PLD/BLU - Early testing and theories

[Lmnop]

Re: PLD/BLU - Early testing and theories

Wasn't there a running joke comic with regards to older FF games in which Warriors had no intelligence (INT)? Anyway, as a spellcaster, WAR is a joke. So in other words, rather than maximizing the full potential of the melee a WAR is capable of, you're limiting with only half of what it can do.

Nice try, but it won't ever come close to even a /MNK. Don't even try to compare it to /NIN which is in a different league altogether.

If I were an asshole, I'd quote you and say:

Reading comprehension is your friend. {Please check it}

...As this is what caused this last page that's attempting to derail the thread. Stay with me, here. This top quote is referring to war/blu DD. And that was never the point of war/blu. That is all. I can guess that you, like most humans, do not want to be put in a situation where everyone is against you and hating your opinion. Hence, I'm not going to press "WAR tanking" as that does not even belong in this thread.

I suggest the rest of the posters follow suit and find another place to discuss our opposing beliefs. One thing to remember is never to use negative statements when discussing different points of view. Things like "your example fails" is negative and makes people want to be meaner to you. When this happens, you find yourself in a position where you wish stronger to be right. Eventually this can escalate to a point where both sides refuse to be wrong in the face of facts.

And we all like each other, right?

[Lmnop]

Re: PLD/BLU - Early testing and theories

If you actually read what I posted and in that particular section, you will note that I said that in comparison, WAR/BLU does not output any more damage than a WAR/MNK or WAR/NIN. I forgot WAR/THF as well, with the burst damage that a WAR/BLU will not approach.

Correct, I messed up. Alas! Being human sucks! I got mixed up with another point you made and created a 3rd, completely unrelated point in my mind, it seems.

[Icemage]

Re: PLD/BLU - Early testing and theories

Please try to stay on topic. If I see any more discussion of WAR/BLU outside of the scope of the original post (comparison vs. PLD/BLU), I'm going to be forced to split this topic, which will be somewhat difficult without losing the context of both discussions.

If you'd like to discuss the merits or flaws of WAR/BLU, I respectfully direct our members to THIS THREAD


Icemage

[Karinya]

Re: PLD/BLU - Early testing and theories

Subjobs can only do so much. What people are saying is that by some twisted logic, practically anyone can tank if they have the proper subjob. Yes, you can most definitely and probably even solo well, but what I'm talking about is being able to do so without much effort at all. I'm not a fan of advocating something that requires too much time and effort for someone to replicate when they can just pickup the appropriate job class and do it naturally.

Yeah, even ninjas can tank if they have the right subjob. What could be more twisted than that? :D

It's obvious that you're not going to be convinced by anything short of a video, if that. The fact that you brought up PLD AF without even looking at the stats on WAR AF is proof enough. Same DEF, more VIT, more HP, almost twice the enmity.

Given that your post is based on your personal experiences with WAR tanks, I can only say that it seems you have never seen a competent, well equipped WAR tank. This is hardly surprising - they've been rare since RoZ - but even if you had seen every WAR/MNK tank that ever existed, that still wouldn't justify such sweeping statements about WAR/BLU. Several jobs play noticeably differently with different subjobs and gear setups and WAR is one of the classic examples. Why wouldn't WAR/BLU be as different from WAR/MNK as WAR/MNK is from WAR/THF or WAR/NIN or WAR/SAM?

Clearly, another point-by-point refutation would be a waste of time. You'll believe it when you see it, or you'll continue to deny it even then; either way, it's not worth arguing about any more.


Edit: Argh. Right as I posted this, a mod shows up and says not to talk about WAR/BLU unless it's a comparison to PLD/BLU. Well, any discussion of a tanking job is implicitly a comparison to other tanking jobs. Or explicitly, which in this thread it frequently has been. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[Slip]

Re: PLD/BLU - Early testing and theories

Getting back to the Pld/Blu part of the discussion here: there's one additional thing that may help with holding hate -> Recasting Cocoon should generate a significant amount of hate since it's such a large buff.

Since it's on a 1 minute timer it's something you can count on it for every fight and probably recast it at least once during the fight too. You can't quite alternate it with Flash but Flash -> Cocoon -> Flash -> Flash -> Cocoon may work fine (with other spells inbetween of course).

On a similar note, Metallic Body might also grab some hate, though getting a 7 second cast off would be tricky except with some luck after a Flash. That'd only be of much use vs mobs that were still hitting too hard with Cocoon up too I would imagine since Cures will probably be play a large role in hate-holding for Pld/Blu.

[Lmnop]

Re: PLD/BLU - Early testing and theories

I think Armando was planning on having lots of fun with PLD/rdm doing Flash >> Stoneskin. And indeed, it's a favorite trick many soloing WHMs do. But PLD/Blu may not get any worth out of it, as it'd take off what? 30 damage from the next attack? But it is cheaper mp-wise than Stoneskin. 19 mp Metallic Body vs 29 Mp Stoneskin. I don't know, since I still haven't seen a steady figure on how much damage Metallic Body absorbs. It may be nice, and maybe not.

Only other thing to say about it is that the long casting time means you may not gain as much hate as you would've by just meleeing, especially since you're prolly eating sushi with this combo.

