Pulling...replacing tanking?

[Bamce Sylph]

i'm really gonna hope that this doesn't turn into a fistfight from that one, but perhaps just a case of the out of date sig, thats why i don't put my job info in there, /shrug

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Navia
Wow look at all the NIN/WAR haters come of of the woodwork, asking for a utsusemi nerf. You people have been around EQ too long, where pulling rumors out of your ass and asking for nerfs is an innate reflex when a job doesn't fit your vision.

You think this power comes cheap - it doesn't, thats what balances things. Ninja's massive consumption of powders keeps the tradeskillers happy which keeps the gilfarmers harvesting materials for them in turn happy.
And since Cloak is jumping on the nerf bandwagon, how long have you been 51 now? :confused: I thought NIN/THF had no problem getting pt ... lol
Luckily SquareEnix isn't known to bend to the will of a few NA crybabys on message boards when balancing the game.

Hahahah! All I can say is Ditto, though I probably would not have been as direct as that. Thanks Navia for saying what I wanted to say but probably wouldn't have.

Edit: Scratch that! I'm gonna say something.

It really annoys me to see these kinds of posts advocating the nerfing of utsusemi coming from the likes of ninja n00bs, nin/thf's and non ninja's totally! I mean who are you guys to say what ninja should and should not be? Have you guys even tried playing nin/war to high level? Maybe it was too hard for you, i dunno, but regardless, you havent put in the time and effort we 60+ nin/war's have to work with the job "As it is" and succeed. Frankly you guys just dont know what it takes to be a successful ninja. If you did, you wouldn't be making the statements that you are now, cause you'd know that a ninja fits _NO_ other role in a good PT other than tank. And it takes a lot of skill to play that role well, meaning there are not many high level ninja, which makes ninja more elite and thats my main attraction to the job. If they nerfed utsusemi and turned it into another brainless melee job that any lazy player could get to 75 with, i'd stop playing it just for that reason. Would I be pissed? Sure! But I wouldn't whine about it, theres no point to that. SE makes the rules. The only choice you have as a player is to play by the rules, or not play at all.

[Pandar]

Originally posted by Kirk


Hahahah! All I can say is Ditto, though I probably would not have been as direct as that. Thanks Navia for saying what I wanted to say but probably wouldn't have.

agreed =]
we tank good cause we can afford it if you cant afford it go be a paladin

[LockeCole]

Originally posted by Bamce Sylph
y.
if people want ninjas for debuffs they're worseoff than ninja's thought. theives and higher level war's tend to sub ninja and they can debuff just as well. beyond elemental debuffs they get paralyze, slow, blind, which are all copies of whitemagic.

;; Have you tried debuffing with a gimped sub lately? I've been getting resisted at level 32 with capped ninjitsu once in a while~!! I can't imagine a level 60thf/30 nin actually succeeding in debuffing anything VT~IT with powders o_O

[Koyasha]

Well first, I didn't mean to say that I want Ninjas to be nerfed... I simply believe they're going to be changed regardless of what we want. I don't know this for certain, but it is my belief, at least for now, and I have spoken to and heard many other people who think the same thing, many pointing back to a few articles where Square supposedly said they were considering making a change. I don't have any evidence of it, but one rarely does in any of these games.

I don't mind the Ninja role as tank right now, and though I don't believe it's appropriate for the class, I wouldn't go asking for them to be changed if Ninjas are currently enjoying their role. Some people might, but I think that as long as someone is having fun and being effective, there's no need to screw them up. They're not unbalanced, as far as I've seen. I do, however, think the role is going to change regardless of our desires. That's the main reason I was talking with some friends about the Ninja, which brought me to this idea...which I decided to post here to see what the overall Ninja community thinks of it. The only reason for my post is that I think that Square intends to change Ninjas, and I thought some input on possible ways to change might influence them so that the change is something which may appeal to the Ninja population.

It's an interesting thought that debuffs would be stepping on Bard or Red Mage's toes. Red Mages more than Bards, since Bards have numerous things that they bring to a party besides their Threnodies. I hadn't really considered that aspect... The idea of debuffing them to something - that is, striking with a surprise attack and critically injuring the enemy (not by doing huge HP damage, but by reducing an ability) seems like an appropriate one for Ninja. It seems though, that there are some stats or abilities that Red Mages and Bards do not have the power to debuff (and no one currently does), and those may be excellent areas for the Ninja abilities to focus on.

Here's another thought...all monsters have various abilities that work like our weaponskills...what if the Ninja were to have the ability to make one of those unusable? No other class has the capacity to do that right now, and it seems like an interesting - and useful - ability. It could be overpowering, though...some monsters are hardly a challenge if their primary special attack is removed. On the other hand, I know that many areas and monsters are left alone, simply because of a particular special attack that people fear. If Ninjas could remove the threat of that special attack, it would make them almost necessary for hunting those areas, as well as making areas that are currently unused more populated.

