Raging Fist numbers

[Jei]

Re: Raging Fist numbers

i was thinking about asuran fist @@; sorry

[Dryhus]

Re: Raging Fist numbers

Raging Fists is 5+1 hits

Hand-to-Hand and Dual Wield adds 1 extra hit to any weapon skill. This extra hit is equivalent to the sub weapon and will add the extra TP generated from that weapon instead of 1%. So it's 5+5+1+1+1+1 for RF if you get 5TP per punch.

Rampage is 5 hits using a single axe. If you're DWing axes, you get the extra hit.

Conversely, hand-to-hand weapon skills can ONLY be used with a 2-hit H2H weapon equipped, and as such are a minimum of 2 hits. Combo is 3 hits. Dragon Kick is 2 hits. Asuran Fists is 8 hits. Raging Fists is 5 hits. Not 5+1. Just 5. Extra hits can come from Double Attack or Kick Attack, but not from hand-to-hand weapons.

Double Post Edited:

i was thinking about asuran fist @@; sorry

[Kenki]

Re: Raging Fist numbers

No, I believe it's one extra hit.

You can count the extra +5% TP from the other hand attack. Since the additional attacks only give +1% TP. If it were just 5 normal hit then you shouldn't be getting the additional +4.5~5% TP.

I do get some 17% TP return from Asuran Fists, mostly 16% (I get 9.5% TP from 2 hits). I don't have /War sub nor any other additional attack. I don't think kick attack can add hits to WS. I also get a 14% TP return after Combo in promy (lv30 cap); I have about 12% TP per round at the time - mostly stay at 12~13%.

[Dryhus]

Re: Raging Fist numbers

No, I believe it's one extra hit.

You can count the extra +5% TP from the other hand attack. Since the additional attacks only give +1% TP. If it were just 5 normal hit then you shouldn't be getting the additional +4.5~5% TP.

I do get some 17% TP return from Asuran Fists, mostly 16% (I get 9.5% TP from 2 hits). I don't have /War sub nor any other additional attack. I don't think kick attack can add hits to WS. I also get a 14% TP return after Combo in promy (lv30 cap); I have about 12% TP per round at the time - mostly stay at 12~13%.

Don't multi-hit weapon skills give normal TP for the first round of attacks (in the case of H2H, the first 2 hits) and 1% TP for each hit thereafter? That puts an 8-hit Asuran Fists at around 16% with some 17% returns when DA and KA proc.

[Tirrock]

Re: Raging Fist numbers

I've never heard of somebody exceeding 8 hits on asuran fists.

My TP on raging fists against EPs is pretty consistant. 14% TP. (I solo EPs with /WHM and VC on for tiny amounts of exp/guard skill.) I get 11% per melee round (5.5ish TP a punch) and 1% for each extra punch. Using TM hooks +2, raja's ring, and second to last level of martial arts (the level 61 version of the trait).
5.5 + 5.5 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 14%

Unless I managed to miss one hit every time I use raging fists...I'm very much inclined to disagree with raging fists being 6 hits.

[Minaku]

Re: Raging Fist numbers

I'm pretty certain dryhus is right. H2H is not the same as DW. You can only do Raging Fists one way - with H2H. There is no reason for something that is called a "5-hit attack" to actually be 5+1 in every situation. My tp returns have always backed this up.

I am also quite certain Asuran cannot exceed 8 hits no matter what. Perhaps DA or kicks could fire on Asuran, but if so they'd only count if you missed a regular hit, and it's impossible to tell which is which from what info we're given. If you get 10 tp or less from 2 punches, you cannot exceed 16tp Asuran EVER. If you did, something else happened, like you got hit. Believe me, this has been argued to death in more established forums.

[Dryhus]

Re: Raging Fist numbers

I am also quite certain Asuran cannot exceed 8 hits no matter what. Perhaps DA or kicks could fire on Asuran, but if so they'd only count if you missed a regular hit, and it's impossible to tell which is which from what info we're given. If you get 10 tp or less from 2 punches, you cannot exceed 16tp Asuran EVER. If you did, something else happened, like you got hit. Believe me, this has been argued to death in more established forums.

This is interesting information, and is definitely news to me. I guess Double Attack and Kick Attacks serve to make Asuran Fists damage more consistent, then, rather than more damaging. On a WS than can hit anywhere between 1 and 8 times depending on Accuracy, I'll take consistent damage any day.

