Ninja damage dealing ability.

[Patchinko]

I did read through much of what's been said, and it really is a NIN/THF thread in disguise. The arguments I made could easily be slightly adjusted to fit for a /DRK or /SAM or whatever other ineffective combo you crave to advertise. In addition, you started speaking about NIN/THF, so just because I present the other side is no reason to pass it off and ask that it not be spoken about.

These combos all suffer from the same problems. The reality is that without provoke, you're not going to be a good tank and therefore will not do your job well. It's a fundamental flaw with FFXI that people just have to recognize and fight through.

I understand that your point is that NIN can deliver high damage. Like I said, NIN ATK is very good, but that's not a good enough excuse to ignore Utsusemi or your responsibility as a tank. That's part of the job. It would be like a PLD w/o provoke, subbing DRK to cause more damage. That doesn't seem ridiculous to you?

Now I understand the desire to be different and find other uses for the job than "just to blink tank" (which, I might add, is done well by so few people that by perfecting it, you'd be distinguishing yourself quite a bit from the pack) and that leads you to want to create a purely melee NIN. The last post here is simply a long-winded "Dual Weild = high damage." Then what is the point of this whole conversation? You still have Dual Weild and your ATK is improved with a WAR sub, plus you are able to do your job as a tank at the same time.

I guess my point is, while all this speculation is intriguing, in practice it seems like a way of escaping having to use Shihei. If you're worried about money, might I suggest being a THF or SAM?

[Kiyosuki]

Well actually I was kind of hinting that Nin/War is great as an offensive character, since Drk and Sam don't have Berserk and Double Attack.

Yeah I know about provoke and all that, but this doesn't have to do with that. What I'm trying to say is what I personally think is the best way for Ninja's to inflict the best damage *that they can do* with Regular melee. At this point in my levels my regular melee on par, sometimes more than the other damage dealer's regular attacks. What separates the Damage guys from us though is that they have things like Fuidama and Guillotine to use to make they're overall damage better. But our regular melee is far from bad at this point. Duel Wield doesn't equal high damage, but the fact you hit twice is speaking for itself there on what may be the best way to get the most out of the ability. And since Ninja's delay interval tends to be shorter thats something else to think about.

Concentrating on getting Ninja's to hit more times I think is far more important than trying to up attack power to huge ammounts. I wouldn't touch Ochido's Kote personally at this point due to that Evasion minus. The attack doesn't really warrent the sacrifice to me.

I just think its something useful for all people who are trying to take this class to high levels to remember. Even a tanking Ninja can use that knowledge to make themselves a bit better. I mean, I play Nin/War as you can see. Its helped me a lot so far.

[Patchinko]

I'm not going to continue. You don't seem to have a point beyond, "Make your NIN as damaging as possible," which obviously is a goal of every good NIN. There's nothing really to talk about here.

Concentrating on getting Ninja's to hit more times I think is far more important than trying to up attack power to huge ammounts. I wouldn't touch Ochido's Kote personally at this point due to that Evasion minus. The attack doesn't really warrent the sacrifice to me.

For reference, Ochiudo's Kotes are one of the best items a NIN can have during the levels it becomes available. Why you wouldn't take a hit in evasion (an A skill) in exchange for attack when you have Utsusemi is inexplicable (unless it's just that you don't want to camp Mee Deggi or don't want to save up for them). You wouldn't trade 5 evasion, of which you already have far more than any other job, for 20 attack?

You've made this whole topic ranting about how important boosted attack is, and then you say something like that. Not to mention conflicting statements about whether or not Dual Weild increases DMG for a NIN. (First you make a whole essay about how it does, then in one sentance in your last post you say it doesn't.)

I guess I'm just not seeing the point of your comments here.

[Bamce Sylph]

i'm sorry patch but im gonna have to step in and defend kiyo now unless u have recentally gone ona break, and returned, or changed handels i've never seen u around, i plague these boards daily. with the ps2 invasion 2 days away i find it important to have all the relevent information handy. for what good it will do us, because we know they won't read it anyway. the fight about ninja subs has been going on as far as i can remember. kiyo is attempting to put it to rest in a slightly diffrent way. /war is better in every way to /theif there.

