Sub: Nin vs. RNG and Sidewinder.

[Navia]

I am a nin/war that usually skillchains with ranger - I was going to strangle the rng/war the other night for missing sidewinder so many times - even with hunters prelude she missed 4 in a row even when saving to 300%tp.

She had good equipment but lacking that extra archer/hawker knife from dual wield seems to really hurt landing sidewiders - she was so emberassed and frustrated herself that she almost left to go level up ninja sub ;x

Maybe rng/war is better against low IT monsters where monster evade isn't a big difference, but i've had enough bad experience with rng/war that i'd ask them to use ninja sub now-.-

RNG stand alone damage doesn't mean much when I can't rely on you to start a skillchain without missing so the mages can magic burst off the resulting skillchain. Thats just my opinion :p

[FeralisCallidus]

I am a nin/war that usually skillchains with ranger - I was going to strangle the rng/war the other night for missing sidewinder so many times - even with hunters prelude she missed 4 in a row even when saving to 300%tp.

She had good equipment but lacking that extra archer/hawker knife from dual wield seems to really hurt landing sidewiders - she was so emberassed and frustrated herself that she almost left to go level up ninja sub ;x

What's this prove?

So she has bad luck. Subbing NIN wouldn't have made her land all 4.

(maybe you don't whatever I like my PLD and I still get hit sometimes because I setup renkei with a thf I dont know how you don't get hit doing that).

Aerial Armor.

[poweryoga]

ok first... delete that quad post spam please.... -.-

aren't we getting a bit defensive here? if you actually READ my post you'll see this line that I posted...

"So in the end, i see no real point in subbing nin (yet) just because the situations I've been in does not call for more accuracy or utsusemi yet. "

Did you mention both sides of the argument? No. All you did was say how you 'would rather' sub war but you never said ANYTHING about why. From my point of view, all that translates into "Nins are better, war sucks." If you want them to be seen as equal, present why /war is better or it'll be easily seen as bashing.

You still haven't mentioned why they're "equal" in terms of subs despite your constant blabbering about it. I already told you I have nothing against Nin subs, but If you aren't going to listen, I'm not going to argue with you. As for feralis, I read his post but his 2nd post was after mine, so unless I can see into the future at the time of posting I'm obviously not going to be able to read it.

Feralis did explain his case, and if you don't like his opinion, tough shit eh? God forbid he has an opinion. Of course that makes him a jerk.


As for sidewinder accuracy... its just luck. You can miss 10 in a row with the best equipment in the world and /nin. Or you can hit 10 in a row with nothing equipped short of a bow at 100 Tp. I'm starting to think those sidewinders are affected by moon phase, Day, and time of day.... -.-

[Navia]

Originally posted by FeralisCallidus


What's this prove?

So she has bad luck. Subbing NIN wouldn't have made her land all 4.

That was just her longest streak of missing on skillchain, she was still missing every other one
For a 3hr pt when have the rng/war miss over 12 sidewinders with 40ish ranged acc +sharpshot+hunters prelude it just leaves a lasting impression of rng/war is less reliable.
You can blow it off as them having bad luck but i've never seen rng/nin come anywhere close to missing that much.

I'd rather do piercing arrow>blade retsu skillchain with a rng/war at 100% tp multiple times a fight instead of waiting for rng/war to get 300%tp and miss sidewinder yet again :dead:

If I ever play rng more I don't see why I would ever want to sub war myself - i'll take slightly lower damage but more accurate attacks with utsusemi as a damage buffer subbing nin because not everyone lives in a static pt with a competent PLD.

[KamaAina]

Ok last post for me on this topic....

I REALLY dont care I am even subbing /war right now instead of /nin so...

Ok this is in responce to the whole the extra dagger is only 4% of your accuracy nonsense..

Yes it is overall only 4% of your total accuracy. But let me explain to you how accuracy works...

Whether you hit or miss is based on your Accuracy vs. the Monsters Evasion.

An IT monster has more evasion (usually) then your accuracy.

So for example (not using real numbers here)

Lets say your base accuracy is (with regular gear, 1 dagger and your skill points)

580

and the monsters evasion is

600

now this is why that extra +10 ranged accuracy is important and why people spend so much on equipment.

if you add that 10 to your base accuracy you get

590

vs.

600

and now comes the equation (not sure what it is it must be pretty complicated because I can even miss Too Weak to be Worthwhile sometimes) but I do know that those two numbers factor into it. And the higher you can get your accuracy even if just 4% the better.

