PLDvsNIN

[Omni]

you must remember that having 2 weapons it adds the delay from both weapons. at lv70s VS IT mob in leveling party: NIN hits about 0~30 every hit. They very often hit 0s. Paladin hits about 0-30 every hit with Defender. 30-60 without.

not quite, u add the delay from both weapons and multiply it by a coefficient depending on which dual wield you have.

Dual Wield Level Coefficient:
LVL 10 = (1st weapon delay + 2nd weapon delay) * 0.90
LVL 25 = (1st weapon delay + 2nd weapon delay) * 0.85
LVL 45 = (1st weapon delay + 2nd weapon delay) * 0.75
LVL 65 = (1st weapon delay + 2nd weapon delay) * 0.70
* Additional -0.05 with AF


so, with 2 katanas with 227 dly, u do not have a effective delay of 454 dly. if you had a ninja at 70+ that would mean your effective delay would be 295.

every pld that ive seen and pt with have never outdamaged me on a hit to hit comparison. i usually do 1.5 to 2 times the dmg of a pld when landing both hits. granted that im lvl 51 and maybe at 70+ theres some drastic change in dmg and all of a sudden plds can hit 30-60 w/o defender on... or maybe someone is embellishing a little bit.

What exactly is the problem? Does everyone want to be so unique and special that they can't handle a little bit of competition? Or is it insecurity in your own abilities as a tank?

are you insecure? from all the forums i read, its always been plds that come into the ninja forum and try to make themselves feel better by boasting how well they tank. we can care less about plds. were you trying to make a point or further point out to all of us your insecurity as a pld? we mind our business you should mind yours.

[X Launcher]

I'm not going to lie. At Lv. 17 as a Ninja, I'm still but a flegling genin. I should say that I've learned a collosal amount from lurking about this forum, especially from posts by Mitsu and Navia. Anyway, let's move on with the show.

PLD learns several abilities as it levels up, that I will admit, mainly because it's true. But I can't say that learning more abilities changes the playing a great deal. It's like what all SAMs tell me: their game is pretty much the same at 60 as it is at 40, just with more opportunities to chain. I've had the pleasure of seeing PLDs tank through several levels (don't mind my level data to the left, that needs to be updated) and I've never noticed a signifcant difference in how they fight; just in the tools they use to fight. They all voke, they spam the bejeezus out of Flash and they invoke their job abilities when necessary. The point of this paragraph? Well, I think that a fair assessment of the work that goes into being a PLD can be made at Lv 37 (that's the level they learn Flash if memory serves correctly) as leveling up doesn't radically change the foundation of said work.

With that said, I'm bloody insulted that people are saying PLDs work just as hard, if not harder than NINs. I respect good PLDs, I really do. One of my best friends is a PLD. But it's a grievous insult all the same. A NIN's work starts long before he ever enters the battefield. So far, I haven't found farming to be too bad, but then again, I don't have a use for shurikens for another 1.5k. Then, bear in mind that the gil spent on these consumable products is gone forever. It's not like renting armor like melees do; they see their money again eventually.

Next, we enter the battefield. Again, being only a genin, my work isn't anywhere near overtaxing yet. But it's really easy to see what the higher levels are going to be like. For a PLD, staying alive in a good party isn't a primary concern. For a NIN, it's at the very top of the list. Good tanking is synonomous with staying alive. Shadow counting sounds simple in theory. You keep a mental count in your head of all the times you see "Xaelis's shadow absorbs the damage and disappears". I thought it was simple too. And it is. Thing is, when you do it a few dozen times in a party, you're bound to make a mistake. And that mistake could cost you.

Then there's the rest of the stuff NINs do. Magic bursting, throwing shurikens, watching for skillchains...I mean, let me put it like so. PLDs have moments in time, even if only for a few seconds, when they're just holding their controllers watching the pretty lights on screen. Maybe the Cure timer is cooling down, I dunno. For NINs, these moments exist only in half millisecond intervals.

[Madden]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by LionhartPLD
[B] How do you think Paladins get their spiffy Fenrir Stones huh?

Bet with NIN sub

[LionhartPLD]

Originally posted by MAK
Ok im sorry but Cassie is not a weak HNM >.> unless you find me a RDM or NIN that can solo it. The only people who think NIN has hate problems have never lved nin past lv37 or lved with one past 66. NIN keeps pretty good hate and there are some things you can xp off that give decent xp that would be moronic for a PLD to tank like Landons or Manticores. Some Things NINs do have a hard time tanking like MNK type and some high lv HNM.

I saw 4 people take it down. And I've killed it many times myself. It's weak.

[LionhartPLD]

Originally posted by Izual
For the record, ninja CAN tank harder hnm's like Fafnir. And on that note, so can a galka war/nin But I have to admit, no one can generate hate as well as a really skilled paladin.

Speaking from an end-game perspective, both ninjas and paladins have a place when fighting hnm's, both are useful and wanted for most fights. They each have different strengths and weaknesses that might make one class more suitable for a specific fight, but that doesn't mean one is better than the other. No matter which one you're playing, don't be discouraged from taking it all the way, because I can tell you if you're good, you'll be wanted.

you've never seen Fafnir. Ninja can't take Fafnir. Fafnir has powerful status effects that blink doesn't block and very powerful AOE that Copy Image doesn't block. Fear Spiked Flail.

