Which is the best sub??

[Cometgreen]

That's what is called a "trade-off." Can you say it with me? Trade.off. There's no sub that will make you godly. Each sub has their benefits and their costs. Ninja is better accuracy with less damage; Warrior is better damage with less accuracy. Just like the difference between Mithra Rangers and Elvaan Rangers, imo.

Cometgreen

[FeralisCallidus]

Comet, you obviously have never tried RNG/WAR.

RNG/WAR does at least 20% raw damage per hit than RNG/NIN. Unless RNG/NIN hits at LEAST 20% more often, I don't see an even trade off.

[tonka]

To nitpick, serk is only 3min/5min, or 60% of the time.

+25% damage * .60 = +15% DPS

So an extra +10.5 to +13.5 ranged accuracy from dual wield has to only overcome a 15% DPS to be worthwhile, or very roughly land just 1 extra hit out of every 8. There's also the fact that more hits means more TP, which is hard to pin down into DPS.

It's hard to say, the effect of extra ranged accuracy seems to vary a lot depending on the level of monster i'm fighting.

At least on my server, for rangers above 60 the split seems 3 to 2 NIN to WAR, so for whatever reason NIN seems at to satisfy the high level peeps.

[FeralisCallidus]

to nitpick, serk is only 3min/5min, or 60% of the time.

That is assuming it is only on during battle. If it is used correctly and intelligently (the last 2-3 fights of a chain 5 series) it makes all the difference in the world, since it actually ~DOES~ increase your damage output well over 20 percent in these battles, which is when it is important that you bring the mob down as fast as you can.

Not to mention warcry at level 70, which increases the offensive melee capabilities of your entire PT by 10%. And Atk Bonus Job Trait.

Not sure if people realize this or not, but the majority of offensive 5-Minute abilities are stacked into the 4th and 5th chains.

i.e. Barrage, Sharpshot, Warcry [At level 70] for us rangers, while Berserk was activated at around chain 3. So, in reality, if you have PLD/WAR; THF/WAR and RNG/WAR all using Warcry during the 5th chain, you will bring the mob down that much faster and have that much better a chance at getting chain 5.

Oh, but...it seems the extra 10 ranged accuracy will do that for you. ...Not.

[Peppara]

I think the conclusion of this thread is that:

1. Feralis is an asshole
2. Nin/War are the 2 main subs both with different benefits

[FeralisCallidus]

Thanks for the Flame, Pepp.

[Wels]

Can't comment on /WAR but as for /NIN I can give a short review how I can hit stuff as an Elvaan 62/31 rng/nin.

Stats without food:
(and nothing too fancy gear wise)
AGI: 58+15=73
Ranged Accuracy: 58

Fighting Torama (the cats in Labyrinth of Onzozo), these things usually have high evade, hit rate on the highest level ones is about 80%, however most of my accuracy seems to come from BLM and BRD, once a BLM lands frost accuracy goes up to 90% atleast, same or a bit higher with Prelude from BRD.
If I have both BLM, BRD in party it goes up to very close to 100%.

As an example with brd,blm I can pull of Sidewinders at 100-120% TP with 80% hitrate, at 150% most Sidewinders connect.
Not sure if all mobs later on will have this high evade as these cats, but I am pretty sure these have extra high evade for their level or something.

[Wels]

oh ye forgot to say sharpshot is not included frost+prelude+sharpshot is pretty much = 100% hit rate on 100% TP Sidewinders

[Fjiorea]

if you want to be the perfect rng, you need these want to be the perfect rng, you need these subjobs the perfect rng, you need these subjobs:

war, nin, thf, sam.

war will give you the most power due to the str bonus and double attack.

nin for dual wield and blink.

thf for puller, although nin can be just as good, but the flee will keep the expchain from broken.

sam if you know ur PT can hold the argo from ur constant WS, go for this.

I personally like nin better, it just gives me more of what i need. as a rng you cannot use a shield, which means unless you are a ninja, your 2nd hand will be empty. also blink saved both yourself and your whm's mp.

[Bilus]

i use both depending on PT config

if there is a bard in pt (Prelude) , i sub War

if there is no bard in pt i use nin simply for more accuracy.

and yes prelude makes a big diffrence.

[oozma]

If you take the damage that a Rng/War would take and subtract it by how much damage you put out.. Getting the hate from the mob costs your white mage more MP. With ninja you can block any attacks you might get, and its not true that in a 'good' party a ranger will never get hate. Its very possible for hate to come off the paladin but it most likely wont happen. While subbing warrior you would definatly do a significantly more amount of damage but as i said, you would attract a lot more hate.
overall ninja and warrior subs each have their own advantages and disadvantages, but they come out to be almost equal.

Fjiorea: double attack does not stack with your bow no
damage increase
samurai sub: mostly for soloing. In a party, using that many sidewinders will definatly cause you to get hate, no matter what.
thief..... ninja gives way better agi boosts than thief does..
:sweat:

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by FeralisCallidus
Comet, you obviously have never tried RNG/WAR.

RNG/WAR does at least 20% raw damage per hit than RNG/NIN. Unless RNG/NIN hits at LEAST 20% more often, I don't see an even trade off.

You seem to have forgotten to mention that a Sidewinder that misses does zero damage. Talk all you want about average damage per hit; when you miss a Sidewinder, not only do you get zero damage, most likely you will screw up the MB as well, causing the party to lose out on at least 1000 damage. (700-1000 for WS, 400-500 for renkei, plus magic burst)

No matter your sub, you will miss Sidewinders. /NIN minimizes the number of missed WS. Also, better accuracy = better Barrage. Or are you saying you always land all 5 hits of your Barrages?

[tonka]

if you want to be the perfect rng, you need these want to be the perfect rng, you need these subjobs the perfect rng, you need these subjobs:

:confused:

[FeralisCallidus]

You seem to have forgotten to mention that a Sidewinder that misses does zero damage. Talk all you want about average damage per hit; when you miss a Sidewinder, not only do you get zero damage, most likely you will screw up the MB as well, causing the party to lose out on at least 1000 damage. (700-1000 for WS, 400-500 for renkei, plus magic burst)
No matter your sub, you will miss Sidewinders. /NIN minimizes the number of missed WS. Also, better accuracy = better Barrage. Or are you saying you always land all 5 hits of your Barrages?

Calm down here Spidey.
Are you inferring that +10.5 Ranged Accuracy from an extra Knife will make my Sidewinder somehow many times more accurate? Are you saying it will make my Barrage that much better, because we all know +10.5 is like tripling my current accuracy? Hmm... [ For all you inexperienced players who read this, I am not being serious.]

After Frost, Prelude, and now my Enhanced Sharpshot, this measily 10.5 accuracy has been easily overshadowed by Berserk and the Attack+ trait I will be getting at 60.

Saying that an extra Archer Knife will make me hit significantly more after all the aforementioned buffs and enfeebles is blasphemy =P

[I was in a Boyahda PT at level 55~[EARLY]56 that had a RDM Frosting, BRD Preluding, and Me Arrow-Nuking. I missed a grand total of like 4 Sidewinders in 10k Experience. Ooo, will an Archer Knife cut that down to THREE? Wow, what an increase in damage.]

[Kenki]

Extra accuracy is good when you don't have bard and rdm to boost party accuracy.

Once you get them, Berserk will out shine +10.5 accucracy. +25% power in each and every hit you do is not something you can forget. Valor Minuet will push it to even more powerful.

If rng/nin has 180 accuracy at lv 55 then rng/war has 170 so don't think that rng/war is grimped in accuracy.