DRK/THF and a RNG :D

[Russta]

I finally got to try out DRK/THF yesterday after spending a week or two leveling up Thief when I joined Densetsu's party. Our renkei was Guillotine>Sidewinder and this is just two of the many insane results it produced. We were going through Terrigan tote's in less than a minute and I am in no doubt that Thief is now the best sub job for Dark Knight. Enjoy.

[Aldo]

DRK/WAR still has more "potential". I can't even say anything about /THF, still too weak and haven't hit 60 so can't test it out for myself Although, I am experimenting with the lv150 WS, Vorpal Scythe, more importantly how powerful it can be when used in conjuction with absorb dexterity. Rest assured if something crazy happens, I'll be sure to take a snippet and post it here. MInd you Vorpal Scythe is a 1hit critical, so it usually does crap damage, but sometimes can surpass even Guillotine, the more dex the more potential damage XD

[Russta]

Well there are several reasons I like having Thief subbed. For a start, everyone knows a DRK has lowish Accuracy and Thief's reasonably good accuracy and DEX really help the hits land more. Theres also the joys of no hate, which in my opinion, is the biggest factor. You are also helping to keep the hate on the tank which is obviously helpful in different situations. Here, I was stopping Densetsu getting reamed (he had lower HP than me and i'm a Taru with a -5%HP weapon). Samurai may be all well and good sub but I screwed up one Yokodama Guillotine in that party and the Crab came straight for me. Now, imagine three Guillotines in a row... in my opinion that would hold the party back. I will still raise Samurai up one day but I still don't think my opinion will change on this.

[Awntawn]

I prefer war over rng solely for shield break, it allows more hits and therefore faster killing. War seems more of a support attacker, whereas DRK and RNG are both primary attackers. It's better to have 1 primary and 1 support than 2 primary. 1.3 + 0.8 > 1 + 1. For a PT with a RNG, WAR is probably better than DRK for the same reason.

DRK/THF is better than DRK/WAR mainly due to hate problems, but if your PLD has any skill at all, I still prefer DRK/WAR. In the end, it's all just a personal preference, there is no right or wrong, cuz both work and have their advantages. Anyhow, probably the reason why you got so much hate when you missed yokodama was because you had a SAM tanking, not a PLD. Accuracy is not a problem; if you can't hit consistently it's equipment, not subjob.

[opinion]

Also, since scythe only needs 8 hits total (4 after guillotine), it seems to me that DRK/WAR charges TP faster than DRK/SAM, due to dual swing. I've even managed to land 6 hits (dual swing kicked in twice) on totetote's with guillotine before... that's 75% TP return and 880 damage without darkness (kinda dangerous though, if darkness was up i'd probably be pretty screwed XD). It only took 2 swings before I could go again. That + the fact that DRK/SAM lacks attack power boosting abilities and the defense boosts to keep us alive, I feel that DRK/SAM is a completely inferior and highly overrated as a DRK sub (just mine and some other's opinions). Once again, I must say that this is probably only possible with shield break in effect, which is once again why I like war better than rng

All fighting classes get hate, DRK/THF just so happens to work a little better than any other melee/THF (darkness). Still, you know that the attackers will get hit sometimes, and sometimes freak accidents happen and you can't turn tail no matter what. That's what the cover skill is for (not for mages....!!!). If the PLD can keep the tail 60% of the time, he's worth the 6th slot that he's filling up. You'll still have plenty of MP with refresh and ballad 1+2 to let you take a few smacks... If you don't, then it's just a party config error, not your sub. Perhaps DRK/THF will make the job a little easier on the PLD, but DRK/WAR will definately kill faster and get you faster exp IMO. As for the darkness issue; use judgement and get a cover right before going. It should stay up long enough for you to finish the monster.

Besides, limiting myself to 1 guillo every minute would be torture >< Still, when you're fighting monsters that hit REALLY hard, I guess DRK/THF is still the best way to go. I just prefer the potential though >< Can't wait to see that ultra-rare 7~8-hit guillotine... would be killer >< Imagine dual-swinging 4 times in a row and hitting all of them... that's how rare :dead: so it's stupid to expect something like that :p However, I've gotten 6-hits a couple of times, and it's like a 4 hit with darkness only in every way better (less hate, more TP, the fact that you can still use darkness right after, etc ><b).