Are there any other weapon skills that work this way? Can Hexastrike only land for 6 hits, neglecting a Dual Wield or Double Attack bonus? Does Rampage max out at 5 hits, contrary to what I've heard from WAR/NINs?

[Tirrock]

Re: Raging Fist numbers

Everything I've heard has said the maximum number of hits on a weapon skill is eight. Nobody is really sure if double attack works with asuran fists or not, but it's assumed it does, but only if you miss.

The person that taught me most of what I know about melees (MNK in specific) told me that each weapon skill has a certain limit on how many times double attack can work on it. I haven't really seen any topics about this, but I haven't searched too hard either. She hasn't led me wrong yet. (Granted, she's also not a WAR.)

An eight hit hexa is possible. Dual Wield + Double attack. WHM/NIN with a brutal earring and/or food with +double attack. I don't know if you could get it with just /WAR though.

Rampage is 5 hits with one axe, right? Just subbing ninja and using a second axe would put it at six hits. I'd be very surprised if double attack didn't work with it.

[Dryhus]

Re: Raging Fist numbers

Everything I've heard has said the maximum number of hits on a weapon skill is eight.

That sounds very SE-esque, now that you mention it that way. A nice round number, byte-wise.

[Lmnop]

Re: Raging Fist numbers

phew! by the time I get to the bottom of the 2nd page, I forget all the stuff I wanted to comment on...

First and foremost, the issue at hand: I hate to say it but I think the acc rings are what'll help Nanatsu the most. Just a little bit of +acc here-and-there to let you focus on eating meat is the best thing you can do. Btw, look at the #s of the rest of your party. Double Thrust from a DRG should average under your RF numbers, if you're averaging 2-300 then a war/nin with dual axes is prolly doing 100-200. And the rare War/thf should be doing 250-350ish, I'd think. As is, RF is the best stand alone WS (I say stand alone because there are 2 WSs at this level that abuse SA to make big numbers) WS 'til... prolly right up to rampage/sidewinder. Maybe i'm overestimating it since I stopped Mnk @37? (RF is 41, I believe)

technically, RF isn't "an acc based" WS as someone said, WSs that are truely acc based are Dancing Edge, Asuran Fists, Swift Blade(I think), Sidewinder, Skewer, prolly a few others that I don't have. I just wanted to clarify. It is, indeed, dmg varies with tp.

As for the Tp conversation... this is something that's gone on and on and on. I really don't know which is true and which isn't, but something I wanted to note:
if it is indeed 5.5 + 5.5 + 1 + 1 + 1, then 11% tp would make some of the saddest looking RFs around. that would imply that not only did you only connect 2/5 swings, one of those swings was weaker than the rest.

The 2nd best RF (the best being all hits connect for 14%tp) would be to have 8.5% tp (missing only the 2nd 5.5% swing). Reason being: the extra offhand swing deals damage and gains tp just like a normal swing. It doesn't take into account tp% for extra damage, nor does it consider those dreaded Weapon Skill Modifiers.

No, offhand swing will not give +1% tp. Multi-hit WSs are figured easy enough. Just take it one step at a time -- 1st hit: full tp for normal swing. Extra hits: 1 tp each. Now if Dual Wield=true: add one normal swing with its damage and its tp gain, all as normal.

For the record: HtH does work the exact same as Dual Wield. All attacks are made +1. The problem is: did S-E already include this in the flavor text, knowing that all HtH skills automatically dual wield?

Rampage is 5 hits +1 if dual wielded. This makes sense because Rampage can often be 5 hits, so they're not about to say in flavor text of every WS in the game: "Fast blade: a 2 fold attack (or 3 if dual wielded)" ...too much work. They still haven't updated the description of banish to include it's defense-negating property, so why would they do something so tedius?

So now look at Mnk WSs.
-Shoulder Tackle gets an extra swing via offhand attack (no stunning property, no special mods to it's dmg).
-Combo is a 3-fold attack according to text. But is this 3 WS hits + normal hit? This would obviously lying since it should just say 4 hits, right? But if it truely is 3 hits, then it's still technically lying since you're only doing 2 WS hits.