So really don't think of it is 4% but as closing the gap between your accuracy and the monsters evasion. When the gap is only 20 or so points (I just did this based on that we don't really get that much of a boost in skillpoints/evasion per level so I doubt the monsters do) all of a sudden you have almost a 50% boost.

So see that is why people spend gil on equipment instead of running around naked with their base accuracy from skillpoints (which is the majority of your accuracy).

And that my friends is why people will spend 3 million gil on a peacock charm or a hawker's +1 knife or chose to be a Mithra or an Elvaan. Every little difference does matter...

[FeralisCallidus]

TThat was just her longest streak of missing on skillchain, she was still missing every other one
For a 3hr pt when have the rng/war miss over 12 sidewinders with 40ish ranged acc +sharpshot+hunters prelude it just leaves a lasting impression of rng/war is less reliable.
You can blow it off as them having bad luck but i've never seen rng/nin come anywhere close to missing that much.

And, I've never missed CLOSE to that many. I get angry if I miss one in 5 sidewinders.


And, on a side note~

We know how the equations work, for the most part, and we realize they aren't linear.

[Spider-Dan]

There's an excellent post on another forum from a 75RNG that addresses this exact topic. (Feralis is posting in that thread also, so this should be nothing new to him)

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/jobs.h...&num=66&page=2

I'm going to talk about a few things
1. Pulling Mobs that Run faster than you.
2. The Importance of Ranged Accuracy
3. Overall Warrior Vs. Nin Subs for Ranger.

1. First off, Rangers do have the ability to pull coerals, tigers, raptors, etc that are much faster than you. You just have to be able to handle the situation correctly--- I know that I really didn't like to do this when I was starting to pull these things... But eventually, you will notice that rangers do a very good job at it. Though, a ninja can do a good job, and a thief can do even better in some situations.

I have described earlier on my "Strategy" post a long time ago about the use of shadowbind. You can pull a mob, let it eat utsusemi, turn around for a split second to use shadowbind, while it is bound, run far away, and recast utsusemi, shoot the mob (to release it from shadowbind), And finally, run back to camp. Of course, you're going to say that "you can only do that one time every 5 minutes!". Ok, if you are able to pull it off, you can shoot the mob, run until 2 shadows are out, stop, cast utsusemi: ichi and run back to camp. Of course, this gives you a shorter distance to pull, but you actually gain a bit of distance by stopping to make that pitstop to recast utsusemi. You can separate the mobs that you pull as close, medium, and far pulls. Far pulls can only be done with shadowbind, medium pulls can be done with the double utsusemi run, and close can be done with even just one set of images.

2. Ah, Ranged Accuracy. At level 69 when I went to Kuftal Tunnel to level on Greater Cockatrice, I hit more than 50% of my shots. I hit lvl 70 and was able to wear my War Beret, and War Brais, and I was hitting more than 90%. That is only +9 ranged accuracy (+6 that I get from the level). I take that gear off--- and boom, at lvl 70, I couldn't hit them.

This weekend, I killed Kirin. (I'll tell you guys about the fight=D on the other thread!). To tell you the difference that +10 Accuracy does to your accuracy... The week before, I didn't have Seiryuu's Kote. I could not hit Kirin with sidewinders at 100 TP + 2x preludes. I missed more than 75% of all my shots without prelude, and I hit about 60% with 2x prelude. This week, when I fought Kirin with Seiryuu's Kote, I didn't need prelude to hit Kirin at all. I just shot my arrows, and they connected. Sidewinders hit at 100TP + 2x preludes and I survived death 10+ times because I was able to tank Kirin enough times with Utsusemi: Ichi and Ni. (Until I figured out that I should log off to erase hate). Ranged Accuracy is very important. If I did not have this equipment, I know I would not have performed if I had otherwise.

3. Rng/War can be used in some situations that would do slightly better than Rng/Nin. Some Pld/Wars have so much Enmity gear that Rng/Nin can not take hate from simply an Arching Arrow. In that case, since a Rng/War can do more damage, they can breech this barrier. (This is refering to the Rng, Pld, Thf setup).

However, if you look at the big overall picture. Rng/War is not a viable sub to HNM's due to high evasion. Every single Ranged Accuracy counts. And an extra Archer's/Hawker's dagger is no exception. During HNM fights, I don't use Fransisca (giving me +7 ranged attack +7 ranged accuracy). I use a 2nd Hawker's Knife in those instances because that +4 ranged accuracy will make my sidewinder miss--- or hit.

