Ethical question: SHOULD San Ninjutsu be put in...?

[Kensaki]

If you want my opinion.

Dokumori and Jubaku ni wasn't added simply because they would be big agro makers.

[Kibagami]

I personally think NIN is a bit overrated. The whole zero damage taken is a bit elusive and depending on 1 spell to tank is not very asuring. I myself have tried PLD,WAR and NIN. With NIN you got this little problem where if your DDs really go all out you will just feel totally useless and maybe want to trhow yourself out the window . PLD has an MP limit. MP bothers me. MP makes everyone slow. Can't pull cause the PLD doesnt have MP or pull at the risk . Not that MP becomes much of a problem later on but at the start it really is an issue. Later on refresh/ballad/darkstaff solve this. WAR is one of those jobs that was so well made that it simply has in it everything you gonna need. In my believe if you can sub NIN efectively to something then surely you can sub anything to it. WAR/NIN: probably the one that gets the most benefith of /NIN, dual wield aint that much till later on starting with viking axes that get outadet and then with joyuse/riddill but in truth WAR by itself has everything it needs ACC+/ATT+ for DD Provoke/DEF+ for tanking. RNG/NIN: Paper thin, reason why they need utsusemi. But it's no really necesary if you know how to pull right. the extra 10 ACC you get off your second archers knife or whatever you use becomes minimum later on. THF/NIN: again...good for pulling but THF/WAR outdoes it in the SATA department. To my eyes /NIN actually limits jobs. THF/WAR and RNG/WAR certainly have more potential than their /NIN counterparts but /NIN makes them safer to play. WAR/MNK can hold hate better than WAR/NIN, WAR/THF has a higher dmg potential on SC than WAR/NIN, WAR/DRK has the highest damage potential in game (not gonna go into specifics on that), then again under certain circumstances you can make WAR/NIN very good (just ask ZQM or Russta ...dammit WAR is too dam flexible to think something wrong about it >_<).

Anyways i think you understand what i'm trying to say. NIN as a sub is mainly to reduce risks. Which in a world where you can't trust no one is golden, but in a static you trust /NIN is pretty much slowing you party down (on RNG and THF...not necesarly WAR but if your RNG is subbing WAR i advise you sub MNK). NIN main is a risk in itself. B4 when i used to play WAR i didn't really care if a NIN was main tank since i could take the hits. Playing as RNG, MNK and DRG lately i see that i cannot take that much dmg anymore and having to hold back on WS dmg is pretty frustrating.

This job should be banned from all those that are incompetent and all those that are too cheap to play it right

[Kirk]

What kind of noob post is this??

Go to the Warrior board if you want to big up warrior. Your post doesnt even have any relevance to the topic!

[Kiyosuki]

Warrior/Ninja is a great job, but its not a replacement for Ninja/Warrior, its in a league of its own. The two have very separate and distinct ways of play and thinking, I thought everyone knew this by now.

Man...the times of the Warriors invading this board telling us how much we suck compared to them, and that they can even blink tank..(even though...who gets Utsusemi Ni for like, 37 levels.)

Now I will respect your opinion to an extent, Warrior/Ninja can be the main tank in a certain kind of way. Its neither the high defense of a Paladin, or the near perfect stalling technique of a Ninja, but rarher something kind of a 50/50 of those two jobs whose strength sort of lies in the middle..rather than in trying to up the other two because you will never blink tank as well as a Ninja, or be able to enfeeble as much or strike as fast, nor will you have as high a defense as a Paladin or the emnity absorbing ability and sheer useness of Invincible. But Warrior's strength comes from the ability to mix those two together, which has its draws in some places and some big plusses in others. And it greatly depends on your party setup. Warrior main tanks tend to not be as party flexible as Paladin and Ninja, which is why they're usually not the first choice for a main tank past 40. Now before 40 I have no quarrel in saying that Warrior/Anything is a superior tank to Paladin's and Ninja's , as Warrior's always have they're durability and balance while Pld's and Nin's at those levels don't have the things that make them tanks just yet (Paladin and more advanced white magic, and the defense boosts. And Ninja with Utsusemi Ni, faster and stronger dual wield with double attack, and enfeebles. Both also don't have they're best equipment options..)

However the moment you start leveling in the 40's you really start to see Pld and Nin pass War in tanking in almost all regards. I know, I've leveled Ninja to my highest job so far and have taken Warrior to the mid 40's. In almost every party I was asked to be a Damage Dealer, however times where I was main tank a Paladin in the next party would always be outtanking me in every way, and playing Ninja outshined Warrior in main tanking (even War/Nin) by a pretty far margin. Now before you bring my race into this, some of those Pld's were Tarutaru's. Now if a a Tarutaru Paladin and a Tarutaru Ninja outdo a Tarutaru Warrior in main tanking, how do you think its gonna be for an Elvaan Paladin, Elvaan Ninja, and Elvaan Warrior? :D

You guys arn't blink tanks, I've said this time and time again, and have been proven time and time again but hey..you gotta believe what you gotta believe.

Instead of trying to a replacement to Ninja's, I think Warrior's that try to be WARRIOR's, and not the other two tanks are the ones that play best.