"I'm not going to continue. You don't seem to have a point beyond, "Make your NIN as damaging as possible," which obviously is a goal of every good NIN. There's nothing really to talk about here."

there is 3 divisions of classes, dps, tank, support. a nin/theif is not dps, no matter how you try and come off with it, your gimp. sneak attack as a sub sucks, trick can only be worse, your attack will be lower because u dont' have zerk, and u don't have double attack.

now i ask you, what is a dps class suppose to do BESIDES MAKE YOUR CLASS AS DAMAGING AS POSSIBLE!, that would be the whole point of your job in a group is to kill it as fast as possible, however when u pull hate you've gone to far, forutntally the ninja is equiped to handle this via blink powders, which happense to be how the blinktank was born i'm guessing.

about the kote's if your a tank no you would want eth+evasion, its either dodge or take a copy, and the more you dodge the longer until you have to recast blink. howabout instead of putting a +atk item which just does more damage w/ a + enmity gloves as raw+hate puts more towards continued tanking as a tank your job is to mitigate damage, and keep hate, fail to do either decentally, and well, you fail to be a tank

duel weild does not directly increase ninja damage, but rather decreases the delay between attempts at damage. or in the tanking case, attempt to land hits for + enmity gear to take effect

not only are you not seeing, your not reading.

[Patchinko]

Bamce Sylph, you are the one who needs to go back and read things before replying. I'm the one advocating NIN/WAR over NIN/THF, etc. here.

I think one can make a case for NIN/THF or NIN/DRK or whatever other combo one can come up with to some extant, but when it comes down to it, NIN/WAR is the best way to go, as these other combos don't allow one to take advantage of the inherent benefits of the class. Had you taken the time to read what I posted, you'd know that's what I've been saying.

In addition, you trolled into the melee thread in RDM and replied in a similar manner, without actually reading what was said.

(And if you clicked on my name and read my info, you'd notice I registered here before you, if that holds some kind of weight with you. I don't post here usually because I'd rather be playing the game.)

[Deneb]

From what ive read so far, both of you seem to agree that Nin/War is the better combo, yet Patchinko is trying to argue the point, how can you argue when your both agreeing that Nin/War is superior to Nin/Thf? Everyone in this thread has agreed that Nin/Thf is terrible, so lets drop the arguement and get back on topic

Id like to add, that using a 2 hand great katana isnt such a bad idea either if you want to do better damage. Keep in mind though, my ninja is only 29, so I dont have any haste gear or dual wield III yet. But right now, when i compare my damage with Two Bosuto +1 to my damage with the G. Katana around that level, its rather one sided, the delay is roughly the same too, its just one good hard hit, compared to two weeker swipes. It helps me out alot vs IT mobs, as hitting is never a problem but sometimes keeping hate is, especially since theres rarely a 30 thf around yet to do trick off me. Just my 2 cents on the matter.

[stray]

Originally posted by Patchinko
This is a "/THF" thread in disguise. ><

...The NIN library of spells is meant specifically for keeping hate, and without provoke, that's going to be difficult...

If you want to /THF, do it with SAM, one of the few jobs where it can be applied to any useful degree...

ok...

a) that's incredibly shortsighted to say the nin library of spells is specifically for keeping hate. that couldn't be farther from the truth. that they are primarily used in that manner is one thing, what their purpose is is another. i'm talking about the elementals and enfeebles, not utsusemi. all blink adds extra hate, just watch a blm who nuked too hard with blink up.

b) sam/thf is a cop out. thf really doesn't do much for samurai except stacking ws with sneak attack. base damage for samurai is alot better with /war and berzerk does a hell of alot more. drk is about the only job where /thf is respected and actually works better than any other sub.

aside from those points i just had to address i don't see why you keep going back to this being about /thf patchingko. as far as kiyo's first post it's about maximizing damage in the (actually fairly common) position of not being the main tank.

