Paladins and Thiefs and Bards ??

[BizzR]

So a friend of mine, THF, and I - PLD of course - hit level 30 last night. The THF would pull, a warrior would provoke the first time, and the THF would SATA off of me at which point I would take over tanking. It was sooooo easy to keep hate, I'm a Galka and was barely using any MP. A single cure between vokes is all. Granted we were only fighting mandies in Yhoator but we were hitting chain 5 & 6....even would throw in a Smithy or 2 at times.
So my question is will it always be like this if I have a THF in the party? I'm assuming some harder mobs will present more problems...I'm just talking in general. And if so, then why aren't THF jobs more sought after - all I ever hear is THFs have a hard time finding parties. Just seems to me after last night, a thf is like a SUPER hate tool for a paladin and perhaps one of the best.
I also read in a post recently where the creator was asking for Bard advice...the post said never party with a Paladin unless the PLD knows what their doing. Is there special tatics I should use if a Bard is in the party? One of the best parties I've had recently had a Bard...I'd hate to think I could of done something to make him angry.
Thanks for the reading / answering. I usally just search for answers to any questions I have about this game but I haven't found anything really pertaining to this.

[Ellipses]

Re: Paladins and Thiefs and Bards ??

The thing with Bards, in a PLD and THF party, the whole party has to know what they're doing, listen to the Bard, and not get sloppy with positioning at all. Ideally, for most parties, the Bard would be able to hit the melee DD with Madrigal and Minuet, the mages with Ballad(s) and/or Etudes, and the PLD with Ballad(s) and/or Minne/Madrigal/Minuet (whatever works best).

In order to pull that off, everyone has to stand in certain spots in every single battle. And the SATA is going to have to happen fast so the THF can get out of Ballad range. Unless you've got a static, the odds of a party getting it right for more than three fights in a row are pretty slim. It's incredibly frustrating as a Bard to try and do your best for the party, and then have to remind them every ten minutes that they're getting sloppy and out of position. Most of the time you end up with either the THF getting Ballad or the PLD not getting it.

So special tactics if a Bard is in the party? Stand exactly where the Bard tells you to stand, stay there, and help convince the other party members to do the same.

[blobboid196]

Re: Paladins and Thiefs and Bards ??

well ... for the THF, i've heard they have trouble in parties until lvl 15, when they get sneak/trick attack (i don't remember which). i'm just THF14 now, so i can agree with that.

if they have trouble after that point, then i think it's that most folk haven't realized a PAL's best friend is his THF.

[Jei]

Re: Paladins and Thiefs and Bards ??

Usually if the Thf can get SATA on PLD, a huge hate will be established yes.

A little harder part will come when THF needs to SATA and close skillchain mid battle. because the other DD will not always be able to turn the mob to them from PLD. What I did however is to just have THF SATA from the back of that DD. 9 out of 10 the mob won't turn from me And when the odd 1/10 happenned, a single provoke or flash were usually more than enough.

My PLD is only 53, and I'm a Taru by the way. I keep hate by spamming cure.

[Icemage]

Re: Paladins and Thiefs and Bards ??

The problem with THF + PLD + BRD is that it requires coordination. The THF will want to Trick Attack behind the Paladin, which puts him squarely in the range for Mage's Ballad I/II. This means the Bard has to wait until the THF gets out of the way, or throw another song on the THF afterwards to erase the Ballad (and in the mean time, the THF has lost the +ATK from Minuet or some other important boost until then - not a good thing when you're doing a weaponskill).

Thieves and Rangers were my bane when I was levelling Bard due to their tendency to shift positions constantly. Corsairs can't be any fun for Bards (and vice versa, for that matter) for similar reasons.


Icemage

[Murphie]

Re: Paladins and Thiefs and Bards ??

I prefer PLD, THF, RDM, myself. BRD really does offer a lot to any party, but I prefer the direct Refresh of a RDM (after 41), and quite frankly (as has been mentioned already) a BRD in that equation can be a nightmare of logistics if everyone isn't committed to making it work.

[BizzR]

Re: Paladins and Thiefs and Bards ??

Ah ha, I see thanks everybody. It seems that it's just that first SATA we paldins really benefit from. The THF should then move behind the warrior after the mob turns on the paladin for the rest of the battle. At which point Paladins start doing what they do best. In my recent expierence when and if the THF SATA'd again off the warrior the mob wouldn't really look away. The few times it did I just got it back with a voke or cure to the warrior. This only seemed to happen later on in the skill chain when my resources were starting to deplete.

If I understand correctly, the order should be Thf pull, Warrior voke, Thf SATA off Paladin, Thf move to and stay behind warrior, at which point if you have a bard it shouldn't interfere with his songs.

Thanks again.

[DeviousKitsune]

Re: Paladins and Thiefs and Bards ??

I recomend the setup of PLD, THF, RDM. If you have a bard in the mix as well then the Pld can catch refresh and it lowers the absolute need for ballads on the pally. If the thief is in the way I can skip the pld and the regen from the RDM keeps things going.
Now PLD, THF,BRD,WHM is a personal nightmare of mine, unless people listen and everything goes well your party will never be at full strength. I find it rare even in a amazingly well trained party for pally,whm,Thf and brd to play nice together.
Often I will macro a dex etude for the thief when they miss out or have a spell overwritten whenever I have thieves in the party.

[Ellipses]

Re: Paladins and Thiefs and Bards ??

On the bright side, BRD+THF+PLD in a mixed-language party hones your auto-translate skills really well. (My first party as Bard in Garlaige was a French THF, Japanese SMN and NIN who'd never dealt with SATA at all, American PLD and meleeing WHM. Fun!)

