PLDvsNIN

[John Doe III]

Originally posted by Stanislav
Ninja do not require a THF to keep hate.. It does make it very easy to hold with a THF but it is not required.

Not when THF is doing Fui off second tank. And...our Ninja must have been terrible or something, couldn't get hate back very well afterwards.

[Tythera]

That may be true...from what I've seen for every good NIN tank there is 2 or 3 awful ones to match.

[vudoodoodoo]

Originally posted by Mitsu
I have been in MANY 2 THF pt. Of course this was when Yokodama was still in game. 2 THF+NIN was godly. Only problem is the fact you NEVER get any rest as the ninja since hate is constant;y being put on you. BLM could do MB with 2 freeze on Ice day and I wouldnt lose hate lol. OH HOW I MISS YOKO bad S-E, BAD BAD BAD....take a integral part of gameplay that has been around for 1.5 years and "fix" it. Forgot to mention that this pt set allowed for different subs for ninja, such as sam for instance. Aww the fun times of a dual yoko

Get 2 THF, 2 NIN.

[Brianguam1]

Ok i'm a pld and for some reason i've had lots of parties with nin's, good ones too.. with rank 5 or higher. When i play with a good nin i'll provoke first, nin will use utsusemi and provoke after about 20 seconds, i'll let the mob go after the nin until he gets hit then i provoke back and so forth... So I dont need to use nearly as much mp to keep hate so i have to heal less and my pt's constantly get chain 4's and 5's. Maybe this is how it's supposed to be done but i am a new pld so tell me if otherwise.

I will say this though, when i was with a pt with a nin that wanted to tank and just wanted me to deal damage not tank it went a lot slower he couldnt cast utsusemi and would get hit a lot so the mages would have to heal him more and just slowed us down.

I think a nin can do it solo but i think a pld and a nin together do it a whole lot better.

Here's when you know your a good pld too... when you got 3 blm's in the party and they only take agro away once... and i was challenging them to take it away.... provoke, shield bash, sentinel, cure 2, provoke again, and a cure 3. We were all laughing afterwards cause they did get it away once but then i provoked him right back. Anyways thats my bragging for the day have a nice day!

[Mitsu]

While PLD and NIN pt set up is good, you would be gimping your killing speed. PLD does craptastic damage theres no getting around that. Nin can do better damage but its not THAT great. So you have 2 tanks and have to fill that last spot with another melee. Post 60 PLD and nin should never be in PT together same goes for 2 NIN, with the exception of HNM fights.

LOL if that ninja is getting hit alot and becoming a MP sink, that is not a good ninja at all. EVEN before NI a ninja can boost evade to godly levels and make it REAL hard on mobs. I took the time to lvl my PLD to 30 just to see what the other side is like. I must say i couldnt endure getting hit, it just went against everything that felt right to me. Although after while I was just like...lay back and get hit and enjoy the pt.

[zorca]

As a blm myself, I usually prefer playing with pld unless I know there's a good thf in the PT. If the thf messes up fuidama on the nin tank when doing light renkei (ie: the macro lag so fui went off b4 the renkei), I'm pretty sure MBing with firaga3 will turn the mob towards myself, as I've tried a few times myself.

However, I have to mention that most of my greatest leveling experiences have a nin being the tank (and brds, rngs too). So basically it's more like a perference more than who is better imo.

Someone said playing pld does not require as much skill as playing nin and that I cannot agree with. Being a good pld is not as easy as others think - for example, a good pld will control the hate such that the other melee dmg dealer like rng or sam can in fact turn the mob and let the thf doing fuidama on the pld in a renkei. I've seen pld turning away from the mob when the other melee fails to turn the mob with provoke so that he wont get more hate, and doing cure3/4 right after MB is finished regardless whether the monster is heading to the mages or not.

To some of you maybe this looks like nothing special but from the point of view of a blm who can easily turn the mob after MBing, this is the difference between a good or just an avg pld. Of course, good ninjas do all sort of tricks to hold hate too but it's just a fact that plds have more things they can do to keep the hate.

Anyway, this is just how i feel about the two types of tank. Most likely when u play a different job (ie: whm) u'll prefer nin over plds

[John Doe III]

Yes you were right Mits, Yoko...was the bomb..

[Seance]

Originally posted by Stanislav

PLD is a job which can be played with minimum skill and minimum equipment... PLD can go AFK during fights..