[qweezy]

A Ninja is easily outdamaged by other damage dealing classes by 2-3 times. I don't know why you're still bringing this up, a Ninja doesn't do good damage, period.

- Katana sucks, a lvl 60 Sword has better DPS then our lvl 70 Katana. Our passive haste makes up for this, so at best I'd call it even here.

- We are tanks, in order to tank, you have to spend about 50% of the battle casting Ninjitsus, be it to cast Utsusemi for defense or other Ninjitsus for gaining hate. When you're casting, you ain't swinging.

- Our WS sucks. The 3 hitter Blade: Jin, is another dissapointing WS. My perma PT don't even renkei with me, they attack 100% of the time, while I attack 50% of the time and spend the rest casting. Your tp won't be able to catch up. Really, those Ninjas that are still putting hope on the quest 5-hitter WS doing good damage can about give up now. Go to your local Warrior and ask him to do Rampage(5 hitter) for you, or Paladin for Vorpal Blade(4 hitter), the damage on these WS are very weak. And this is them using Axes and Swords, which have much higher base attack compared to Katanas.

- Finally, our equipment. You design your Ninja around evasion/defense and hate. Accuracy is secondary, attack is last. If you design your Ninja for damage(which is something we're bad at), you'll kill your ability to tank(what people invite Ninjas into groups for).

Kiyo, compare yourself to a good Rng or Thf at your level, DRK and War don't shine till they're 60+. DRG and SAM, pffft they suck all the way. Depending on what they sub, Rng/Thf/Drk/War damage is insane at higher levels. Damage between us and them is like night and day.

[KaworuNagisa]

Don't forget monk ;p They always underestimate us.. /sigh

[Kiyosuki]

Guys you've completely misunderstood the thread, thats not what I'm saying at all. Ok, I'll spell it out what I'm saying since a few don't seem to understand.

What I'm not saying:

-Patchingko, I have never said anything about Nin/Thf other than a few examples. I'm not trying to argue in its favor and have said like, in plain bold letters that I don't like the combo. Has it gotten to the point where Nin/Thf's being like, inserted into all of our topics on this board just because its talked about so much? I have no clue where you got this thread being a Nin/Thf thread in disguise like Deneb said, how can it be when I've said plainly I don't think it works?



-Qweezy, you know I haven't ever said that Ninja's are a damage dealer. I said also that I know that Ninja's are outdamaged by the other melee's because they have Weapon Skills and Job Abilities for that etc, besides regular melee. What I was just talking about was the best damage that *Ninja's are capable of*, not the best damage of any class in the game, only of what our class is capable of. Taking its offense to how far it can go. Basically everything you just said is what I said in the first post, with speed of our hits we can get some pretty good results from regular melee, as *much as we are capable of* I know that the class is a tanking class mostly and have also said that, but this is information I think can make Ninja tanks perform better. My evasion at 41 was 161, so I know about the evasion stuff but this has nothing to do with blink tanking. What I'm saying is I think that maybe sacrificing some evasion for a little bit of accuracy, and some haste gear (Fuma Kyahan is pretty much it for the lower levels) can help you keep hate much better since the damage you do is pretty ok then. I used to not pair myself with a White Mage often because I thought it wasn't necessary. But when I reached 40 and got Fuma Kyahan and a little bit more accuracy/dex, I asked the Whm to regularly haste me. With that extra bit of hit rate, and 1H club speeds I started keeping hate much, much better than before. I mostly used Hojo since out of all your Ninjutsu it gets the most hate (If you don't count the Elemental Ninjutsu circle method anyways) And provoke but I still felt that Hate was a bit frail. But after I concentrated on upping my hit rate with speed and accuracy hate started being kept to me a lot better because my hits with Berserk on and food were doing 40-45-50 per hit in the lower 40's (With 19 dmg weapons, need a Bokuto or AF1. As a Tarutaru too!) and both hits hit far more often than before so I was doing 90-95 per hit with the same delay rate as a 1 H club. So not only could I keep hate better, but I did my share of damage too. Not Damage Dealer tops but at least a little tiny less than a Warrior using an Axe.