In terms of skill of managing hate, it does not take more "skill" to manage hate on a Warrior than a Ninja sub. Warriors get to manage hate by shooting less. Ninjas get to manage hate by buying time. Both requires skills of their own, and respectivley different.

Buying time you ask... The reason why I think ninja subs can deal more damage than a warrior is the bases of "Buying time"

Let's give an example of a warrior that can control hate VERY well.

Pld Hate= 500 Hate
Ranger Hate= 499 Hate (equal to 499 damage)

The battle goes like this
Pld Generates 500 Hate
Ranger Generates 499 Hate (and stops shooting)
Wait till Pld's abilites can generate 500 more hate
Pld Generates 500 Hate
Ranger Generates 499 Hate (and stops shooting)
Mob Dies

Let's give an example of a ninja that can buy time
Pld Generates 500 Hate
Ranger Generates 600 Hate
Utsusemi happens until pld's ability generates 500 more hate
Pld Generates 500 Hate
(Right now, if you notice, the damage threshold for the ranger is 400 damage--- 400 damage until he gets hate)- none the less, at this moment of time, the pld gets hate)
Ranger Generates 600 Hate
Utsusemi happens until pld's ability generates 500 more hate

In this scenario, the Ranger/Ninja is able to deal more damage because the mob would be dead by the time the Ranger hate overcomes the Pld's hate abilites.

It isn't because I can't control hate that I make it attack me. I "want" it to attack me so that i can first off, save heals from the pld, and secondly, I want to make sure I'm well over the hate barrier when he does his next provoke.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by FeralisCallidus
Oh, and before you start asking about the skill thing, it was established in an interview with an SE representative somewhere. ANYWAY...

Where was this? Everything I've seen has simply stated that 1 point of skill = 1 ACC and 1 ATK. But if you want to use the 0.9 stat...

10.5/269 = LESS than a 4% increase in accuracy. Hmm...

You repeatedly try to trivialize RACC by comparing it to the whole. Let's put it in perspective, relative to the game, to show how much even the smallest difference matters.

At LV60, the accuracy difference between having a Hawker's Knife in sub slot and not having one is greater than the accuracy difference between an A rank and C rank weapon! (Compared to a plain old Archer's in sub, you're still significantly worse than a B rank weapon, but slightly better than a C)

Still think RACC is so trivial?

[FeralisCallidus]

You repeatedly try to trivialize RACC by comparing it to the whole. Let's put it in perspective, relative to the game, to show how much even the smallest difference matters.

At LV60, the difference between having a Hawker's Knife in sub slot and not having one is greater than the difference between an A rank and C rank weapon! (Compared to a plain old Archer's in sub, you're still significantly worse than a B rank weapon, but slightly better than a C)

Still think RACC is so trivial?

Never said it was Trivial, Spidey, read my posts. What I constantly alluded to was the difference in agility between subs is not enough to justify the loss of Berserk, Attack Bonus or Warcry.



Furthermore, about the levle 75 RNG on allakhazam. I do believe that Level does not justify intelligence [ As blatently proven by the 'Highest level NA RNG' on my server']. This person, who shall remain nameless, may be the highest level~ but people constantly tell us other rangers that he is far from the best, hell, he is plain mediocre... if that.


Anyway, on to Keichan or whatever the hell his name is. He claims that /NIN and /WAR do the same damage overall ( Go ahead and visualize the graph). However, it seems that Keichii failed to implement a vertical shift in this mental graph of his/hers, as a RNG/NIN cannot hold his hate consistantly as high as a warrior [ Think RMS values and alternating current ].

Honestly, Keichan's Shadowbind pull is just an asinine trick that can be used once in 5 minutes, and really slows down pulling, so I won't even give that a nod as clever.

Secondly, his/her description of accuracy against an HNM is not valid in XP PTs. He/she equipped SEIRYU'S KOTE, which is AGI+15, if i'm not mistaken. If it is true that AGI is to RNGACC as VIT is to DEF, then we can see why it made so much of a difference. [ Among other things (nonlinear RNGACC/EVA graph blah blah ] Moving on...



check this out:

In this scenario, the Ranger/Ninja is able to deal more damage because the mob would be dead by the time the Ranger hate overcomes the Pld's hate abilites.

It isn't because I can't control hate that I make it attack me. I "want" it to attack me so that i can first off, save heals from the pld, and secondly, I want to make sure I'm well over the hate barrier when he does his next provoke.

Compared to...