[Darkedge]

However the moment you start leveling in the 40's you really start to see Pld and Nin pass War in tanking in almost all regards.

I think that throughout this game, there is a best tank at a given level, and the only way to argue with that would be situational.

Nny doesn't say War/Nin is the best tank throughout the entire game, he says that post 59 with Carnage Elegy War/Nin is the best tank, because it is easy to recast Utsusemi AND because WAR is a powerful DD. 2 Axes hitting, for good damage at that creates hate, along with any other JA's a warrior wants to throw in. If the post 59 party doesn't have a BRD, well obviously War/Nin may not be the most effective tank out there.

In certain BCs, for example some CoP ones, Russta has said in his LJ that this game has been out long enough for us to know who the best tanks are and the best tanks are situational. In the CoP missions his party uses PLD tank.

PLD is an MP tank, already different from Nin and War.

Nin and War do tank differently, which is why they are different tanks. War has the ability to DD and tank at the same time, and War is a powerful DD. Ninja tanks in a different way. Nin attacks very often. Low Delay weapons, Dual Weild enhancements, many hits are many opportunities to gain hate. They also have Ninjitsu to gain hate, and we know a Nin using the elemental wheel will get those constant hate spikes.

This thread has been completely hijacked, but to stay somewhat on topic, if Nin had San Ninjitsu, they would be more versatile than Warriors. Warriors can DD and Warriors can tank. Nin, with San Ninjitsu could tank, enfeeble, go battle mage, and do physical (non elemental 8)) DOT, and not just one of those roles at a given moment.

[Kibagami]

My point wasnt WAR pwnz NIN. My point was NIN is overrated in this forums in party situations (Also overrated as a sub...the guys at THF forum got the message...). In ideal setups it's pretty good but in pick up parties this thing can be a nightmare. Anyways going back to topic... SAN isn't in the game cause it doesnt have a real use does it? finshing the Ni line sounds fair but do you really think you need the SAN?

You guys yourself can't decide on what to make Utsu SAN without making it unfair or useless. Adding new spells to NIN isn't like BLM where you just get Blizzard V, blizzaga IV and so forth because ninjutsu isn't one directional. It's multi use, introducing the SAN line involves not only the debuffs but also Utsu and Tonko. If they added Tonko: SAN in the sense that it only lasts longer then well...i doubt ppl would buy it unless it lasted a long long time. Making linear upgrades doesn't seem the way to go. Also remember that a change in one job affects all jobs to a certain extent, they will not just make better utsu cause the players want new spells.

[Omni]

Originally posted by Kibagami
My point wasnt WAR pwnz NIN. My point was NIN is overrated in this forums in party situations (Also overrated as a sub...the guys at THF forum got the message...). In ideal setups it's pretty good but in pick up parties this thing can be a nightmare. Anyways going back to topic... SAN isn't in the game cause it doesnt have a real use does it? finshing the Ni line sounds fair but do you really think you need the SAN?

You guys yourself can't decide on what to make Utsu SAN without making it unfair or useless. Adding new spells to NIN isn't like BLM where you just get Blizzard V, blizzaga IV and so forth because ninjutsu isn't one directional. It's multi use, introducing the SAN line involves not only the debuffs but also Utsu and Tonko. If they added Tonko: SAN in the sense that it only lasts longer then well...i doubt ppl would buy it unless it lasted a long long time. Making linear upgrades doesn't seem the way to go. Also remember that a change in one job affects all jobs to a certain extent, they will not just make better utsu cause the players want new spells.

so basically, youre telling us that all your exp. with a ninja is from you lvl 20 character? please tell me youre not smart enough to post what you have been posting from a lvl 20ish point of view.

first off, -ANY- job played poorly in a pickup pt can be a nightmare. second, until 37, war/nin and nin/war are pretty much in the same boat in terms of usefulness ill agree with that. but as someone else posted, pld and nin really start to shine after 37 (flash, utsusemi ni). if you still feel that war/nin is viable after 37 but before 74, id like for you to go try. go lvl with a war/nin and see how much hell it causes the mages. in 2 rounds of atk, roughly 4seconds. your war will be taking straight up and relying on mages to stay alive. -this- is the difference. pld can cure themselves to ease pressure of mages, nin can use utsu ichi or ni to remain unharmed.

and speaking of back to topic, this topic wasnt about we are ninjas and we want san ninjutsu whine whine. it was a mere discussion about what would the effects be if san was implemented. i know kiyosuki from ragnarok and he doesnt whine/wish about the crap you think we're tlaking about. you swear as if we have anything to do with this development process anyways. its just a simple 'what if... if so, how?' discussion, just like -every- other forum when ppl discuss possible changes to their job. these discussions mainly show how ppl really enjoy the job they play and actually like to brainstorm ideas, mainly for the sake of conversation and insight.

ive seen you post in other forums before and you tend to ramble about off topic issuses as well as incoherent ideas. we'd really appreciate if you put in the time to think before you speak. thanks.

