About to start up NIN...help?

[Spinnthrift]

Re: About to start up NIN...help?

Nin/Rdm is a party build - but it's often frowned upon.

Full MAB/Int/Haste build, using HQ staves and spamming the wheel to DD/make hate. Assume cost of about 100g every three seconds when making damage.

Note: I really don't have the cash to do this a lot, just sometimes for fun with LS mates. Takes too much money, but the damage is well well worth it for short satisfying bursts.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: About to start up NIN...help?

Nin/Rdm is a party build - but it's often frowned upon.

It's a damage dealer build, and it can be a fantastic DD at Lv.40. Always the top DD at every CoP 2.5 (Mammet fight) I've organized, unless doing a SMN party setup.

Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending how much gil you like to spend), NINs are not normally invited for DD'ing--they are invited for tanking. Tanking in exp parties w/out Provoke is bad idea.

At Lv.51, a player would have to lose TP to continue this style of play; need to match the elemental staves with the Ninjutsu used. By Lv.60, NIN/BLM will outdo NIN/RDM thanks to Magic Attack Bonus II. I've no idea of the same kind of dominating performance seen at Lv.40 would last into the Lv.50+ or Lv.60+ range.

[Spinnthrift]

Re: About to start up NIN...help?

I use it as a tank build, and very successfully when not on high magic resist mobs.

Yup - tp gain is nonexistant from the staves swapping, but the damage output will put me as top DD, and therefore - top of hate. I don't even wear katana's to parties when /Rdm. Staves are just fine.

Yup, on the wheel alone - /Blm will make more hate via damage post 60, but.. and this is the best part.. You get more spells like Blind/Bind/Cure/etc to aid hate control, and fast cast is helpful to lowering Utsu recasts, kinda like a Pld/Nin uses to maintain.. or Pld/Rdm.

My low end Ni wheel at 53 was hitting for around ~140 low end, going up to ~180 damage if I had things like double weather effects. Combined with using Sleep/Blind/Bind - made sure after about 10 seconds into the fight - I was on top of the mobs emnity list. You need to have things like Eris Earring though to swap in on your non-Ninjutsu spells.

And provoke is overrated when your party produces too much damage. I've been in party's (which were soul destroying as a tank).. where I'd voke the mob the Rng had only just pulled (as in he'd hit it on the pull with an arrow) and voke wouldn't turn it to me, even with full emnity gear. Whereas - a Jubaku: Ichi, followed by a ~160 Katon would turn the mob back to me then Hojo > Kuyarami > Bind would cement it (the hate that is, not that bind would stick, nor that I would expect it to.). And the stick/land rates are very very noticeable.

It's a little like - having a Blm/Nin trying to tank if they had enough evasion and gear to get away with taking hits. They can take hate easily, they just can't survive enough... Nin can though, hence why it works.

It is a tank build, and can be a very effective tank in todays world of tp burn if you can use it on mobs that aren't resistant to magic or do reflectga. And there are lots of times people here have posted about tanking without voke... If I remember, Armando said how he did as Pld/Rdm a while back and how successful it was...

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: About to start up NIN...help?

PLD/RDM is probably stressful on the MP pool.

Like /RDM, /BLM would give Sleep, Bind, and Blind as well; you'd only be missing Dispel as far as major enmity tools are concerned. Either way, wouldn't /RDM or /BLM need at least part-time Refresh to keep those spells going without down time?

I can see it work, but Provoke is really nice to have. BTW, I have tanked as PLD/BLM by accident before, and it took a lot of effort to secure the monster.

My understanding is that most NINs find by using good Kanatas, they can do more damage than from the Ninjutsu wheel around Lv.50. With the right set up, I can see the wheel getting to Lv.60 and maybe a little beyond, but NINs get Dual Wield IV at Lv.65, and supposedly very good Katana in the 70's. You'd lose out on a lot of melee DoT by using the Elemental Staves, not to mention the nice spike damage and enmity from Blade: Jin.

Provoke, of course, is another enmity spike. Double Attack and Beserk from /WAR also increases damage output as well.

* * *

The only times where I've seen monsters ignoring Provoke completely right after RNG came back to camp is when RNG pulled with Barrage or Sidewinder or something stupid like that. ._.

Perhaps the RNGs on the forum can tell us more.

[Armando]

Re: About to start up NIN...help?