I wanted to bring this up because this is such an under talked about topic in this forum. Everyone's always so busy arguing left and right over Nin/Thf working or sucking, or screaming at people that Ninja's are tanks. We know that already, but there's a lot more to this job and even tanking with this job than just knowing that your a tank, and using provoke and a few Ninjutsu sparingly. There's all sorts of things that are never talked about, like the best damage that Ninja's are capable of, speciific ways to use Ninjutsu to make it more effective rather than randomly just casting something at random. I just think its time to move on from the constant /Thf and "Ninja's are tanks you n00B!!1" threads, its getting very very repetative. Its honestly why there's so many crappy Ninja's out there. They're all told "Your a tank" And nothing else, so they don't perform nearly as well as they could. All the best Ninja's out there know things like this. Its not just spamming Ninjutsu, there's ways to be better than average.

Anyways, moving on with the topic. The fact that Ninja's can potentially hit much more often than other Melee's is something I think. Like Stray said its maximizing the amount of damage your capable of. Our attack power is low, so I think in order to be an even better tank, or Ninja in general a little bit of your equipment should be dedicated to helping you hit more. I see a lot of Ninja's out there that try to solve the problem by using Atk upping items like Ochido's Kote, or by just ignoring the problem and overloading with Evasive gear. While that'll make the enemy miss you a little bit more, whats the point of having all that evasion if you keep the enemy to you so much less effectively?

Instead of ignoring it or trying to up Attack power, I thought I'd try to get my character to just plain hit more often and its worked out way better than I thought it would. I get my double hit in very often on IT's, and my delay time's faster. That means with all the haste enhancing with Duel Wield III I'll be able to hit the enemy faster than a 1 H club. At 50 when a Nin/War gets double attack you'll hit faster than a 1H club, hit twice, and you'll have the chance to hit 3-4 times randomly each one of those times. Since you'll be hitting faster, you can get some really good spam damage in there. Since Ninja attack power isn't terribly high, but not terribly low either thats not that bad at all. I think for Ninja tanks thats invaluable information. Its improved my tanking game a whole lot more. If you throw in Ni elementals (Or do the elemental circle method), and a couple of shuriken your damage performance will be the absolute best you can get out of this class. All that and you can still use a lot of Evasive gear and tank with Utsusemi.


So while overloading with Evasive gear will make you faster, and Atk up gear will make your attack a bit better I think doing either of these wastes parts of this job's performance. I think the best thing to do is to get some of the major evasion boosting items like VE, survival Belt, Spirit Torque, Dodge Earrings and your back armor. Then use what you have left to boost Accuracy and speed (I should just say Fuma Kyahan since its all there really is Haste wise pre AF, unless you have a million or two...) Then pair up with someone with Haste if you can. Your damage will be far better ( NOT Damage dealer, just the absolute best you are capable of, the ninja limit. Though I swear I don't do bad at alll...)

So far the other job forums have they're share of annoying "redundant" topics, but at least they also have some really useful topics that explore they're jobs every function. So far this forum's been swamped with /War vs /Thf arguments and "Nin's are tanks only" shout fests. There's a lot to this job I think we should kind of start talking about instead of constantly shouting the obvious. The fact some people were so ready to turn this thread into a flame war over these overdone topics is testament to that.

Come on guys, lets talk about the actual job a little more. >< Ways for someone to get better at they're job other than just "You are teh tank n00B!"

[twylyght]

the fudo katanas (+3% criticals) work nicely with the speed increases and haste

[obsidian]

Even if you play NIN as you have suggested, it still won't be as powerful as some of the other melee classes like DRK, MNK, and WAR. The only way to take advantage of a ninja is to use their throwing and ninjitsu skills. Unfortunately, stars cost a ton which puts them into league with rangers where a ranger will clearly outdamage them for cheaper. The ninja powders are also very expensive.