And if you can really, really get your ducks in a row, BRD makes a great second-SATA sponge, because on the enmity list we're right below that AFK BST outside the party and halfway across the zone who waved to the WHM on his way through.

As a Bard, I would love to have a PLD+THF+WHM party that could keep from getting sloppy. It'd keep me so much more active and make me feel so much more useful. But the few parties with that set-up I've been invited to have fallen apart pretty quickly, and after ten or so {Song}{Position}{Please check it.} reminders I tend to give up.

[Slip]

Re: Paladins and Thiefs and Bards ??

My static did Pld, Brd, Thf, Whm for a while but then we love torturing our Brd. ("You're raise sick? Wimp! Go Pull like a man!"). Overall it worked out pretty well. Thanks to the Thief using TA -> Dancing Edge on me I was able to cut back significantly on mp useage which made up for not having Ballad on most of the time (the new Pld Auto-Refresh also helped make that work).

Having Madrigal and Minuet helped with hate holding in their own way too, especially fighting VTs where crits and Vorpal Blade can do decent-ish damage.

[FenrirXIII]

Re: Paladins and Thiefs and Bards ??

Personally, I do not like THFs past 60. DD learn TA when subbing thf at this level and they do better DoT for minimal DMG difference in the WS's. Thfs are really use to NIN parties and NINs having less hate threshold, making it easier for a DD to pull hate and set up the Nin+Thf for SATA. As PLD, our hate threshold is so much higher that more often than not its hard to shed hate fast to let the DD to turn the mob. Its so random, sometimes its a matter of seconds, sometimes I have to turn myself into a lifeless doorknob to lose hate, which severely strains the WHM(RDM)'s MP when im not curing myself.

More often than not, its easier if I maintain hate the entire fight instead of counting on someone else to take control temporarily. The only exception is when i do LS stuffs, cause we've got a NIN and BRD and right now NIN has the same enmity+ i've got on, so I feel fully confident in losing hate. He stays at the same level or higher in hate than me, but I am capable of spiking to jump ahead of him when needed. Its a safety net that has rarely ever let us die with a RDM and BRD right behind us, and a WHM+DRK/thf fighting as well.

So all in all really, a THF that knows what he/she is doing will split SA+TA so you don't have to worry about losing hate to a DD, or trying to either. This is mostly post 60 though, when other DD start to match a THF's weaponskill damage. THF dont have DoT like other jobs so they really get pushed to the back burner. The best idea i can see a THF being is for a THF DRK RNG PLD WHM BRD(or rdm). DRK/WAR is the -only- job that can, at will, pull hate and a significant amount of it away from me aside from MNK. This way you know that trick partner will pull hate very quickly and you won't have to worry about hate bouncing uncontrolled. Only the RNG could cause instability in above setup.

[AngryUndead]

Re: Paladins and Thiefs and Bards ??

One of the problems I've noticed with both THFs and BRDs is that they say things like "FORM UP!" or "LINE UP NOW!!!111" and get pissed when you don't know what the hell they're talking about or who they're talking to.

Communication skills are key.

I had a Thief get pissed off at me (58MNK) because I wouldn't stand behind the mob when he said "LINE UP NOW!" There were other DD's in the party and he had no prior arangement with me. Then he gets all huffy at me, and not the DRK too. The DRK has got to have like 50 more Def than me, but thats another story... I've got no problems taking some hits, but use the best tool you have I always say.

So, again, communication is key.

Also, when I'm in a party I can usually grab hate from the tank if the THF wants me to. I had a good party with a thief after that bad one and if it was the middle of the fight I would grab hate and he would SATA off of the PLD. If it was at the end of the fight he would just SATA off of me and kill it. For all of those fights I was the first Voke.

Good formation is also a problem with many parties. Most tanks won't drag a mob back away from the mages once they get hate again... even if they know it has an AOE move. C'mon man, thats just sloppy. Distances and position may not matter much to us ground-pounding knuckle draggers, but they mean stuff to some.

So if you're a BRD or a THF and having trouble, just try and be more clear, and show a little leadership, because as I tell my wife all the time... "I'm not a mind-reader".

[Raydeus]

Re: Paladins and Thiefs and Bards ??

PLD, THF and BRD is a great combo, songs and SATA will make your life so much easier as a PLD, if you include 2 heavy DD and a RDM battles will be fast and fun. At lvl 60+ you are better off getting +acc and +att songs as any DD and if you are using a Gluttony your dmg will be around 50ish (defender on) which is very nice for a PLD.

With a RDM and the Auto-Refresh we get now we can tank without worrying about MP and if you need a little mp boost you can always move where the mages are to get ballad.


Also even though /thf get SATA at lvl 60 their amount of dmg is much lower than a THF's unless they are opening with a SATA sc on you. So THF > /thf most of the time.

[Stromgarde]

Re: Paladins and Thiefs and Bards ??

PLD, THF, BRD is a positioning nightmare. Usually even when people know what they're doing, an initial SATA prevents getting ballad on at the start of a fight without nailing the thief as well, not to mention due to need to overrun and the initial voke being behind the mob, and then throwing casting and Ranged Attack mobs into the mix, the mob could wind up anywhere. It's just an unneeded headache. In that particular situation, I would pick a competant red mage every time. Of course, if only retard red mages were available, and an excellent bard was also seeking... Well, you get the idea.

[AngryUndead]

Re: Paladins and Thiefs and Bards ??

I don't know about picking a RDM over BRD, especially since you guys get Auto-refresh. I mean, it won't exactly make up for missing Ballad, but a RDM can't exactly give me attack and accuracy boosts, you've got the rest of the party to think about too.