As PLD/RDM I was successful at holding hate and avoiding damage, but my damage output was even suckier than an ultra-defensive PLD/WAR's. And it requires MP. It would've been fantastic like 2-3 years back, when everyone still played PLD defensively, but these days I wouldn't recommend it. Just stay /WAR and pump out the damage. Kills mob faster and holds hate with pretty much damage and Flash.

As for playing NIN, the only real advice I can give is that the Ichi enfeebles are very mediocre hate. Spend 4 secs (and remain unable to perform other actions for another 3 secs) casting a spell for an amount of enmity that's going to vanish in 5 secs. That's 4 secs you weren't hitting the mob or gaining TP, which probably offsets the enmity you just made anyways.

They're still good to carry around in case you don't have an enfeebler for whatever reason, and you'll want them later on anyways because the Ni versions cast in only 2 seconds. Although the Ni versions are the same hate as the Ichi ones, the reduced casting time makes them much better. Although, Dokumori is hardly important. Slow/Paralyze/Blind are critical to tanking; Poison helps, you'll be just fine without it.

[Celeal]

Re: About to start up NIN...help?

IMHO, to a new player before trying some "non-standard" job combo, start from the traditional combo and do a good job on it first, before trying "new" stuff. In other words, start from NIN/WAR.

If the player is willing to spend the gil on Elemental Wheel, even a NIN/WAR can use it too. From level 40~65 my wheel is doing 80-ish dmg on average. Combine with katana's dmg, the damage output isn't too bad. Without the need of swapping nuking gear, etc, less "blinking" and less headache (especially if you are tanking in the party for 3 ~ 6 hours).

Back to the topic:

Another tip for NIN tank is about party setup and the mob. Imagine the NIN tank is in a "stressful" party. Which is okay until the NIN is tanking in those stressful condition for hours and mentally exhausted, then the performance goes down. How many hours can the NIN tank last before he is worn out is different among players (maybe 2, maybe 5, depends?).

If possible, try to learn how to form your own party. If you join a party, try to communicate with your team members.

[Armando]

Re: About to start up NIN...help?

Edit: Ugh, I hate my internet. Disregard this post.

[Nuriko]

Re: About to start up NIN...help?

Another tip for NIN tank is about party setup and the mob. Imagine the NIN tank is in a "stressful" party. Which is okay until the NIN is tanking in those stressful condition for hours and mentally exhausted, then the performance goes down. How many hours can the NIN tank last before he is worn out is different among players (maybe 2, maybe 5, depends?).

That sounds like me on WHM ... as time goes on, I have more and more trouble focusing on what I need to be doing RIGHT NOW to keep the PT going.

Oh, on another note ... don't look at gear as a non-recoverable expense like the tools are, you'll get at least part of it back once you don't need the gear anymore.

[Spinnthrift]

Re: About to start up NIN...help?

Celeal: Politely put - I had answered entirely on topic until others had said either a: is that a solo build, or b: saying that what I've been explaining as a party build for a while, wasn't or just queried what I meant. Usually that's how most of my posts go.

In terms of actual damage output - 60 Ni spell + 30 odd (assuming a 1 cRatio) per hit, won't match a fully geared for wheel. Especially when you either lose swing speed or casting if you're trying to melee, added to which it's not that easy to get up in damage, and Blade: Jin really isn't all that shiny. I've been topping out at 450's on crits/double attack procs on it, with gearswaps.

Nin/War can use the ele wheel, it's just a lot lot lot less potent. +15% accuracy from HQ staves, +MAB from gear and sj, etc etc... isn't covered by /War, and neither is the Fast Cast.

If you read my first post in this thread, did I state they had to level it? NO. I answered their question, honestly and politely. Have I then subsequently responded to others asking questions that my response has risen? Yes.

When I start telling people from the off, not to go Nin/War, then by all means quote me and say - you're not being entirely straight with that answer or whatever way you wish to phrase it, but until the point where I either lie or give straight out bad advice (which usually my advice is mathematically sound and backed by Wiki/Alla/BG/FFXI online results et all) - stop trying to twist my words into something they aren't. Please. I would be really grateful. Thanks. ^^

[Celeal]

Re: About to start up NIN...help?

I never say it is wrong for NIN/RDM or NIN/BLM, just to be clear

What I am try to say, is, for a new player, do a good job with NIN/WAR 1st, before trying other approach =P

At level 60, I do agree that Blade: Jin and overall katana dmg is not that great yet. It gets better and better at later levels, especially gearing towards VT mobs.