Paladins and Thiefs and Bards ??

[Ellipses]

Re: Paladins and Thiefs and Bards ??

Since 41, I've always been a fan of picking a RDM and a BRD instead of one over the other. Ballad(s) + Refresh is awesome, and taking turns on Dispel/Finale means mobs don't stay buffed very long.

Communication absolutely is key. Your THF was an ass. I would expect people to understand SATA by that point, but I wouldn't expect anyone to just automatically know who'd be the partner there, especially not without discussing it with the healer too.

Coming at the communication thing from BRD, it's just frustrating as hell having to explain things nearly every single party. I usually don't say anything more than "Does everyone understand song positioning?" at the start, just because if the party does happen to know what to do, it's a huge, huge relief and makes things enjoyable for me. If they don't, it only takes one fight to find out and then I can go into tutorial mode. And then once the tutorial's done, it's all pretty much out of my hands.

[Slip]

Re: Paladins and Thiefs and Bards ??

Communication can work the other way too. Meaning it doesn't have to be the Brd's headache to shuffle everyone around, or the Thf's to setup where people will stand for SATA. Something simple like this can work fine:

Slip> Ok, these Hecteyes have a really nasty Cone AoE.
Slip> I'll voke them off the Brd as he brings them in and then run around behind them to keep them facing safely away.
Slip> Once the fights over I'll run to the mages to catch the resting ballad, no need to worry about me otherwise.

A little patience for those who miss it the first time can go a long way as can a good swift kick for those who are obstinate about not listening.

[Davitron3000]

Re: Paladins and Thiefs and Bards ??

Since 41, I've always been a fan of picking a RDM and a BRD instead of one over the other.

How does this happen? Usually I have to "camp" both jobs just to get one for my
party. Usually when one pops and I send a /tell they have already gotten 10
invites

[Eauijhkuu]

Re: Paladins and Thiefs and Bards ??

PLD, THF, BRD is a positioning nightmare. Usually even when people know what they're doing, an initial SATA prevents getting ballad on at the start of a fight without nailing the thief as well, not to mention due to need to overrun and the initial voke being behind the mob, and then throwing casting and Ranged Attack mobs into the mix, the mob could wind up anywhere. It's just an unneeded headache. In that particular situation, I would pick a competant red mage every time. Of course, if only retard red mages were available, and an excellent bard was also seeking... Well, you get the idea.

...This is a sad excuse as to why these kinds of parties shouldn't be formed more often. PLD, THF, BRD setups have worked marvels for me, being THF.

I don't understand what people get so hung up about positioning for. For THF, we had a problem with squirming Tanks who just wouldn't keep still post 15. Our Job is so technical to positioning, most people don't care much if we should miss a SA or a TA.

BRD is also another job that is dependant upon positioning, although not to a huge extreme.

How do we solve these kinds of positioning issues? Party must meet the needs of their members in order to be successful. Just like RDM never refreshing, or WAR never Provoking. It's all the same - There are certain essential roles that we're required as a party to take control of. Propper Formation is a role that everyone plays.

There's no real problem with this kind of party that I've experienced. Matter of fact, I love BRDs a great deal ever since I've staticed with my PLD friend. Basically, setup will involve PLD being located with back towards Mages, And DD and THF being opposite of Mages and PLD. BRD won't use ballad until SATA has landed on PLD and THF is moved out of range, making sure PLD and mages get refreshed, and DDs get their attack bonuses. I guess I'm just lucky that I'm staticed with a Mithra PLD who can hold hate through any SATA WS that I shoot onto the DD. (Which I think all PLDs should be capable of holding strong hate. Especially with THF. PLD is not a blink tank.)

It's all about paying attention to your party's needs and knowing their roles. I mean...you think you'd understand this post 40. It's all about communication, folks.


PLD, THF, BRD FTW.

Double Post Edited:

Personally, I do not like THFs past 60. DD learn TA when subbing thf at this level and they do better DoT for minimal DMG difference in the WS's. .

Your DD would be so much more effective subbing a /WAR than doing a THF's job.
I mean. Why hurt yourself and your party? We'll still be gaining 100%TP faster than any job post 60 (At least, we should, even with the TP nerf). Not to mention, your /WAR would gain a much faster TP rate. And if you have a BLM MBing each SC, your opposition is blown away very quickly.

Assassin own you all.

But If you wanna handicap yourself, by all means...

[Ellipses]

Re: Paladins and Thiefs and Bards ??

How does this happen? Usually I have to "camp" both jobs just to get one for my
party. Usually when one pops and I send a /tell they have already gotten 10
invites

Sheer stupid luck. I had it happen twice.

[Eauijhkuu]

Re: Paladins and Thiefs and Bards ??

My PLD was happy when He heard he was gonna get RDM and BRD in a party.

...I'm glad he enjoyed the tripple Refresh.

...I was waiting for my Haste. >:/

[Davitron3000]

Re: Paladins and Thiefs and Bards ??

I can't comment much on partying with Bards, because I could never seem to snatch
one up. The few times I have had the pleasure of partying with a bard seemed fine
to me. Even with my low base mp I was able to keep chains going by running back to
where the mages were to get ballad until the next mob came.

