PLDvsNIN

[l)@RK-l)EVIL]

thf
war/nin
nin/war
blm
blm
rdm


this pt was too much fun i was the thf and we kill things fast the ninga do very good damage like 3xpld damage
the war provoke first then he use his ws then i use viperbite to the ninga (500 damage my equipment was godly )
then both blm MB then ninga lose hate :p they cant keep hate from double MB then war vok/warcry to get hate back)


i love war/nin nin/war and thf control the hate between them too much fun to play thf :p



what i want to say 90% of the ninga i pt with have problems to keep hate (NA ninga) if they was the main tank and without thf in the pt but 90% of the (NA pld) have no problems to keep hate all the fight

thats why NA pt invite pld more than NIN i know many ninga suck in ragnarok :mad:

[Deedlit]

l)@RK-l)EVIL, I rarely do the whole grammar police thing, but it's Ninja, not ninga. Was driving me crazy ><

[Loial]

NIN doing that damage and then having a RNG unload Slug Shot for 1000 folloing by Asuran Fists for 1000 is hardly enough to hold aggro without using Provoke, Ninjitsu and Warcry and then still nuking till it finally turns back.

My point is that doing more damage creates more hate... thus making your job easier. Since it seems necessary to point out that holding hate is cake with a PLD... well there is another chip in NIN pile of having an "easier" time.
So... NIN use Provoke...Ninjitsu and Warcry...
and PLD use Provoke... Cure X and Sentinel...

So, you have to use hate tools, just like PLD. Different means, same result.:spin:

Lv75 Ninja, Lv63 Dragoon, Lv37 Warrior, Lv32 Samurai, Lv25 Bard, Lv15 Monk Lvl1 Paladin

Sorry, but read above. You aren't a PLD, you don't know what you are talking about.

I could just as easily say:
Provoke, Count Shadows, recast, Provoke
in the PLD forums. And all the PLD who have no idea about NIN would agree

I hope readers have learned something from this thread. The dynamics of NIN tanking are different from the dynamics of PLD tanking... however, both jobs have to adhere to the same 'rules' that govern hate... and having the simple attitude of combining all of the tools PLD use into just "Provoke and a few cures" is ignorant.

If all PLD does is cure and Provoke, then all NIN does is count shadows... can you count to 6? Then you can be a blink-tank too!

That statement sounds dumb, no? Just like:

All PLD has to do is Provoke and Heal a little

[l)@RK-l)EVIL]

Originally posted by Deedlit
l)@RK-l)EVIL, I rarely do the whole grammar police thing, but it's Ninja, not ninga. Was driving me crazy ><

hehe true its ninja but we call them ninga here :p

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Loial

I hope readers have learned something from this thread. The dynamics of NIN tanking are different from the dynamics of PLD tanking... however, both jobs have to adhere to the same 'rules' that govern hate... and having the simple attitude of combining all of the tools PLD use into just "Provoke and a few cures" is ignorant.

You still dont get it. Its not about hate! >< If hate were the only thing ninja had to worry about then yes, your argument is valid. But ninja has to worry about hate and keeping up Utsusemi to "STAY ALIVE". Utsusemi isnt another hate keeping tool. Its our armor, its what makes us able to tank. The equalivent would be for your armor to automatically unequip every four hits, and then you having to scramble to put it back on again before the next hit. Thats the issue, thats the difference. Until you recognize that you'll never understand what it takes to blink tank. To you the challenge of tanking is getting the mob to attack you. For us its not only getting the mob to attack us, but being prepared so when it does attack, it does not slaughter us.

[Navia]

Yeah PLD do have it easy, 'Cover' is a pretty good tool to save a ranger that lets a sidewinder loose at the start of a fight.

Provoke+Flash from a pld beats out provoke+Hojo:Ni+Kuriyami:Ni

PLD I was in pt with last night (omg pld and nin in same pt, what is the world coming to) didn't even do 20 damage a hit to terror pugil, monster stayed glued to him because he was getting beat to a pulp then using CureIV and using spirits within

Major PLD weakness is when you get a totetote++ high evasion monster that has the PLD burn all his mp and the mages start dumping cures on him to keep him standing.
PLD standing there whiffing, getting his butt kicked losing all hate so I end up blink tanking it because it starts to eat the mages curing the PLD

However, PLD has easier time keeping hate 99% of the time because sentinel/shield bash/cover/flash are pretty much instant 'snap aggro' abilities that can all be fired off in quick succession.

Ninja can chain elemental ninjitsu, throw stars, recast enfeebles to build back a similar arount that the above paladin skills do, but it takes much more time - ninja aren't known for their ability to yank aggro back easily if the BLM gets nuke happy.

Ninja relies on their lead of builtup hate because they havent been hit at all, lose your rhythm, get smacked hard a few times and you can have problems getting back hate if you pt with jobs like RNG and have no THF around to fuidama.
Utsusemi although creating alittle hate isnt a hate tool like someone else says, its our armor so I dont die to terror pugil in 1 screwdriver or 4 hits :sweat:

Most NA dont invite ninja to tank - they always take the safe bet with PLD, nearly all my pt invites are from JP.
PT can get by with a mediocre paladin that just vokes and does cureIII sadly, which is why PLD are considered 'easy' to play.

[neelon]

Mediocre Paladin is easy to play, good Paladin isn't. A mediocre Paladin isn't a good Tank though.

Both classes are good Tanks, can't we just accept that? Easy or not, that's an opinion.

