im tried of people saying SE doesn't like ninja tanks

[Kesai]

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
No no, you're right, what the hell was I thinking... NIN doesn't need shadows to tank, Utsusemi is just a way to show off. NIN can tank IT++ mobs with no shadows just fine and hold aggro off of all DDs with Defender + Phalanx rings!

After all, Madden's profile says he is level 75, so all those times I saw NIN tanks get beat up without shadows were some sort of mistake. Of course NINs don't rely on shadows... this is why they rarely need to cast Ichi after 37, because their Evasion is just that good.

On a lower IT mob it's not unusual to just cast utsu: ni. Ninja blind and slow do wonders, along with the odd parry here and there. Only on the IT+ mobs do I find myself constantly cycling between ni and ichi.

[Kesai]

oops double post >.<

[Madden]

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
No no, you're right, what the hell was I thinking... NIN doesn't need shadows to tank, Utsusemi is just a way to show off. NIN can tank IT++ mobs with no shadows just fine and hold aggro off of all DDs with Defender + Phalanx rings!

After all, Madden's profile says he is level 75, so all those times I saw NIN tanks get beat up without shadows were some sort of mistake. Of course NINs don't rely on shadows... this is why they rarely need to cast Ichi after 37, because their Evasion is just that good.

I never said Ninja could tank without blink all the time. You the one keep posting that Ninja will NEVER have any shadows to help. Even if some AOE would strip away Ni just after casted just have the WHM to cast Flash and let you cast Ichi and you fine again. Dont know what kind of PT's you been in but if you have 5 other players that like to xp like a team I dont really see this as the end of Ninja as a tank.

[Ozymandis]

Originally posted by Madden
I never said Ninja could tank without blink all the time. You the one keep posting that Ninja will NEVER have any shadows to help. Even if some AOE would strip away Ni just after casted just have the WHM to cast Flash and let you cast Ichi and you fine again. Dont know what kind of PT's you been in but if you have 5 other players that like to xp like a team I dont really see this as the end of Ninja as a tank.

You really expect people in a pick-up party to be that much on the ball? As a WAR/NIN I could benefit currently from that strategy, but it's rare for anyone to recognize this.

Also, you don't want your WHM casting too many Flashes, for obvious reasons :sweat:

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
I guess we'll see what everyone's saying in a month, won't we?

I think this update will actually be on the 13th, so we only have a couple of days.

[LawDawg]

I'm not going to completely agree with Spider-dan, but he has a point. Depending on the situation, a mob COULD spam a WS every 5 seconds... a gob once did 3 bomb tosses, almost in succession. Why is this? I think a good explanation is this (posted in WHM forums):

===
1) We gain 5% TP when we are damaged by elemental spells while they gain 10% TP.

Note: When we get 0 damage, we don't gain any TP. Neither do they.

2a) When their HP is > 20%
They randomly use their WS when their TP >= 100%.

2b) Whe their HP is =< 20%
They use their WS whenever they store 100% TP.

3) How they gain their TP from our physical attacks?

[TP(%) given] = [TP(%) we acquire] + 3%

Note: Damage > 0

For example, if I get 6% TP with my sword, they get 9% TP from my attack.
===


So basically, mobs gain TP from our attacks MUCH FASTER than we gain from their attacks. So in about 15 hits, the mob could have 100% TP, and depending on how unlucky you are, that could mean WS occuring fairly frequently. Just some food for thought... continue on~

[Spider-Dan]

Yeah, it should be patently obvious to anyone that's played the game that mobs spam TP attacks. If they didn't, why is the recast time of Dispel vs. Finale ever mentioned?

Pretending that they won't use them that often is a pretty transparent smokescreen. The question is not, "will the mobs spam TP attacks?" (because we all already know they do) but rather "will all the AOE TP attacks strip shadows?" and "is NIN a good tank with no shadows?"