I have partied with THF a lot and have to say I love having them in the group.
Anything to make my job easier is a good thing (read: lazy galka). Added hate
on me? {Yes, please!}

[drecan]

Re: Paladins and Thiefs and Bards ??

i love a pt with pld when i play thf. sata and i can sata on the other voker and its a very rare chance that i pull hate towards the other member i'm sataing. i've been in pts with pld-brd-thf and so far haven't had any problems with it. As long as i'm able to get SATA up just before i pull then run back get pld the hate and move fast to the otherside its good to go. sometimes i end up getting ballad but the brd would cast acc and att right after ballad anyways.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Paladins and Thiefs and Bards ??

I don't know about picking a RDM over BRD, especially since you guys get Auto-refresh. I mean, it won't exactly make up for missing Ballad, but a RDM can't exactly give me attack and accuracy boosts, you've got the rest of the party to think about too.

Gravity lowers a monster's evasion and adds safety net when BLM's over nuke, and while RDM has no answer for attack up song, they do have Haste to help melee and the strongest Paralyze (except for NIN?) for mobs. RDM can easily stack half a dozen enfeebs or more on mobs (and three or four buffs on party members when WHM isn't around), while Bard is limited to two enfeebs (and two buffs) at a time, AFAIK.

As RDM25/WHM, I used Paralyze, Dia, Blind, and Gravity. I could have added Poison and Slow, but the Mandies die too fast last night to make the expenditure worthwhile, especially since I was the healer and needed to conserve MP.

The advantage BRD (and COR) is orthogonal; their buffs and debuffs stack with MP based buffs and debuffs with similar effects.

Parties can use RDM x2 for healing/support if nothing better is available, but not BRD x2. I'm a big fan of RDM + BRD in party, though, but I static my RDM25 with a BRD friend, so I'm pretty biased... heh.

[Stromgarde]

Re: Paladins and Thiefs and Bards ??

Aye, RDM+BRD is a great combination. However, in most cases it's also not very fair to the on average two to three parties still idling because they can't find a refresher. Still, more exp for you, haha. Since RDM and BRD buffs stack, it's win win all the way around, although the opportunity cost of another potentially good DD makes it somewhat debatable for overall positive impact.

As to my views on PLD+THF+BRD, while I can understand how with good players it could work, but my past experiences have left me jaded on that particular party formation, sadly.

[Aeni]

Re: Paladins and Thiefs and Bards ??

COR+RDM = mp/tick like you would never believe. Throw in a BRD and BLM with a melee and tank and you're dead set to hit exp/hr like the kind 4x RNG, NIN, BRD parties used to enjoy.

But back to the topic...

I remember a BRD friend that told me this once:

"I have two rules concerning acceptance of your invite to your party. The first rule is paramount. If you got both a THF and a PLD in your party, I will adamantly and politely refuse your invitation. I'd rather go without exp for a year than live an hour of hell. My second rule is I won't party with idiots. Have a nice day."



Anyway, at later levels, multiple DDs gain SATA post-60. So, this is usually the period when a THF's invite rate nose dives. It's not the desirability for a THF that drops as much as it is the availability of "options" that get open up.

[ValisOfValefor]

Re: Paladins and Thiefs and Bards ??

Other night i had an interresting party in the Gustav tunnel, my party lvl was from 41-42.

It was:
Me <pld/war (41)>
Blu/nin (42) X2
Cor/rng (42)
Whm/blm (41)
Blm/whm (41)

The experience was really quite amazing, and yet fun. The Cor would pull and use evokers roll+ corsiars roll, i was gaining about 4-6 mp a tick depending on his rolls (sometimes it got down to 3 but that was rare). The strangest part to the party was i was almost completly self sufficient. And that is rare being an Elvaan pld, with about 157 mp with eating black curry.

The blue mages were destroying the mobs by self scing, and mbing. The Cors slugshots (atleast i think thats what he was doing) did a good amount. Well the thing im trying to get at is that one refresher atleast at my point in the game is very sufficient. its truely amazing whats happend lately with my parties (except with that party with a horrible monk who would spam raging fists, and the rdm who never refreshed me though i asked politely)

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Paladins and Thiefs and Bards ??

the rdm who never refreshed me though i asked politely)

A RDM who doesn't refresh PLD should be fed to [GM]Dave's dragon of choice.

Even a THF pretending to be a RDM would know that.

As a THF, though, I have to say I'm only slightly annoyed if I get hit with a Ballad; it's not the end of the world, really. It's much worse when the WS goes off, I'm waiting behind the tank, and the mob doesn't turn and the idiot melee wouldn't voke... >_< NOTHING irks me more than messing up SATA Viper Bite...

[Thrasher]

Re: Paladins and Thiefs and Bards ??

Thank you IfritnoItazura for understanding, lol. Worst part was that since the monk kept using raging fists i had to conserve my mp for flash. Basicly it was a bad party. But it got me to lvl 43 in that party, but it was really embarrasing because I can usually hold hate off anything

(Doh! accidently still logged onto my bros account This is ValisOfValefor)
XD Thrasher