[/B]

You have got to be kidding me.

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Seance


You have got to be kidding me.

Okay lets put this to the test. Would some high level PLD please post an action by action script of what they have to do during a fight the same way mitsu did for NIN. Then we can actually compare what a PLD has to do to do their job and what a nin has to do for the same.

Then we can see which requries more skill.

[Wayne]

I don't know about you but I always have the best gear I can buy. Minimal equipment? I think not.

And if I went afk the damage dealers would gain hate asap.

So you nin think that it takes no skill at all to play a pld tank or something? I don't understand the animosty here.

One can equate casting utsuemi over and over with cure and voke over and over. I've never played nin as a blink tank, so I can't comment there, and I think unless you play pld much you have no place to comment on pld either.

[Mitsu]

When i say afk i do not mean 1-2 min. I mean 15 sec-30 30 sec, the time to answer a ringing phone for expample. PLD needs to gain hate and FIX the mob on itself, after that is done PLD melees to help KEEP hate and cycle provoke every 30 sec. May be through in a few abilities for insurance. With a ninja you DO NOT have that luxury, you have to pay attention to every detail in every fight. I have raised my PLD to 30 and i just could not take the boredom of it. I was a real good PLD but I felt constrained and limited. I sujjest all ninja play PLD for a bit in spare time, just to see the other side of tanking. You may enjoy it, you may not. I also URGE PLD to raise a ninja to 37+. It is a totally different game goin from PLD to NIN. Both do the job of tanking REAL well, but please do not dismiss the skill involved or the sheer will to be better of a good ninja player. There is a reason why NIN are rare at higher lvls. For every 10 PLD there are maybe 2 NIN past 60. As far as hate goes, because ninja has a natural inability to gain hate a NIN works harder to get it. That entails finding out what gains hate and what doesnt, how much hate is gained, and how much is lost. All this along with researching other jobs hate issues makes a great NIN tank. Always remember this a poor, stupid, pld can still get the job done in PT to some extent, where as a poor, stupid NIN will kill the PT

[neelon]

Originally posted by Stanislav
Let's begin...

PLD is a job which can be played with minimum skill and minimum equipment... PLD can go AFK during fights..

NIN requires a lot of skill and it requires the best evasion gear along with a lot of money. NIN can't go AFK during fights..

Just remember this "Anything you can do, I can do better!" ("Anything PLD can do, NIN can do better!").

Right. When I go AFK during a fight against an IT Mob (Nest Beetles and Hornflies at the moment) I seriously endanger the party and myself.

And then again, if a minimum of skill is required to play Paladin the right way, please tell me why my server is loaded with bad Paladins.

[John Doe III]

The ONLY way you could go AFK during a fight and you were the main tank is to have your macro run while you hurry and go do whatever. But if the move mobs out of the way to the mage let's say and you do 3 of your abilites then run off, your PT is gonna think your retarded.

[Deedlit]

Originally posted by Mitsu
PLD needs to gain hate and FIX the mob on itself, after that is done PLD melees to help KEEP hate and cycle provoke every 30 sec. May be through in a few abilities for insurance. With a ninja you DO NOT have that luxury, you have to pay attention to every detail in every fight. I have raised my PLD to 30 and i just could not take the boredom of it. I was a real good PLD but I felt constrained and limited.

Mitsu, in a PT I was in last night in Terrigan - PLD, SMN, BRD, THF, RNG, SAM - the PLD couldn't go afk for even 2 seconds. Zorca mentioned this earlier - its NOT an issue of fixing hate on yourself for the whole fight.

I'll go find Loial and tell him to post, he can explain better what happened.

[Kirk]

Originally posted by neelon

And then again, if a minimum of skill is required to play Paladin the right way, please tell me why my server is loaded with bad Paladins.

Cause PLD is easy and takes minimal commitment to get by. Even if they are bad, the job is easy enough, i.e. most of the functions are automated enough to allow a bad player to do ok. So in fact you've answered your own question.

Comparitvely, you'll never find a server loaded with bad ninja's. You know why? Because the job demands so much more, just to function, a bad ninja will die and suck and get frustrated and not get invites and give up long before they can be even counted amongst the number of bad ninjas. The only ninjas past 50 are good ninjas. Because they have to be good to even progress that far. All the bad ones have long since died off and switch to PLD