[/opinion]

Note, though I still prefer war sub, doesn't mean I hate thf sub or anything. I still use it because there are some circumstances where you simply don't want to get hit, or in the case of a pansy-ass PLD. :p

As for hate, here's a little observation. It seems that before "adding" hate to yourself, first you are taking hate AWAY from the person who has the most. As a result, if you take a lot of hate with guillotine, the war will almost neutralize it with raging rush, therefore making it easier for the PLD to take the tail, even moreso if a magic burst lands. So basically, if the PLD waits until AFTER the renkei is completely finished before doing his taunt + cure4, he will have a much easier time taking the target again, rather than just taunting right after the DRK guillos, cuz then the war will do raging rush and the monster will stick to the WAR like glue. I can't confirm this, but it seems by what I've observed that this is how it works.

and Russta, if you're war sub's past 30 already then ignore this, but if it's like it is in your sig, I recommend you level it one more time, because 30 is when you get the one single attack up passive from WAR sub. Maybe you'll notice a difference, maybe not, but might as well give it a shot right?

[Russta]

Yup, it still is only 29 because, personally, I detest playing Warrior. Maybe when I go back to it one day i'll try a different approach to how I normally play it to stop myself falling to sleep.

Btw, Itchy was a War/Sam and was doing breaks>Raging Rush.

[Awntawn]

Originally posted by Russta
Btw, Itchy was a War/Sam and was doing breaks>Raging Rush.

Oh no wonder hehe. Well still, IMO war can't take hate as good as a PLD. You have taunt, warcry and plus high hate AF, as opposed to plus decent hate AF, taunt, rampart, sentinel, cure4, shield bash... Then again when you have an all attacker PT, you don't worry about hate, just kill shit as fast as you can

[Russta]

Originally posted by Awntawn


Oh no wonder hehe. Well still, IMO war can't take hate as good as a PLD. You have taunt, warcry and plus high hate AF, as opposed to plus decent hate AF, taunt, rampart, sentinel, cure4, shield bash... Then again when you have an all attacker PT, you don't worry about hate, just kill shit as fast as you can

In principle I agree with that but when people all have multi-hit weapon skills later on, a Paladin without a Thief in the party is completely useless. Paladins simply cannot do the damage enough by themselves so having to compete with the likes of Guillotine really kills their usefulness. A Warrior on the other hand is capable of doing decent damage and pissing of the enemy with his select weapons skills and the abilities you outlined. That is exactly how Itchy was playing. Hell, he barely even done Silent Concentration, only to take the hate back onto him when I pissed up Yokodama or Densetsu fired one too many arrows.

[VashtheStampede]

Is subing THF the best way to make a DRK fast and attack fast? Thanks.

[Awntawn]

My take

OK, after a long series of sub-levelling and school work, I finally had my first 2 parties as DRK/THF. I'm happy to say that both parties were quite successful, held back solely because of too many people camping the spawns. Both of these were in Onzozo killing coeurls, btw.

All I can say is this: Love it and hate it. I feel weaker than before, my normal swing taking a huge cut in damage, no dual swing, resulting in MUCH slower TP gain... it was everything I feared. It's like I've become a real THF more or less. I can't defender to save myself from a few points (though I don't need it anymore, i still feel less secure without it), I can't taunt; I was having trouble fishing a monster because it had aggroed a party and they started mass curing, generating lots of hate. As a result, I had the monster red so I could attack it, but I couldn't get the damn thing to follow me. I can't use berserk, more crippling to my basic attack.

On the other hand, I feel a lot better not getting hit; who doesn't? Also, DRK/THF is quite a bit more consistent. While I haven't broken my WAR sub 5-hit darkness records yet, I easily break 1000 damage almost every time I used darkness (DRK/WAR there's a huge range even with darkness up and all hits landing). The best thing is this: after transfering the hate of a darkness guillotine to the tank, it's perfectly safe to keep darkness up, unlike WAR sub where you have to hide behind the PLD and cancel everything that could get you killed. The same goes with last resort. SAM's penta does about 200~300 a hit, and it can do 3 in a row every 3 minutes. DRK/THF hit 1000, then does 200~300 a normal hit for the remainder of darkness. The damage produced in 1 6-minute interval darkness run easily matched the SAM's 2 3-minute continuous penta runs. The times WS'd outside using abilities seemed to match each other; 2 penta's to 1 guillotine, about the same damage. While keeping darkness up does drain your MP reserves a bit, it's only a little at a time, coupled with the fact that you can drain back most of it, it helps more than hinders, not to mention that you lose less HP than you would by getting hit, AND you get the extra damage output. DRK/THF, unlike DRK/WAR and DRK/SAM, charges TP a bit more slowly, so it depends on boosting the figures of those as high as possible. 3 absorbs before each yokodama should do well here, whereas they usually just slow you down with WAR and SAM sub. Agil, which you use all the time with any sub, increases the chances of all 4 hits hitting. STR and VIT will easily boost the damage by 100 points.

