Best subjob for Blackmage

[AtraposBLM]

Originally posted by Patchinko
I'm using BLM/RDM (currently BLM33) only because my WHM isn't leveled up yet. After I get it to 37 I do plan to level up WHM also and may use that instead.

At this point I don't see much difference in the two subjobs, though I would have made a pretty ineffective backup healer w/o Cure II previously.

I also wonder how much the RDM Mgc. Atk. Bonus will help in the future.

One neat thing I can do as BLM/RDM right now is wear the Warlock's Earring for +1 MP recovered while healing. It's not much, but for 5k I'll take it.

RDM magic attack up trait won't stack with BLM's. BLM get more of the magic attack up traits than rdm's, and they get them sooner. So by the time you'd get Magic Attack Up I from /rdm, BLM would already have Magic Attack Up II naturally. The main advantage is fast cast, and later, gravity/phalanx/dispel.

[Mursk]

White Mages determin the effectiveness of their spells with MND, Black Mages determin their effectiveness through INT, if you want to lessen your dependancy on MND then go with a Red Mage, as a Black Mage you will have more enfeebling, Refresh and a lesser extant of Fast Cast, in my opinion the returns for Blm/Whm, likw Whm/Blm are too negligable,

I would rather suit my Part more with Enfeebles to space between Nukes, Refresh will help you keep up your Mana for both.

As a Whm all you would have are Heals and a lesser form of Enfeeble, not worth it in my opinion. it would be almost like a Dark Knight who chose Whm as his Subjob.

[Atendias]

Originally posted by Mursk
White Mages determin the effectiveness of their spells with MND, Black Mages determin their effectiveness through INT, if you want to lessen your dependancy on MND then go with a Red Mage, as a Black Mage you will have more enfeebling, Refresh and a lesser extant of Fast Cast, in my opinion the returns for Blm/Whm, likw Whm/Blm are too negligable,

I would rather suit my Part more with Enfeebles to space between Nukes, Refresh will help you keep up your Mana for both.

As a Whm all you would have are Heals and a lesser form of Enfeeble, not worth it in my opinion. it would be almost like a Dark Knight who chose Whm as his Subjob.

A RDM sub will give you slightly more INT, and (I think) additional enfeebles (Gravity and Dispel), at the cost of more mp from a WHM sub, Cure's at lower lvls and some very handy status-healing spells.

And you won't get Refresh as a BLM main, not untill the cap is 85, which is not going to happen in the nearest future atleast

[EDIT] Forgot to mention the auto-regen from WHM sub at lvl 50 BLM, it's nice to have

[Mursk]

Well, by Enfeebles I meant the skill cap, in which case Red Mages beat out Black Mages and White Mages,

I'm not sure if the bonus to Enfeebling makes alot of difference over a White Mages own but I think Black Mage/Red Mage is more sound, besides.. what Black Mage would willing tamper in good Magic? goody two-shoes I say.

[Sadeira]

White Mages determin the effectiveness of their spells with MND, Black Mages determin their effectiveness through INT, if you want to lessen your dependancy on MND then go with a Red Mage, as a Black Mage you will have more enfeebling, Refresh and a lesser extant of Fast Cast, in my opinion the returns for Blm/Whm, likw Whm/Blm are too negligable,

periods are your friends you should learn to use them well.

i don't get what you're saying. are you trying to say blm should sub rdm? your reasons for doing so are wrong.

1.) refresh is a level 41 spell. max level cap for a SUBJOB is 37. no one with rdm as a sub job will EVER be able to cast refresh at this point in time.

2.)on the enfeebling, blms have elemental and some enfeebling magic, but nothing we have will ever beat paralyze, silence, and slow. too good to miss out on really. luckily you get them as rdm too

3.) lessen dependency on mnd? you need it more now because of phalanx. phalanx's effectiveness depends on mnd. so does stoneskin. even if you sub rdm your dependency on mnd still doesn't change.

I would rather suit my Part more with Enfeebles to space between Nukes, Refresh will help you keep up your Mana for both.

WHICH IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR BLM/RDM TO CAST WITH A LEVEL CAP OF 75 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As a Whm all you would have are Heals and a lesser form of Enfeeble, not worth it in my opinion. it would be almost like a Dark Knight who chose Whm as his Subjob.

poisona, paralyna, silena, and blindna are not useful? i beg to differ. so your whm is silenced and you're not. who's going to save the poor guy an echo drop? not you cause you're subbing rdm! he's paralyzed and can't cast spells because the paralyze is too strong, who's goign to free him of his paralysis? not you cause you're subbing rdm!

subbing whm or rdm is useful in different situations. if you're going to fight mobs with particularly killer status effects (silence, paralyze) then you'll need to sub whm. if the mage line looks like blm, whm, and brd, subbing rdm would be preferrable for dispel and gravity. however, you're more likely to be subbing whm than rdm because it's hard to find a brd for any exp pt.

and the whm enfeebling is not useful for blm? hardly. blms have a c skill in enfeebling. and the enfeebling they cast will occasionally stick on even an incredibly tough mob. but rdm gets all enfeebling skills anyway but subbing rdm wouldn't have the mnd to make silence, paralyze, slow stick. subbing whm will give a blm the mnd to let those spells stick more easily when necessary.

from your post it's obvious you haven't ever experienced playing a mage job. and from the n/a comment on your level and the fact that you're saying "oh you can use refresh if you sub rdm, " i'll further assume that you have yet to play the game too. so i suggest you to not post if you're going to talk out of your ass about playing mage jobs since you haven't ever actually played one or even played ffxi. and if you say "oh but these are the reasons for you to play as rdm" then you are still talking out of your ass.

bottom line, DON'T TALK OUT OF YOUR ASS.