3. Rng/War can be used in some situations that would do slightly better than Rng/Nin. Some Pld/Wars have so much Enmity gear that Rng/Nin can not take hate from simply an Arching Arrow. In that case, since a Rng/War can do more damage, they can breech this barrier. (This is refering to the Rng, Pld, Thf setup).

Interesting. If that's true, then the quote above can't be true for most cases... OH! I see, numero 1 must have been an astoundingly specific case where /NIN's DMG was equivalent to /WAR's damage. So, then, why did he/she post it? No clue.

However, if you look at the big overall picture. Rng/War is not a viable sub to HNM's due to high evasion. Every single Ranged Accuracy counts. And an extra Archer's/Hawker's dagger is no exception. During HNM fights, I don't use Fransisca (giving me +7 ranged attack +7 ranged accuracy). I use a 2nd Hawker's Knife in those instances because that +4 ranged accuracy will make my sidewinder miss--- or hit.

Ahem, contrary to Keichan's beliefs, most 75 JPN RNGs sub SAM when doing uber HNM fights, since normal arrows won't really damage them~ just give them TP. [ i.e. the gods ]. They generally run around killing things, meditating and turn around to use Arching Arrow [[[[[ NOT SIDEWINDER ]]]]].


If the fight allows you to straight up battle the HNM [ Like most low level HNMs~ roc, etc ], you can sub whatever the hell you please. Granted, 10 Ranged Accuracy in this case makes a difference because of the insanely high HNM evasion, but, like I said before, this is a specific scenario. For XP purposes, the +10RNG ACC [doesn't make a whole lot of difference]. You can either spent your time chain 5ing IT++++++ mobs, or chain 5ing IT+ mobs, which go down twice as fast as give you 66% of the XP. I opt for the latter, and I average 6k XP an hour.

[Anakron]

FeralisCallidus, In the "general EXP party situations," where you say /WAR is superior to /NIN, is it true that the /NIN will not generate enough hate to make full (2-3 consecutive shadow-hits) use of Utsusemi?

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by FeralisCallidus
Never said it was Trivial, Spidey, read my posts. What I constantly alluded to was the difference in agility between subs is not enough to justify the loss of Berserk, Attack Bonus or Warcry.

You repeatedly talked about how it was such a small difference, it's less than 4%, you have hundreds of RACC points as it is, etc.

The bottom line is, at your level, the accuracy difference between a /WAR and a /NIN with a Hawker's in sub-slot is MORE than the accuracy difference between an A rank and C rank weapon. Make sure to include that fact next time you're crunching the RACC numbers.

That little tidbit of information puts all numbers you may churn out in precisely the right context. Every point of accuracy matters, period. Or do you think you can convince someone that the difference between an A and C rank weapon isn't that big?

Furthermore, about the levle 75 RNG on allakhazam. I do believe that Level does not justify intelligence [ As blatently proven by the 'Highest level NA RNG' on my server'].

You, sir, are an astoundingly brazen hypocrite.

Not even 48 hours ago, you made a post where you shout your level several times, and essentially proclaim that these lowbies have no clue what they are talking about, because they don't have the leveling experience you do. Then a 75RNG comes on and flatly disputes basically everything you said. Even a 70RNG, who subbed WAR for 62 levels (i.e. longer than you) comes on and agrees (his exact words: "As for HNM fights.. this is an absolute no brainer.. WAR sub is completly useless..").

Now you want to claim that level doesn't matter?



[snip of your rebuttal of Keichan's post... if you're going to dispute her points, have the balls to do so up front. You know where the thread is.]

Secondly, his/her description of accuracy against an HNM is not valid in XP PTs. He/she equipped SEIRYU'S KOTE, which is AGI+15, if i'm not mistaken. If it is true that AGI is to RNGACC as VIT is to DEF, then we can see why it made so much of a difference.

1) 2 AGI = 1 RACC. This is well known. You're just trying to feign ignorance because you don't like the conclusion.

2) Seiryu's Kote is AGI+15, RACC+10

[re: PLDs and Arching Arrow]
Did you take a class in selective reading? It is clearly stated that some PLDs have so much +enmity gear that Arching Arrow won't draw aggro. Does "some" mean the same thing as "most" or "all" to you? Are all tanks even PLD?

Keichan was going out of the way to cite a specific case where /WAR is actually better than /NIN, in an attempt to be informative, instead of just win an argument. Of course, you take that one tiny statement ("sometimes in certain situations, /WAR is better") and run to the bank with it. Didn't you just try to reprimand me for doing the same thing to you, re: tanks pulling? Hypocrisy is apparently standard practice for you.