Anyway, please don't take my post as a request for Ninjas to be nerfed or changed. See it more along the lines of, 'If Ninjas are going to be changed, how do we want them changed?'. If there are no such discussions, though, any change won't be able to take into account the opinions and ideas of the players, because we haven't bothered to make those ideas known. If Square intends to leave Ninjas the way they are, I have no problem with that.

[ninvampire]

The only change that should be made to the ninja class is giving us throwing weapon skills. Nerfing utsusemi is a incredibly aweful (edit :/) idea that will make ninjas worthless otherwise.

[Regulat0r]

Enjoy being a useless job other then for blink tanking Dirk =)

Just let these folks discuss, dont need to get all infuriated lol.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by LockeCole


;; Have you tried debuffing with a gimped sub lately? I've been getting resisted at level 32 with capped ninjitsu once in a while~!! I can't imagine a level 60thf/30 nin actually succeeding in debuffing anything VT~IT with powders o_O

I have been using elemental debuffs against VT-IT++ as a 33-36THF/NIN and 30-39RNG/NIN. Not once have they been resisted. My Ninjutsu skill is 25.

The one time I've EVER seen an elemental debuff resisted was when I was leveling NIN in Valkurm.

[Kiyosuki]

Saying that Ninja's arn't original now because they're considered "tanks" isn't really looking at the big picture I think. All physical classes can basically be split into two catagories, Damage Dealer's, or Tanks. ALL the Damage Dealer's have one ultimate purpose in mind, to just screw up the enemy. ALL tanks have one ultimate purpose in mind, to be the party bodyguard, basically the party's "Shield". However, while all the Damage dealer's are racked into one catagory, they all have uniquely different ways of dealing that damage that give them unique uses and places in a party. Its the exact same thing with tanks, even though Warrior's, Paladin's, and Ninja's all have the same goal they have very different ways of functioning that give them unique places in a party. Although thinking along the lines that all a frontline needs is Damage Dealer/Damage dealer/Tank can work to an extent, when you start getting higher you start really taking into thought how each dd/tank uniquely works because some work together much better than others do. Thats what gives each job, despite its common goal with others they're own unique gameplay and place in a party.

I have never heard of high level damage dealer's or Warrior's subbing Nin to enfeeble as well as Ninja mains. I think people who don't use this job past the 30's really don't know just how much of a difference the Ni enfeebles are in quality compared to Ichi. I think its actually almost wrong how much weaker the Ichi's are. The elemental enfeebles are so much better in the Ni's, and Kurayami and Hojo work twice as good as they're Ichi counterparts and come out in almost 1/3 the casting time it takes to cast Ichi. And only a Ninja main can use those as of now. They can sub it much later for Utsusemi Ni though, which is quite useful.

Ninja's really don't exactly seem like they're natural tanks but speedy type jobs in games tend to have surprising uses since speed is usually so useful. All that evasion plus massive amounts of blink and parrying, and spells that all go into making the enemy hit you even less just happen to make something very nice to concentrate hits into. Hey man, crazy stuff happens in video games, things are exploited. :3 Personally I wasn't that surprised this job fights so forwardly like a tank, Ninja's have been straight forward fighter's who use wacky abilities to confuse or cripple they're opponents lots of times. Just look at Strider. Ninja's being one hit kill monsters is an overused thing anyways, and its not how Ninja's have been used in FF games anyways.

One thing though I can see now having had a good bit of experience with this job, is that if Utsusemi was nerfed there is only one way the programmers can keep this job even remotely viable. Give them more unique enfeebles or play mechanics that are both powerful, and can't be duplicated by any other job.Even if the existing enfeebles get a power boost it can't take away from the fact that other jobs, mostly mage jobs, have spells that do the exact same thing by effect. The elemental Enfeebles are an original idea and very useful, but it just wouldn't be enough to keep the job afloat all by itself. As it is now, its fine. Ninja's are the only job that can blink tank like they do until level 72, and even then they're unique stats still make them uniquely viable for that function. The enfeebles all help keep the enemy at bay and seriously help out. But if you are confined to a damage dealing/backuptank position you have to have something more unique or it just wouldn't work. As it stands I've been put into a damage dealer position before, by both NA and JP parties but its only been as a last resort. I did pretty good with Shurikens and Duel Wield damage but if Ninja's were forced to do only that the fact is other job's have more to work with in that position. I do actually pretty good dph but none of the insane weapon skill strategies or job abilities. Yeah I can enfeeble and keep the Tank from being hit as much but so can a Mage, enfeebling in a tanking position is awsome because it gives you even more of an incentive to put it all on the enemy but in a damage dealer position its just not unique enough to stand on its own.
The elemental enfeebles are very useful but its just not enough. You get what I'm saying?