The first PT config was DRK/THF SAM/THF (they were THAT afraid of hate...) PLD/WAR RDM/BLM WHM/BLM BRD/WHM. It started off horribly, I was missing left and right, charging TP super slow and guillo dealing less damage than the sam's penta >< Hey, I hadn't played drk in half a month, give me a break. Eventually things started to pace up. I don't know how badly thf sub crippled SAM's damage, but I'm no longer feeling threatened. SAM's biggest specialty is the 3x penta, like I mentioned before how they can do every 3 minutes with their TP charge ability. As stated above, SAM's pentathrust damage isn't up to par; guillotine's high digits easily outdid the speed and quantity of SAM's WS's, not considering normal attacks. Was for WS without using. The sam spent a good deal of time whining in the PT how her damage couldn't match mine.

The second party was DRK/THF WAR/SAM PLD/WAR BLM/WHM WHM/BLM BRD/WHM. It was disgusting. My basic hit did maybe a little bit more than the WAR, 80 < 120 while he was doing 70 < 110... But when he pulled berserk, it was 90 < 150, easily crushing my digits. He also gained TP way faster. DRK/WAR could always match and beat WAR/SAM's normal attack, but here it was much different. WS, on the otherhand, was completely different. I ranged 450~800 (coeurls have tough armor) normally, and with darkness i was always 1000~1100, not to mention the spare darkness damage at the end, while the war's maximum was 400~500, averaging around 300. I'd like to take this time to state that black magic from a genuine black mage is still awesome at higher levels, and that RDM isn't necessary like bard. When you have a BLM in the party, use renkei, even if one class has to give up his super-good WS. A good party config lets you renkei with both class's strongest WS's. Anyhow, my job seemed less like an attacker and more like that of a real THF, used to control traffic, only I could do a lot more damage (THF uses WS on average once every 2 yokodamas. DRK/THF guillotines twice every yokodama), though I probably wasn't as good at controlling hate as a genuine THF. Still, not much can take the hate away from a darkness guillotine, and I got the mob to stay on the PLD 95% of the time, which I feel is more than enough.

It felt good to not get hit, to get high figures in damage often. People actually marvel over your high digits if they're not busy trying to keep your ass alive. On the other hand, I despised how it worked. Aside from draining and absorbing, I was playing just like a THF, not like an attacking class. I hate the lack of base firepower, even though with darkness and all we likely end up doing more total damage at the end. Before, as DRK/WAR, there was no THF, I'd invite another "solo WS" class like DRG or WAR and we'd just go at it, the PLD was working hard, monster juggling around thumping us every now and then, WS's flying all over the place, lots of flashy lights. It was a lot more fun than the average THF party, where everyone has a position where they have to stand and you can't move... DRK/THF brought it back to the rigid, boring system. I can't say that the EXP gain was any better than before, and it certainly doesn't help with invites (still had to make my own parties), it simply makes it more simple and basic for everyone into a format that they're used to...

Well, that's my take. For sake of convenience, I'll probably be using it more than WAR sub in level up parties, but unlike you and Xuande, I don't love it. I hate it; I think it's gay and should die, but it works and it works really well. (>_<)

[Aldo]

/vomit

[tongyang]

Since the topic here is "DRK/THF and a RNG", I'm posting a reply here instead of making a new topic. Last night because one of our set PT (of 3, I invite the rest) members overslept (he's a THF), and I could not find a replacement THF to replace him (imagine that!). So, I invited a DRK as a replacement.