[Armando]

Re: PLD/BLU - Early testing and theories

Regarding Cocoon: It doesn't seem to generate much hate. Probably around as much as an Utsusemi cast does - enough to turn the mob two people are riding the hate line, but not worth mentioning otherwise.

Regarding Stoneskin: Yeah, I was planning on doing Flash -> Stoneskin as PLD/RDM, but if I'm not mistaken (haven't tested it yet...although I could, if I got someone to go with me to Altepa) Metallic Body's Stoneskin absorbs 40 damage. It's inefficient timewise, inefficient MP-wise (it grants about 2 HP per MP, whereas the average cure grants 4 HP per MP, and Regen I is about 8 HP per MP), and thus inefficient hatewise. In that time, with that MP, I could do about 60-100 damage in swings and spells, without risking interrupts.

Sorry for the lack of new info, been kinda busy this week with college and whatnot. Oh well. On the other hand, once I sell these Mannequin Hands I'll have 1.8 mill out of the 3.4 I need for Haubergeon.

[Armando]

Re: PLD/BLU - Early testing and theories

Small bump, and sorry to disappoint those who were expecting an actual update, but...
I HAVE THE POWER. That is all

Edit: Oh, fun fact: I only succeeded in selling my Mannequin Hands about 4 days ago, and I had to sell my Buckler Earring as well.

[Aeni]

Re: PLD/BLU - Early testing and theories

Yeah, even ninjas can tank if they have the right subjob. What could be more twisted than that? :D

Not to derail the thread any further (lol) but noticed I meant it in general and you know it. SMN/WAR can tank? Tell me how!

[Lmnop]

Re: PLD/BLU - Early testing and theories

Grats Armando! If you were on my server I would've just given you mine 3 months ago. You plan on buying back the Buckler Earring or do you adhere to the principle that you'll cap out Shielding rate with just AF feet and be done with it?

[Armando]

Re: PLD/BLU - Early testing and theories

Grats Armando! If you were on my server I would've just given you mine 3 months ago. You plan on buying back the Buckler Earring or do you adhere to the principle that you'll cap out Shielding rate with just AF feet and be done with it?

Thanks ^^ I'm gonna pass on the Buckler Earring. I still think my shielding rate is capped/close to capped on EXP mobs, especially now with ToAU where it's all about speed skills and mobs will be VT more often than not. Even if it did help, it's only +3 skill, and that is so not worth the 600-700k it's going for (it sells really damned slow, so I settled for 500k.)

Once I get back to having over 100k, I'm just gonna buy me a pair of Spike Earrings, and I'll be set. The only other upgrades I can get are Sipahi Head/Legs/Feet, but the increase in damage won't be significant enough to justify losing that much enmity in my opinion; Assault Earring, which will give me 2 more Acc at a cost of about 1 mill and a second Woodsman Ring, which is pretty much the same thing (although the net cost would be about 700k since I can sell Venerer.) The Assault Earring and Woodsman Ring are certainly tempting, but they're such small improvements over what I currently have, and so expensive, that I'm in no rush to get them.

Now if only I could do something about getting disconnected every 5 minutes...

[Karinya]

Re: PLD/BLU - Early testing and theories

You might consider getting a Jaeger Ring. Free, only 1 less acc than sniper/woodsman and no -def/eva.

Assault Earring can be BCNM'd for if you have the seals, I've seen it drop a couple times from the orcs (which are not too bad but you need two crowd controllers, I used BLM and BRD but that was before BLU which might work too; RDM cannot sleepga under a 60 cap).


P.S. Obviously if either PLD/BLU or WAR/BLU is tanking, the fact that those main jobs have powerful tanking abilities (good hate generation, Defense Bonus, shield skill, high HP) and an excellent selection of armor and shields has a lot to do with it. Cocoon alone won't make you a tank any more than Provoke alone or Utsusemi alone; all successful tanks use both their main and subjob abilities *together* to produce good hate holding and survivability. Unless both your mainjob and your subjob are doing something useful for your tanking ability, you will probably not be effective as a tank.

[Armando]

Re: PLD/BLU - Early testing and theories

Oh, I had totally forgotten about the Jaeger Ring. I don't think I could get enough people to actually take down Dobsonfly, though Thanks for the tip on Assault Earring. I do have lots of seals, the problem is that most of my friends don't XD I'll work something out.

By the way, does the orc BCNM have the same basic flow as the quadav one? Sleep them, and pick them off one by one?

[Aeni]

Re: PLD/BLU - Early testing and theories

By the way, does the orc BCNM have the same basic flow as the quadav one? Sleep them, and pick them off one by one?

Note that Karinya answered this:

(which are not too bad but you need two crowd controllers, I used BLM and BRD but that was before BLU which might work too; RDM cannot sleepga under a 60 cap)

Pretty much, any of those beastmen BCs need some kind of CC, unless you are only facing one opponent. The basic strategy and flow are about the same, with the difference being in prioritizing your targets (Focusing on the most dangerous one and moving down the list - remember, the most dangerous of a group is usually the one that's not so obvious, i.e., support jobs)

[Armando]

Re: PLD/BLU - Early testing and theories

Ah, I feel silly now. Thanks for pointing that out, I'm not sure why my mind failed to connect the dots the first time around.