Ninjas are considered tanks because that is the only area where they can use all their abilities and excel at their job far and beyond every other class. Blink for taking no damage (and thus not losing hate) and throwing stars and other ninjitsu spells for building up hate (along with their damage). Sure, a ninja can be a damage dealer, but they are gimped compared to a lot of other classes. NIN is to tank as RNG is to damage dealer.

[Kiyosuki]

Yeah we know. Once again its not about proving that Ninja's are tanks, or trying to say we can out damage dedicated melee's. Its just some tips on how to get the best damage you can get from a Ninja, for general purposes, even when tanking. You know, just general stuff.

Ninja's can dish out good damage from regular melee I'm positive of that. Its not like, hardcore ultra super duper one hit kill damage, or even damage dealer calibur because of the lack of physically damaging WS's or job abilities. But so far when I see a lot of Ninja's they tend to structure what offense they do have in what I think isn't tne best way. I don't wanna repeat the whole thing again though.

But if a Ninja can dish out the best possible damage they can through a particular style of equipment, that means you just perform better in general, even tanking (double attack's nice)

Once again this thread isn't a Ninja's outdamage all melee's thread, or a Ninja's arn't tanks thread. Its just some random finding to get a little more out of the class thats all.

[Masenken]

Hmm, I guess I'll add my 2 cents here

I'm currently a lvl 40 nin/war, and have played the field with this job on my trek to 40. I never really tanked til lvl 32, at which point I plowed my way to 40 like a runaway train in 3 short days.

Damage at times wasn't at it's best and other times it rocked. Keeping hate was only a problem for me when a ranger did a renkei, I just couldn't compete with that much damage... luckily most mobs died shortly after.

I've also sat in the back and let the pld take the tanking position. At this point all I did was pay attention to how much damage "I personally" was doing compared the drk's, and rng's. It was here that I made some notes to myself.

First, when I'm not tanking I can berserk like crazy while sitting in mithkabob heaven. The 229 to attack is also nice. This is also when I debuff the most. Hojo and Jubaku are a must and Kurayami helps too

Second, my elemental Ni spells coupled with weapon skills. As everyone should know, many of our ws's are elemental based and that can be a very good thing when fighting mobs weak to those ele's. Using the ni spells to weaken them to the desired elemental backed with a powerful renkei based on that ele makes for nice damage. Plus it's a step away from using retsu all the time

third... yeah... retsu. when tanking it becomes my savior, especially against mnk type mobs. Why waste dodges or shadows when you can just make them not swings for up to ten rounds. That goes for any other tank. The paralysis effect from what I've seen overlaps. When one runs out the other takes effect, which is a nice bonus.

Last, Dps. It's been mentioned a bazillion times, but dps is a nin's main tour de force. When tanking I am NOT casting blink all the time... I have hp too, I can take a few hits! I don' berserk cause it's suicide, and I can rack up a lot of TP before blinking again. This keeps me in the renkei, and the whm can fix me up with just 2 or 3 measly cure II's easily.

So, I may have an odd way of playing, but I think it works out for the party. I play to keep my party alive, not to excell in one single area. I think that by using everything we were given we do a great service to our pt in both damage and support.

now... all I need to do is fix that gay +15 to eva I have right now and I'd be set lol

[Kiyosuki]

Ninja's seem really good against enemies that are weak to Ice in particular. Cast Hyoton: Ni on a Crawler and use Blade: To and you'll get an instant 250-300 damage, thats just at a little more than 100% tp. That basically sets the monster on me for the rest of the battle. Anything thats weak to Ice has taken heavy damage from Blade: To mixed with Hyoton. Teki to an extent too when used with Katon: Ni when used against enemies weak to Water. But Monsters weak to water are kind of rare, and Teki doesn't seem to have the Piercing power To seems to have against Ice.I wanna Experiment with Blade: Chi's Earth element with Huton: Ni to see if it can land a critical blow like To+Hyoton

Its too bad there's no Fire elemental Katana weapon skill (Maybe the last ones..?) You'll have to use Swords for those.

Lots of monsters are weak to Ice though so its a really useful tactic for tanking. It makes controlling hate a lot easier.