The renkei, of course, is Guillotine > Sidewinder/Slugshot. This is the whole PT lineup:

WAR/SAM
DRK/SAM
RNG/SAM
RDM/WHM
BRD/WHM
WHM/BLM

Sounds good, right? Well, the PT didn't go bad at all, but I was generally disappointed in the DRK's damage :sweat:

Before the actual fights, I imagined that because of Shield Break, Guillotine should go 4-5 hits very often and the total damage would be around 1000. However, that wasn't the case.

Seems like even with Shield Break, the scythe hit rate still isn't all that high (probably about 60-70%, while my arrows/bullets hit about 90%) Guillotine (without darkness) would go for 350-650 each time, although with SAM sub's TP charging ability he can go 2 in a row sometimes. With darkness though, Guillotine goes for 900-1100 pretty consistently, but it is really a waste of MP for the mages...

Meanwhile, my sidewinder and slugshot are doing 1200-1600 consistently (granted it was against Darters ) and I can do 3 in a row by using side > midareuchi > side > TP charge > side and instantly kill a fly by myself (I can do this every 5 minutes, given Shield Break hits every time)

When I was PTing with the set PT THF, while his normal damage sucks, the initial fuidama does about 400-450, and yokodama dancing edge does 800-1100 consistently. Setting the target is also much easier, and everything is killed even faster while not wasting mages' MP curing darkness I guess Square really hates DRKs...

If I were a leader and a THF and a DRK is available, it's a no brainer for me, invite the THF. DRKs are really only made for weak tote mad chains... ><

And after the PT, I checked the total damage by the PT using that ffrep program, I did around 200000, and the dark did around 90000...

[snake868]

I think DRK/WAR will do more dmg than DRK/SAM. Also I was curious since your pt doesn't have a PLD how do u guys deal with the hate generated from the melee class ? :confused:

[Rent-A-Hamster]

Originally posted by tongyang

Seems like even with Shield Break, the scythe hit rate still isn't all that high (probably about 60-70%, while my arrows/bullets hit about 90%)

Why are you still using shield break if full break lowers evade rate as well as defense, attack etc. Is shield break more effective at lowering the monster's evade rate than full break?

[tongyang]

Originally posted by Rent-A-Hamster
Why are you still using shield break if full break lowers evade rate as well as defense, attack etc. Is shield break more effective at lowering the monster's evade rate than full break?

This is probably going to require a full FAQ, but here's just a simple explanation:

- Shield Break lowers evade much more than Full Break
- Flies and Crawlers have ice as their weakness (Shield Break is ice element, while Full Break is earth)

[Awntawn]

THF's don't do 800+1100 consistently on totetote... tote yes, but there's a 200~300 point difference in damage between tote and totetote. I've PT'd with your set PT THF before (I think I know who he is); he was good yes, but he didn't freak my pants off like a THF in your described PT would. Occasionally you'll fish in tote's in between totetote's and selective viewing will have you believe that they do it all the time. Some people I know consider 4 tote's to 1 totetote to be "fighting totetote's." Generally dancing edge should do 200~300 points more than guillo per hit (600~800 is being generous) (sometimes I broke even on my highs, no darkness), and normal yokodama does 200 points less, with respect to the monster's defense, and guillo should go around 2 times every yokodama with shield break, not including dual-swing or any other TP-charging aid. In terms of cumulative damage, there shouldn't be any competition between DRK and THF; THF's job is to keep hate. Also, 60~70% hit rate WITH shield break is just sad; that DRK probably sucks. Was his name Kasiru? He's notorious for being unimpressive... and for sucking.

Also, I'm once again unsure of DRK/SAM. With scythe, 8 hits gets exactly 100% TP; If I calculate correctly, 7 hits with DRK/SAM leave will you with 98%, so the passive store TP doesn't save you a swing; if I calculated incorrectly and it does save you a swing, it can only save one swing, whereas dual-swing kicks in randomly AND does more damage in the process, not to mention DRK/WAR's accuracy and attack power are MUCH higher. While you can go twice in a row with the TP charge ability, dual swing kicks in during the WS and occasionally will let you go within 10 seconds, not to mention it does more damage. Also, berserk adds a good 30~40 points of damage per swing, and up to 200 points of damage on guillotine. You should try to PT w/ a DRK/WAR and see how you like it; SAM sub is quite overrated... It seems SAM sub is more useful for mass chaining tote's, as totetote's armor will cut it's damage way short.