Bet with NIN sub

/no


And just for the record it's harder to tank as NIN than Paladin in EXP. You need to pay more attention and have good timing. And you have to pay money . . .

[Izual]

Originally posted by LionhartPLD
you've never seen Fafnir. Ninja can't take Fafnir. Fafnir has powerful status effects that blink doesn't block and very powerful AOE that Copy Image doesn't block. Fear Spiked Flail.

Uhh, so actually fighting and killing him myself doesn't count?:p We did have 1 paladin with us, but our war/nin tanked most of the fight, and he did a fine job. You're right about his moves, they are extremely powerful and dangerous, but a paladin takes damage from them just like everyone else. And if you get hit with spike flail, it doesn't matter who you are, you're probably gonna die Also don't forget, even a really well-equipped paladin will be taking constant 250-ish hits from him, while a blink tank can avoid a good number of those hits. The main advantage of having paladin tank Fafnir is hate control, paladin can generate a sick amount of hate so blm's can nuke harder without getting attacked.

[LionhartPLD]

PLD has the potential to have the highest HP through MP->HP conversions. (Cassie Earring). War and NIN can't do this. My friend who has full koenig and all that stuff has 1721 HP. Spiked Flail <~ /laugh

[Stanislav]

Originally posted by LionhartPLD
PLD has the potential to have the highest HP through MP->HP conversions. (Cassie Earring). War and NIN can't do this. My friend who has full koenig and all that stuff has 1721 HP. Spiked Flail <~ /laugh

No matter how much HP you have.. If you are taking hard hits you are gonna die..

[Stanislav]

Originally posted by LionhartPLD
you must remember that having 2 weapons it adds the delay from both weapons.
at lv70s VS IT mob in leveling party: NIN hits about 0~30 every hit. They very often hit 0s. Paladin hits about 0-30 every hit with Defender. 30-60 without.

If you are 75.. and no so little about a class you haven't played then don't post here..

NIN has the least delay of ANY class.. I attack faster then monk and as for the damage... my "Attack" is +70 on NIN if I wanted it to be.. I can him from 20-40 to 30-50 on IT monsters dependong my equip and if I decide to end a chain with Blade: Ten I can do 600-1000 damage (Not including the chain damage itself which is usually same damage as the WS)...

Seriously before you post here try playing the class :p

[Russta]

I haven't read the first eight pages but just to answer the question at hand.

Ninja.

The only time I prefer Paladin is for Gustav bones parties and that's it.

[leii]

Originally posted by Omni-Ragnarok


not quite, u add the delay from both weapons and multiply it by a coefficient depending on which dual wield you have.

Dual Wield Level Coefficient:
LVL 10 = (1st weapon delay + 2nd weapon delay) * 0.90
LVL 25 = (1st weapon delay + 2nd weapon delay) * 0.85
LVL 45 = (1st weapon delay + 2nd weapon delay) * 0.75
LVL 65 = (1st weapon delay + 2nd weapon delay) * 0.70
* Additional -0.05 with AF


so, with 2 katanas with 227 dly, u do not have a effective delay of 454 dly. if you had a ninja at 70+ that would mean your effective delay would be 295.

isnt it .5 delay at 65 and .45 delay with af armor?? always thought that.

dont forget about the +20% to haste earing and other haste items.

[Omni]

Originally posted by leii


isnt it .5 delay at 65 and .45 delay with af armor?? always thought that.

dont forget about the +20% to haste earing and other haste items.

from all the sites ive visited, what i posted seems to be correct. i dont think from dual wield III to dual wield IV it would drop .20, that would be pretty crazy.

any input stanislav or any other 65+ nin about the delay coeffecient?

[Mitsu]

OMFG this topic is still alive I see /sigh. It has even breached into the HNM scene lol. Personally PLD and NIN have a Day/Night relationship in tanking, BUT a always remember PLD can only be a tank therfore can excell in it. In that same sense NIN can also tank good (extremly good depending on the individual) PLUS can do a nice bit of damage and not getting hit while doing so. I have witnessed and been in MANY hnm fights and would like to say that NIN can tank any HNM, but in the cases of fafnir hate is MOST important simply because PLD has the ability to keep it off the rng and the mages. Oh and as far as its AOE.......if a nin has a ceartain gear set up fafnirs AOE poses no problems in fact it will miss totally. For some odd reason the evade skill kicks in IVERDRIVE when a PHYSICAL AOE is activated, and yes its possible to evade a HNM AOE but not many are evadeable. The ones i found are serkets, behemoths Simurg and I watched a NIn evade fafnirs once but died on next one, so its not somthin to rely on but its there.

[DarkSynbois]

Paladin and Ninjas are good for diffrent situations, big, slow hitting mobs (and crabs, so easy to tank) are the ideal mobs for nins to tank. Paladins for almost everything (big slow hitting mobs like Manticores and Goobbues are not good for Paladins).

But Dynamis is another story. Ive watched Paladins get destroyed by 5-6 hits mobs in dynamis. All melee should sub nin for dynamis lol

[Stanislav]

Originally posted by Omni-Ragnarok


from all the sites ive visited, what i posted seems to be correct. i dont think from dual wield III to dual wield IV it would drop .20, that would be pretty crazy.

any input stanislav or any other 65+ nin about the delay coeffecient?

what he said is pretyt much right

i swing as fast as a sword users if not faster.. if i get haste on my delay is like 1.5-2 seconds tops