[Biterman]

Originally posted by Madden
I never said Ninja could tank without blink all the time. You the one keep posting that Ninja will NEVER have any shadows to help. Even if some AOE would strip away Ni just after casted just have the WHM to cast Flash and let you cast Ichi and you fine again. Dont know what kind of PT's you been in but if you have 5 other players that like to xp like a team I dont really see this as the end of Ninja as a tank.

Ozy has it. Put yourself in the shoes of the WHM that needs to cast Flash while you cast Ichi, or the DRK/BLM that has to Stun. Who would you pick, a PLD or a NIN? When people have to go out of their way to fit to your job needs you become 2nd option.

Also, for the Nth time, Flash and Stun are not reliable to cover your ass when you need to recast Ichi. They both have 45 second timers, thats 15 more seconds that either of your Utsu and they add unnecesary hate to your mages.

[Cade]

Also, for the Nth time, Flash and Stun are not reliable to cover your ass when you need to recast Ichi.

It works for most. Best parties I've been in are the ones that actually pay attention for when I have to cast Ichi and follow quickly with stun/flash.

They both have 45 second timers, thats 15 more seconds that either of your Utsu

Ni is 45sec recast.

they add unnecesary hate to your mages

Meh... depends on the mage really. Whm, not so much. Blm, probably if they're chain casting, which ALOT of blm like to do.

When people have to go out of their way to fit to your job needs you become 2nd option.

This is unfortunately true.

[Bigbird]

Until we find out exactly which AOEs strip shadows, then it doesnt make sense to argue about how useless NINs will be, for all we know it will only affect a small amount of mob TP moves. However there seems to be a group of people who Do not want to play NIN as a tank, these are the main ones who also spread false rumors about subtle Blow when it was announced (they were saying S.B. would give the Nin less hate, therefore not a viable tank) I mean some people are going so far as to say NINs will be the New DRGS, lmao, common, chill out, i dont believe it will be THAT bad.

I have 4 points for you guys to consider, and why i believe It will not be soo bad.

1)Remember that mobs have TP moves and they also have Abilities which do not have anything to do with TP at all.
For Example, I know from experience that Manticores "Deadly Hold" is a TP related move , however, "Riddle" is not a TP related move. You can Test this by tanking a manticore as NIN and not Attacking it, even though you dont hit it, or it doesnt hit you, it will still do this move(i was bored while Trying to get Narashima to pop ~.~) This leads me to believe that whatever moves that we have to look out for that strip shadows are not the spammable type(or Abilities). This is just my Opinion.

2)When a NIN is tanking, the mob will do less TP moves because of a) Sublte blow and b) Mob does not gain TP when it hits your shadows. So in a Typical NIN party(3melee 3 mage lets say) the mob will only be gaining TP from the Attacks of 3 melee. It is still alot of potential TP gained (at least 3 times as fast as we gain TP) but significantly lower then with a PLD tank.

3)For those who dont have experience Tanking as a Ninja at higher levels, have you seen how we deal with -ga spells?
As you know they already remove all shadows. The way its handled is you begin casting your next set of shadows after the -ga move is initiated so you regain your shadows as soon as the -ga move is completed. With Haste Activated, Slow(Rdm or NIN debuff) and +50ish evasion, i can pretty much tank with Only NI, so Ichi is 95% of the time readily available. IF anything this patch will just make me Depend ALOT more on NI>Ichi>NI to tank, instead of just NI >NI. /cry

4) My last thought about this is simple and short, at higher levels mobs usually die in no more then 3mins, sometimes even seconds if we pull off a good skillchain + magic burst, especially when you begin to do level 3 Renkeis. As you get higher and higher in level, the mob gets even lesser chance to do its TP moves, just cause of the sheer speed of the kills.