So the only things that I still don't know the answers to: is Combo 3 hits or 4? is Raging Fists 5 hits or 6? If the game truely caps at 8 attacks (kracken club cap ftw), then Asuran Fists could easily be 8+1 swings, but the offhand swing always gets truncated off.

[Jei]

Re: Raging Fist numbers

Now I've actually get to experience raging fist ^^ Back to original OP, 300 at 44 is nothing to be ashamed of. I pulled hate right of the PLD when I land do 250+ which I do it pretty consistantly xD

I just reached 50 last night. For the first time I had a very hard time landing multiple raging fist on beetles in garlaige. I was there a little too low I suppose (started PTing at 47) and from 47-49, eatching sushi is the only way I can hit 10+ TP consistantly, at a very gimped damaged (always less than 160 ;_; ) It got a lot better at level 50, I switched to meat mithkabob and still able to pull 14-15TP return from raging fist and doing upwards 450 damage.

[Dryhus]

Re: Raging Fist numbers

For the record: HtH does work the exact same as Dual Wield. All attacks are made +1. The problem is: did S-E already include this in the flavor text, knowing that all HtH skills automatically dual wield?

As has been said before, it is quite similar to Dual Wield, but it does not work the exact same way.

Rampage can be used with a single axe, and with 100% Accuracy it will land for 5 hits. Dual Wield adds an extra hit to this.

Combo is 3 hits, as can be seen in the animation (punch, punch, kick) regardless of what the WS description says (I believe it does say 3 hits, but I forget). A typical 100% Accuracy return for this would be 12% TP, that being 5.5 + 5.5 + 1. It's not 5.5 + 1 plus a bonus 5.5 hit from your "offhand". The first swing can earn a 5.5% return, the second can earn a 5.5% return, and the third can earn a 1% return. If you hit,hit,miss, you would not get 6% TP, you would get 11% TP.

When you say the best return from Raging Fists is 14% and the 2nd-best is 8.5%....it sounds like you're implying that you only get the second 5.5% if you land ALL the hits. Again, it's untrue. You can get a return of 13%...12%...etc. Likewise, with Raging Fists, your first hit can earn you 5.5%, your second hit can earn you 5.5%, and the remaining 3 hits can earn you 1% each.

With Rampage or other multi-hit WSs enhanced by Dual Wield, I believe the extra hit from DW returns 1%. If a 5-hit Rampage returned 11% TP, then I believe DWing axes would have returned 12% and not 18%. This would be further prove that H2H doesn't give you a bonus hit from your "offhand", as it gives full TP. This would, of course, be because it's the TP from your normal attack round, plus 1% for each additional hit in the WS.

[Lmnop]

Re: Raging Fist numbers

DW extra hits add normal tp, not one. Trust me on this, it's been discussed to death, somewhere around here I even demonstrated my foolproof method of determining the truth in this.

Additionally, that Dual wield hit is a normal swing, not a WS swing. This isn't so easy to test, but that's the general concensus.

When you say the best return from Raging Fists is 14% and the 2nd-best is 8.5%....it sounds like you're implying that you only get the second 5.5% if you land ALL the hits. Again, it's untrue. You can get a return of 13%...12%...etc. Likewise, with Raging Fists, your first hit can earn you 5.5%, your second hit can earn you 5.5%, and the remaining 3 hits can earn you 1% each.

I'm sorry you thought I implied that... I did not. Once again I'll reiterate that I don't know if RF is indeed 5 hits or 6, nor do I know typical tp returns. But I do know that if you miss the 2nd hit that gives normal tp return, that you missed the weakest of the swings in the WS (see above, about how I believe this, but really can't prove it).

[Tirrock]

Re: Raging Fist numbers

I wouldn't be too surprised to hear that unlike normal dual wielding, hand to hand's offhand damage is part of the WS. Although it's really hard to tell. I can certainly tell the difference in damage from a 5%TP return dragon kick and an 11% (or 12% if double attack goes off) dragon kick.

Although, that could also be explained by random crits and such. I've had some real oddball dragon kicks for less than 100 damage on ITs without buffs on... Then on the next monster I could hit for 500-600 on dragon kick.

[Jei]

Re: Raging Fist numbers

Since I switched to cross counter, I've gotten 15% as my max TP return with raging fist. It can also give me 13% 14% too. When I was using a faster weapon I would get only 14% max so I think it's the weapon's delay that makes that little difference there.