[Stanislav]

Originally posted by neelon
Mediocre Paladin is easy to play, good Paladin isn't. A mediocre Paladin isn't a good Tank though.

Both classes are good Tanks, can't we just accept that? Easy or not, that's an opinion.

Ninja isnt a tank.. It can be played like a tank

[neelon]

Originally posted by Stanislav


Ninja isnt a tank.. It can be played like a tank

I didn't want to imply a Ninja is "just" a tank, but when a commited ninja plays as a blink tank, it IS a good tank.

[Sadeira]

coming from my perspective, i think both nins and plds are equal provided they have the right tools to do the job. of course the disadvantage with nins is that they must buy their hate holding tools and they only have one kind of +enmity gear (arhat's gear) whereas hateholding tools is built into the job and pld af and adaman armor set is all about the +hate.

my main concern between pld and nin is who can take the hate back from me after a good skill chain. i am indeed capable of ripping the hate from either on a good skill chain. when i get into a party, the skill chain of choice is a three part skill chain ending in a level 3 renkei, for example sidewinder > dancing edge = distortion > swift blade/blade: ten = darkness. i WILL burst off of distortion AND darkness (water 4 off of distortion and stone 4 off of darkness) for a ridiculous amount of damage...which results in my pulling the hate (even with the thf (or thf subber) putting the hate back on the tank). pld can flash and provoke to take the hate back, but nin also has to provoke and may have to use 1 or 2 ninjutsu to take the hate from me.

then there's tp gain. i usually get in parties that include the tank in the renkei so we can perform level 3 chains. plds gain tp faster than nins (because damage adds tp). nins don't get hit so they don't gain tp as fast. sure they have 2 weapons but if you don't have the melee accuracy then you're not getting tp as fast.

oh yeah, there's also the kinds of mobs you fight. in the boyahda tree you fight mobs with nasty aoe or are just plain nasty (darters and skimmers with cursed sphere, and processionaires with poison breath, and spiders with sickle slash). last i checked aoe takes cancels blink completely so the nin will have to recast utsusemi ichi and ni and get hit the whole time while doing so and maybe interrupted while casting. pld doesn't have to worry much about cast interruption when casting flash. and spiders...ugh. i've been in parties where we fight bark tarantulas with both plds and nins (different parties, same level tanks). nin gets caught without utsusemi and gets hit with sickle slash for death (1200 damage). pld gets hit with sickle slash for about 800.

i think both make equally good tanks, just depends on the party leader's preference. at low levels, there's definitely less healing on the nin but as you approach 65+, the differences sort of balance out at higher level. and both tanks have to deal with any status effects (paralyze, silence, poison, petrification) dished out by mobs.

i don't know if my post is helpful, it's just my perspective as a player who most often rips the hate from either.

[Tab Key]

Originally posted by Loial



You "say" you respect PLD, but you just "disrespected" PLD with such a comment. NIN can't say they work harder than PLD. PLD can't say they work harder than NIN.

Why? PLD aren't NIN, NIN aren't PLD. If there were enough people out there who were both 75 PLD and 75 NIN... then they could compare. But still, you'd need a rather large sample of people who fit that criteria to put this to rest.

I'd put $10 that if you lvl'd ur nin to 50 (I'll be generous and give you 13 extra lvls to get your tanking rythm down), you will see the HUGE difference from what a nin tank has to do on 1 mob compared to a PLD in the 60's.


I'm not saying PLD is an easier job than NIN tanks, I'm saying PLD is no where near as tedious and engaging as NIN tanking.

[Kiyosuki]

All you Ninja's know..we could one hit KO all the enemies we fight with our insane Ninja powers.

We just....don't...because we're....going easy on the enemy..

Heh, yeah thats right. SE has to hold us back or we'd be one man pt's. :spin:

(I'm a little tired at the moment)

[Yuanlung]

When I am playing my WHM sub, I loved NIN tank. There is little need for me to cure, hence very little aggro. All I do is status recovery, enfeeble, and mend the occasional wound from AoE. I never draw aggro, and I always have more then enough MP.

From a damage dealer's point of view though, I definitly perfer PLD over NIN when I play my BLM. There is no contest in the department of holding aggro. Even with the NIN spamming shiriken and ninjitsu, and a THF doing fuidama, PLD still gets more hate.


Also, PLD isn't just sitting there doing nothing either. They need to actively use their hate-grabbing skills, cure, flash, provoke, shield bash... etc. Also cover the over nuking ranger/blm when the need comes.

They might be able to look away for 30 seconds after the aggro is established, until the next provoke, but their job isn't as simple as some thought it would be. Our PLD dozed off for a min once, towards the end of a late night session, and it was bad. He lost aggro very quickly to our ranger and myself :sweat:

[leii]

Originally posted by Kiyosuki
All you Ninja's know..we could one hit KO all the enemies we fight with our insane Ninja powers.

We just....don't...because we're....going easy on the enemy..

Heh, yeah thats right. SE has to hold us back or we'd be one man pt's. :spin:

(I'm a little tired at the moment)

of course. just use tonko, sneak behind the enemy and slash their throat.

[Taoist]

Originally posted by Stanislav
NIN deals a lot of damage compared to a PLD... Blade: Ten has done 800 damage for me on a IT monster once I would like to see a PLD do that.

Um... sort of off-topic, but I didn't see anyone catch up on this. I am pretty sure "Spirit's Within" can do that kind of DMG with near-full HP + 200~300% TP. Meh. Correct me if I'm wrong.