[Saedius]

Wow... took how many pages for someone to mention:

a) Stun... if you see the nin taking hits and don't cast this, you have only yourself to blame

b) Haste... recast time for both Utsu's is <45 sec if they're hasted... whm or rdm who don't haste a nin are just asking for it (for lower lvl rdm and whm, haste the tank regardless of what they are FIRST).

c) if you've never seen a nin tank only with Utsu: Ni then you haven't seen a nin w/ enough evasion gear. so now they might have to use Ichi more... damn...

d) the right kind of mobs ALWAYS make all the difference. plds will ALWAYS be better tanks for some kinds of mobs (read fast attack). nin will be better for others (read massive dmg special attack) that AOE WS thing is really going to hurt against crawlers and beetles... oh wait... no it really wont

the one thing that this might do is hurt NIN at very high lvls (Bones and Weapons both have pretty good AOE WS) but im not sure about this (not high enough lvl) and Utsu: San (if implimented) might offset this

Bottom line, ninja will get more difficult to play for both you and your party, i.e. more focus on utsu juggling and you will have to debuff even more religiously, but the NIN tank is by no means dead.

[bladecloud]

IMO this nerf is a little overboard..

How would PLD's feel if SE removed Cure4 from their spell list :/

[Ozymandis]

Originally posted by Biterman
When people have to go out of their way to fit to your job needs you become 2nd option.

Well said.

Originally posted by Bigbird
2)When a NIN is tanking, the mob will do less TP moves because of a) Sublte blow

This is a bit off-topic, but it seems to me that Subtle Blow is ineffective for whatever reason. Chains like Spinning Axe -> Raging Fist and Sidewinder -> Rampage will usually end in a mob responding with a TP move. Why, I don't know... maybe it doesn't help with WS TP?

[Matkun]

Originally posted by Ozymandis

This is a bit off-topic, but it seems to me that Subtle Blow is ineffective for whatever reason. Chains like Spinning Axe -> Raging Fist and Sidewinder -> Rampage will usually end in a mob responding with a TP move. Why, I don't know... maybe it doesn't help with WS TP?

Well, When we get hit, we get 2% TP per hit. So without subtle blow, Raging Fists can at max give 10% TP, and Asuran at max can give 16%.

If Subtle blow works in the way it should (ie: 1% TP per hit since Ninjas/Monks attack twice for everyone else's 1 attack), then at max with a chain like Spinning Axe -> Raging fist you could give the mob 12% TP (6% if Subtle blow works to halve TP given)

or with Sidewinder -> Rampage, 24% TP (16% if Subtle Blow halves TP given).

I just think that the AI is programmed to save up TP to a certain percentage (higher then 100%), and not use it until then unless of some situations where it has just received a very damaging attack, or some other possible conditions.


Of course this is all observed from Ballista and us getting hit by Mobs.. It could be a different amount of TP that is given to a mob when we hit it..

[Bigbird]

Originally posted by Matkun
[B]I just think that the AI is programmed to save up TP to a certain percentage (higher then 100%), and not use it until then unless of some situations where it has just received a very damaging attack, or some other possible conditions.[B]

That is Exactly the way i think about it as well. Just because the Mob reaches 100% TP doesnt mean that it will nessesarily use its TP move. And as you said, Many many times, the mob is programed to use its TP after a big Renkei, or at a certain % of HP remaining, or other Random conditions that we may not know about yet. (cactuars have only 3 moves, needle shot, 1k needles, and Regen. At nighttime you have a 50% chance it will use 1k needles at daytime you have 33% chance it will use 1k needles. Why? Cause its' Regen Ability can only be activated during the daytime ;-) ]

I played beastmaster way too long me thinks...

[Ozymandis]

I wish I could link to it, but just today I read a post about how mob TP works. I believe it said they get a third more than what we get in return, and double what we get for elemental magic. And I'd bet money that they get full TP where we get 1 TP in additional WS hits after the nerf ><;

Whether this is right or not, I don't know, but I'd tend to agree with it. Mobs definitely get a lot more TP than we do... many tend to spam their abilities.