I also haven't heard anything about Ninja's having Utsusemi nerfed. The only time I could possibly see it happen is when Conflict is implemented, and there'd have to be some serious compensation to cover for blink's loss. If they didn't do anything else to the job and stop blink tanking I'd just quit. If I can't play my favorite job as anything more than a completely gimped job with no aparent strength of any kind then forget it. How long has the Ziratt expansion been out in Japan? Blink tanking I know was created pretty soon into the Ninja's existence, but I'd imagine if it was that much of a problem they would of done something by now.

They may change it, but like said in this post they'd need to give Ninja's something really serious to compensate for the loss. I bet thats why it hasn't been done yet because its a very tricky situation. They'd have to come up with something completely new to give the class to compensate.

Maybe it'll happen, maybe it won't. But until any kind of news comes up I don't think things should be taken beyond speculation.
I'd adapt but unless the compensation for blink tanking's loss was just *that* badass, I'd be pretty pissed too.

Yes a long post, but I haven't posted for a while so ...yeah...

[Koyasha]

Yep, I agree that the compensation needs to be pretty significant. Hell, maybe when I get around to Ninja, I'll enjoy the tanking and be annoyed if it's changed also.

But I wouldn't say that it won't be changed after being this way for such a long time. One only needs to look at Yokodama for an example of something that was a certain way for quite a while before it was changed. I also think that the reason it's taking so long to change is because they haven't yet come up with an idea to change it that won't completely gimp the class.

[ninvampire]

Yokodama is one thing ... it was fairly unbalacing especially since sneak attack is supposed to be back-stab. They fixed sneak attack, not yokodama. This was not a nerf.

Blink-tanking is another ... it wasn't intended, but isn't unbalanced either. No where in the description of utsusemi does it say "absorbs attacks, but only if you're not tanking." Altering utsusemi will ultimately be a nerf, not a fix.

The only thing I can see them doing to utsusemi to nerf it to not being viable for tanking purposely is making the shadows randomly absorb hits. This would be a huge-nerf and would throw ninja to below-bottom-rung in terms of usefulness.

Kiyouski, Utsusemi:Ni is level 37, so /NINs don't get it until level 74, not 72.

[Kiyosuki]

Yeah....74, 37+37. It was late. I find it kind of funny when all these Warrior/Ninja supporter's come forward saying they're going to completely replace me...for one whole level. Yeah!

Yokodama was simply abusing a glitch in the system. Not a huge glitch mind you, but an unintentional glitch in Sneak Attack that gave Thieves too many unfair advantages with no draw backs. Utsusemi's usage isn't a glitch at all, it was just a very unusual way of using an existing technique in a perfectly natural way. If it made Ninja's way too powerful then a nerf would be understandable, right now though its quite challenging to do the whole thing and its a purely skill based technique. Its not particularly exploitable as the other tanks still have they're own strengths that put them in favor in certain situations still.

People were speculating that Utsusemi would be nerfed for Conflict because it could potentially be a dangerously unbalancing thing in pvp regards. But I don't think you can provoke a pc. But maybe you will..like a temporary thing. I don't know, but I doubt it as of now. But even after Yokodama got taken away from Thieves, the Thf class still had unique and shining strengths that made them unique and effective on they're own for the most part. You can argue that after 60 other Melee's with /thf can do the same thing but a Thief can still at that point do what they can do real well. If Utsusemi was taken away the Ninja job would have almost nothing to make itself stand out. Duel Wield is nice, but the speed increases for the main job wouldn't be enough. You know, everything said above. It would basically make the class effectively useless unless it were subbed by the usual Rng Thf combo, but that wouldn't be fair at all to people playing this class higher.

[gomenasai]

hehe, something i've noticed, even when i'm asked to be the main tank and puller at the same time (i have a warrior subjobbed for emergencies) i don't find it to be a difficult job whatsoever, it's just a rythm. Though i do find it boring (except the pulling ^^).

Face it, utsu tanking (and the ninja job in entirety) is not the what these ninja pity parties say it is, don't let them victimize themselves, it's not that hard (especially after you get utsu: ni)

Try being a bard or white mage and have everyone complain to you when you're doing your best, that's hard

[Kirk]

Gomen, you're still only a level 40ish ninja. You haven't even gotten Hojo: Ni yet. Wait till the 60's where you gotta burn 30~40k gil an xp party and fight mobs that can clean you out in a heart beat without utsusemi up. Trust me the job of ninja tank gets much more difficult the higher you go up. So much so that only die hard players who really love ninja tanking will put up with it. Dont underestimate the job yet, you are only just beginning.

[ninvampire]

As I was internet-less earlier today I was flipping through the Ninja Gaiden instruction manual and remembered the glory of the double image from Ninja Gaiden II.

If they were to make any kind of change to utsusmei to pull a ninja away from tanking, this might be the only worthwhile change. Instead of utsusemi being used defensively, being used offensively.

But the last thing FFXI needs is to convert a tanking class into a pure damage dealing class. There are far too many as is right now.