Ahem, contrary to Keichan's beliefs, most 75 JPN RNGs sub SAM when doing uber HNM fights, since normal arrows won't really damage them~ just give them TP. [ i.e. the gods ]. They generally run around killing things, meditating and turn around to use Arching Arrow [[[[[ NOT SIDEWINDER ]]]]].

You have got to be kidding me.

Let's see, on one hand, we have you, citing third-hand information about what JP RNGs supposedly do when they kill a god HNM.

On the other hand, we have first-hand info from a 75RNG/NIN, relaying exactly what she did when she actually killed arguably the toughest HNM in the game. Let me think about which information is more reliable.

Do you know who Kirin is? Do you know what you have to do to spawn him, or who he summons during the fight? Does it just bounce off of your mind when a 75RNG says, "This is exactly what happened when I fought and killed Kirin"?

[Narru]

You tell him Dan!

Well generally I feel FeralisCallidus does have good points from time to time, but might be a young person cause he gets angry fairly easily at debates...

Here's a quote from another thread:

Originally posted by FeralisCallidus

Nah, that just shows you're retarded and trigger happy.

Bows > Guns ~50.

The ONE piece of knowledge I took from all of this is this quote:

Originally posted by FeralisCallidus

He/she equipped SEIRYU'S KOTE, which is AGI+15, if i'm not mistaken. If it is true that AGI is to RNGACC as VIT is to DEF, then we can see why it made so much of a difference. [ Among other things (nonlinear RNGACC/EVA graph blah blah ]

I must admit I did not make the connection between VIT vs DEF, AGI vs RACC, STR vs ATTK, and DEX vs ACC....

If STR raises your min/max damage by shifting the curve higher and ATTK raises the mean or average. Can the same be said about AGI vs RACC? or DEX vs ACC for that matter? If RACC raises your average ranged hit percentage, and IF AGI shifts the entire curve, wouldn't it be beneficial to at higher levels if you have two pieces of gear:

1) +10 AGI
2) + 5 RACC

#1 would clearly win right? PLD's choose VIT over DEF at higher levels, this is prolly in the same concept.

[Spider-Dan]

AGI and RACC can't have the same relationship as, say, STR and ATK, or DEF and VIT. The reason is simple. Accuracy has a binary result; either you hit, or you miss. You don't get credit for landing part of a shot.

Therefore, the whole concept of raising the curve (e.g. ATK raises the average damage per hit in your given damage curve) doesn't apply. Accuracy is accuracy. For any given attack, there is no difference between landing 95% of a hit (if that makes sense), and 5% of a hit. Both are simply misses.

[PhoR]

reading argumentative posts about which sub is more uber is making me dumber and dumber by the second.
(especially when people use "mathemagic")
So since about every other post on this thread is worthless bickering, I think I'll just spam some smilies.

[greysenn]

Assuming a paladin pulls a set amount of hate across the fight, the only time you can really get ahead is if you "cheat" it at the end with the /nin blink method they're talking about.

While people argue they're doing more damage this way, I can also argue that they're also screwing their paladin out of a chance to get hate back through heals via ghettotank.

I really don't see how this is an issue, or is possible with good paladins later on, as we have rng/war's saying they can't pull aggro even berserked without sidewinder.

As for the whole Acc issue, yeah it's important, but it has a major point of diminishing returns. I'll have to see how well I can hang in 15 or so levels, but right now I'm very happy with /war.

/nin probably does better vs. high IT's just because it's not at that point yet. Personally, I hate fighting high IT's because if they're hard for me to hit, they're even harder for everyone else to hit too. (Not to mention they do jack for damage when they do hit) The fights go a lot longer for a comparably paltry amount of xp.

Narru, given the opportunity to trade between a +10 agi gear, and a 5racc gear, I would take the agility. (Just for the evasion boost as well.) Fortunately, this opportunity dosen't come up much. I don't think anyone will argue that the kote isn't the win as far as gloves go.

3. Rng/War can be used in some situations that would do slightly better than Rng/Nin. Some Pld/Wars have so much Enmity gear that Rng/Nin can not take hate from simply an Arching Arrow. In that case, since a Rng/War can do more damage, they can breech this barrier. (This is refering to the Rng, Pld, Thf setup).

Sounds to me like /war does more damage. Can you apply it in all situations? No. If it -didn't- do more damage though, you would have no need to sub it. Like the thebruce said earlier, mobs don't lie about who's hurting them the most.