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Omni-Ragnarok
ive seen you post in other forums before and you tend to ramble about off topic issuses as well as incoherent ideas. we'd really appreciate if you put in the time to think before you speak. thanks.

Aww have some compassion Omni The poor guy may be suffering from ADD :sweat:

[Omni]

Originally posted by Kirk
Aww have some compassion Omni The poor guy may be suffering from ADD :sweat:

yea, i cant help it. im ninja and i flip out and kill people ALL THE TIME!

[Kibagami]

omg the old: your avatar says your lvl 20 you don't know shit thing again >.<

I never update that shit.

And the post topic says: ETHICAL QUESTION... SHOULD SAN NINJUTSU EXIST?

I hope you can read. ETHICAL QUESTION. I say there is no need....i dont care if ppl started making up new ninjutsu...the post says: SHOUL THEY PUT IN THE SAN LINE. It doesn't say: what ninjutsu would you like to see?

And yes ive played PLD,NIN and WAR. Ive played all the dam jobs to a certain extent (a minimum of 20lvls per job) and in my PERSONAL view of the game, ppl squirt over NIN like it's gods gift to FFXI. Where i find it normal. Now i'm not gonna mention anything else cause i rumble off topic.

If you doubt i actually have lvld past 20 i'll give you a worldpass to kujata and you can see me coming in and out of the moghouse with all my jobs.

How long have you played omni? Remember the time no one knew what to do with NIN? I remember i was one of the first ever WAR/NIN in kujata liked by JP. Then again i switch jobs too often to keep a stable reputation. Oooops I missed the topic again! dam me and my ADD.

[Omni]

Originally posted by Kibagami
omg the old: your avatar says your lvl 20 you don't know shit thing again >.<

I never update that shit.

And the post topic says: ETHICAL QUESTION... SHOULD SAN NINJUTSU EXIST?

I hope you can read. ETHICAL QUESTION. I say there is no need....i dont care if ppl started making up new ninjutsu...the post says: SHOUL THEY PUT IN THE SAN LINE. It doesn't say: what ninjutsu would you like to see?

thats nice, can you try to remember what you posted? (hint: scroll down ) theres a reason why i asked that.

And yes ive played PLD,NIN and WAR. Ive played all the dam jobs to a certain extent (a minimum of 20lvls per job) and in my PERSONAL view of the game, ppl squirt over NIN like it's gods gift to FFXI. Where i find it normal. Now i'm not gonna mention anything else cause i rumble off topic.

i dont think anyone here was proclaiming nin to be the 1 and only answer to tanking. honestly, i feel you get more worked up over it than we do. (read quoted text ) ninjas dont pose any sort of threat to war, i mean if you were a fulltime pld i can understand why you be so upset and anti-nin but, youre not.

If you doubt i actually have lvld past 20 i'll give you a worldpass to kujata and you can see me coming in and out of the moghouse with all my jobs.

How long have you played omni? Remember the time no one knew what to do with NIN? I remember i was one of the first ever WAR/NIN in kujata liked by JP. Then again i switch jobs too often to keep a stable reputation. Oooops I missed the topic again! dam me and my ADD.

5 days after na releaes. no, i already knew what i wanted to do with ninja. i already knew that ppl used ninja to tank since my first few days on this game.

gj on being the first war/nin na liked by jp! that must been some census u took. i mean you actually knew all the jps?! and you got them to tell you how they personally felt about you? geez.

[Faranim]

I didn't fully read all the posts in this thread but I need to say this because appearantly people don't know it:

NIN is already strong enough.

Level 75 NIN can solo many things that other jobs can't even dream of soloing. Friends of mine have lost 10k+ exp in Dynamis runs and have solo'd all of that exp back within 3 days of farming time. No other job in this game can do that.

Jubaku: Ni is the only spell which I would like to see added.

If you are a Ninja and won't admit to being overpowered, you obviously aren't a good ninja.

Edit: Sorry, I meant Jubaku Ni. My NIN is only 37 and I don't remember the order in which you get the enfeebles.

[LionhartPLD]

Originally posted by Faranim
[B] Friends of mine have lost 10k+ exp in Dynamis runs and have solo'd all of that exp back within 3 days of farming time. No other job in this game can do that.

uh; bst, rdm, most things with /nin.

Kurayami: Ni is the only spell which I would like to see added.

uh I think you mean Jubaku: Ni, because Kurayami: Ni is in fact all ready in game o.o;.

And yeah, were overpowered :X

[LionhartPLD]

Originally posted by fyrewyre
I also think SE set up nin so that the work the same way as ninja back then used to work.

hahahahahahaha

[Gokulos]

Bst doesn't count here ;p

As for the topic I don't want to say much because my nin is only lv 12 But still I think they should get those last :Ni... Jubaku was it?(Not good with names^^ And Utsusemi:San but on lv 75.
Like someone said when you get Ninja to 75 you actually get uselles if you want to hunt HNMs... Our LS use Ninjas only at couple of NMs and rest are for PLD. I know its somehow because we have more PLDs at the moment and sometimes we lack Ninjac but even if they are there they are mosltl support tanks. Another thing is I thknk we favorise PLDs too much too