I've also noticed through experimenting that, aside from DRK/THF, it's much more useful for the party to use Darkness WITHOUT guillotine. Sure, you can get a high number, but it's only 4 swings before you cancel (or die), and the 4th swing of that was cut down. For darkness to be most effective, you want to hit with as much HP left as you can. With darkness up for the full minute, you can hit for a lot more than just 4 swings with less hate, and possibly even use guillo at the end of the minute (which usually kills the monster, assuming it lasts that long :sweat: ). Also, mages tend to feel less panicky if half of your HP bar doesn't just vanish, and will be less likely to overcure with Cure5 for 0 HP 3 times. Though it doesn't get the "OMFG" reaction, it is definately more effective (did I mention less hate? Yes I did, more damage for less hate, lovely isn't it?) Some mages understand this, and haste flies in the moment they see the black cloud. I love said mages :spin:

as RNG, you might want to try partying with a DRK/THF (getting back on topic) for hate purposes. They don't can't get the hate on quite as well as THF, but they do quite a bit more damage (unless they suck like Kenobi... damn I know a lot of sucky DRK's with each sub...) and can WS to renkei more often. As for THF/SAM... overrated like hell, and still not as fast. Best sub for THF must either be WAR or NIN. I know your set PT THF was taru THF/SAM no? Either he got a lot better, or you've been playing with some really crappy DRKs, or he was having a bad day (this was early 60's). Also, compared to DRG and SAM, how do the DRK you see perform? If they're all about the same, then I know the solution to your problem: You yourself are too goddamn powerful :p

Also, I've come to believe that your RNG is freakishly powerful compared to the average good RNG. 90% hit rate for RNG is, suffice to say, godly. I'm often told stories about "Sidewinder is mad powerful.... but 1 sidewinder hits out of every 4 ww" I know they've exaggerated, of course, but it misses enough for people to notice on normal terms.

If you look at Russta's pics, you can see that RNG is indeed powerful, but not as crazy as you claim. Notice he said they were tote's.

Your review:

DRK: damage per guillo on totetote is about right except the low end, 350 is pretty bad, I'd say 450~650 (450 would be a 3-hit, anything less with shield break deserves to be shot) is more like it, considering DRK/SAM doesn't have good charge-ups, should be able to go often enough to make up for the figures, however. 60~70% hit rate with shield break = bullshit, or crappy DRK.

THF: damage = Bullshit, or selective viewing

RNG: damage = Bullshit, or you're too good, or selective viewing. 90% hit rate = bullshit, or you're too good, or selective viewing.

Cumulative figures: Either flying killer is that useful, bullshit, that one DRK sucked like hell, or you are too damn powerful.

Selective viewing = "You only see what you want to see"

I'm trying to lean towards "Farplaner is exceptionally good" until proven otherwise, but the figures you list are just too crazy to be accepted as the norm. Maybe you should PT with another RNG and compare yourselves... Hell, 5 RNG + BRD go and each kill a totetote instantly, you can get 1 a minute; 1k exp every 5 minutes, 12k an hour...

EDIT: Sorry if I seem a little hostile, anal, or perhaps even stupid; I haven't played this game for too long and am suffering withdrawal. I'm no longer all "DRK is the best, blah blah" (in other words, I'm no longer THAT stupid), I'm under the belief that square had mathematically calculated DRG, DRK, and SAM to turn out around the same. Though I know RNG's damage is a whole different league, 200,000 : 90,000 is just too hard to accept as a normal figure. I do know for a fact, however, that most THFs are not as powerful as you described. They are overrated so much, and their cumulative damage is not as high as the other attacker in the party; they set hate, and that's it. I myself know this, but the more people go on spreading the rumor, the more and more overrated they get... People can say "You've never partied with a good THF before." Perhaps, but I can reply "I've partied with enough of them, and none of them have been 'good,' so it's safe to say that they are rare to the point of non-existance." I don't consider myself an exceptionally good DRK, but I get the job done well enough and make people happy enough to invite me again. Maybe it's not as good as some other class, but anyone who calls that "a stupid and worthless void" has only ever played the game in their head. On that note, imagine what an "insanely good DRK" would be like (hauberk, full thick armor, dark scythe + 1, argus necklace, sniper rings+1, behemoth cape...).