and it'd be best to increase Rngacc directly (if possible) instead of Agi.

Also, because there are a million posts told you so doesn't mean that it has to be so. Look at the old fact a couple hundred years ago when everyone said the Sun was circling around the Earth. I highly doubt that anyone can confirm that 2Agi = 1Rngacc unless he has inside info on this (which will make it illegal and SE will probably do something on that).

-------------------------------------------

Kenchan said that Rng/Nin does more damage than Rng/War since Rng/War has to hold back because of hate build up in an exp party.

I don't quite agree with that. Kenchan argument assuming that all tanks can not hold hate from Rng/xxx and they can lose hate anytime.
This is not quite true. I'm quite sure there are some people good at tanking and can control hate better than others. Depends on the party setup and mob that people are fighting, tanks can hold hate even if Rng/War going berserk unless he's an idiot using heavy hits right at start of battle.
Also, trick attack skill have proven to be useful in helping tanks control hate. There is a high chance you will come across a party with it.
I agree that there is a possibility that Rng/War or Rng/Sam getting too much hate and might die before the tank can gain hate again (2~8sec). However, if the mob can actually kill a ranger that fast (before tank and mages use Cure on you) then I don't really think your tank can take damage well enough from the mob either!

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How good is +12.5 acc? Kenchan said it's 3% of her total Rngacc and this 3% difference in the total acc makes you hit 30% or 90% of the time. Sounds like a difference between a B+ and A- (79% and 82%).

You might have used a calculator or a praser to have that number. However, I will highly doubt that number is correct unless you have more than 3 tests to confirm that. I don't want to use raw data (ie. looking at the chat log to see how many time you miss) only and estimate the total accuracy. People tends to estimate the wrong number. Just think of people playing dices where most of them think that getting 6,6,6 is extremely rare compare to getting a 3,4,1.

If possible, you can make a complete list of total miss and hit of having +12.5 rngacc and not have it. Using on same type of monster with similar levels. Write down the total accuracy then we will see.

If it is true then FFXI has a serious trouble SE needs to fix. There is pratically no much difference between 43 and 46 Str or 250 and 260 Atk but there is a HUGE difference on 100 and 103 Rngacc. This doesn't sound right and it has to be fixed somehow.