[Atendias]

Originally posted by Mursk
Well, by Enfeebles I meant the skill cap, in which case Red Mages beat out Black Mages and White Mages,

I'm not sure if the bonus to Enfeebling makes alot of difference over a White Mages own but I think Black Mage/Red Mage is more sound, besides.. what Black Mage would willing tamper in good Magic? goody two-shoes I say.

The only problem about that is that it is the main job that determines the cap when two jobs have similiar skills (in this case enfeebling), so a RDM sub won't give you any higher enfeebling skill cap than a WHM sub.

And in my opinion, a WHM sub is preferred over a RDM sub till atleast 64 when you get dispel with a RDM sub, and even then the party may benefit more from the status-healing spells that a WHM sub can provide.

However, if you want to play the game as a BLM/RDM, go ahead, noone's gonna stop you, and depending on your play style, you may do your job better that way

[EDIT] Word Sadeira

[Mursk]

My experience with the game is limited, and i'll admit so is my grammar. I've yet to understand where the Period is supposed to go oddly enough..

As it stands i've gotten Monk, Warrior and White Mage to level 9 or 10. I am not one to lie and claim I am high level, but noone is perfect and nor should you be.

Simularlly I resent the fact that you use the mistake on Refresh as the entire basis for a counter-argument, I merely stated my reasons (albeit sub-par) why I would say.. prefer Red Mages to be Sub Jobs of White Mages.

Never had I said "u chose da whm sub omgah lolz u sux" in any of my words so I hardly understand why you would take it as a slant against those that use the the Blm/Whm configuration.

In closing my brother is a 61 Rdm/Whm (rank 6, full AF/Spell List), I am truly new to this game and even though he learns me well my experiences are limited, I won't deny this either so take it with a grain of Salt.

[Sadeira]

Simularlly I resent the fact that you use the mistake on Refresh as the entire basis for a counter-argument, I merely stated my reasons (albeit sub-par) why I would say.. prefer Red Mages to be Sub Jobs of White Mages.

refresh is not my basis for my argument. it simply is one of my points of argument. the basis for my argument is why whm is a better sub for a blm than rdm is. the fact that i mentioned refresh twice is because you mentioned refresh twice. there were other points to my argument besides refresh like my 3 paragraph counter argument to your "whm healing spells are not worth it." but i guess the glaring all caps and exclamation points about refresh being unavailable for use as rdm prevents you from reading my entire post, right, and makes you assume that refresh is my primary point of argument? or the 2 of the 3 counter arguments to your period-less paragraph?

In closing my brother is a 61 Rdm/Whm (rank 6, full AF/Spell List), I am truly new to this game and even though he learns me well my experiences are limited, I won't deny this either so take it with a grain of Salt.

and you are not your brother. just because you're brother is level 61 and rank 6 doesn't make you as experienced as your brother. you don't absorb his ffxi experience and have the same knowledge that he does. the difference between you and your brother is that your brother is not writing your replies. if he were, i'm sure he would have put up a much better argument for blm/rdm than you would have.

also, not to be too much off topic but your brother is subbing whm. most rdms sub blm for many reasons but primarily for the conserve mp trait that blms have. rdms use immense amounts of mp (even if they are subbing blm) but your brother chooses to sub whm which results in the loss of the opportunity for him to save mp among other things. why? for the same reasons why whm is a better sub for a blm than rdm is. because subbing whm for a mage is job gives him the tools to over come "oh shit" situations than blm would. whether you're in an exp pt or an hnm battle, "oh shits" happen often and they MUST be overcome if you don't want you or your party to die.

also, subbing whm gives your brother more mnd which make paralyze and slow MORE POWERFUL. spells which you say are not worth it.

My experience with the game is limited, and i'll admit so is my grammar. I've yet to understand where the Period is supposed to go oddly enough..

i commend you on your use of the period on this last post.

and for those of you who are still unable to use the period, please refer to the following:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php3?date=2002-10-11&res=l

[Mursk]

I think at one point I could have agreed with what you are saying, but what was stated was a flaming response to a post that was met with good intentions.

The post that I suplimented after my previous in counter to your own (where you claimed I spoke out of my Ass and felt it neccisary to speak in full caps) seemed to show alot of childish immaturity.. in the suggestion you may wish to reread my post where I said:

My experience with the game is limited, and i'll admit so is my grammar. I've yet to understand where the Period is supposed to go oddly enough..

and..

In closing my brother is a 61 Rdm/Whm (rank 6, full AF/Spell List), I am truly new to this game and even though he learns me well my experiences are limited, I won't deny this either so take it with a grain of Salt.

This proves to me you are merely looking for an excuse to flame a person no matter how rude and/or silly it makes you appear to be, I stated this as a basis of comparison that means:

1. I am low level.

2. I am well learned via internet or otherwise of the Game and such my opinion should not be trumped so easily.

So.. before we jump down someone's throat be carefull to read their posts and balance the opinions they make.

And for your sake, for my sake. I will be the better man.. I don't wish to be banned and i'm sure you do not either. so I will no longer argue with your likes. please do not direct comments to me any further, Sadeira.

[Prefect]

Originally posted by Sadeira
3.) lessen dependency on mnd? you need it more now because of phalanx. phalanx's effectiveness depends on mnd. so does stoneskin. even if you sub rdm your dependency on mnd still doesn't change.

Phalanx's effectiveness depends purely on Enhancing skill.

Stoneskin does depend on MND (and Enhancing). Stoneskin's formula goes in 3 stages; in the top end phase where it absorbs more than 200 damage, each point of MND is worth 3 points of damage.

[LockeCole]

Please don't sub summoner for exp parties . Apart from losing the ability to cure, you also lose Sneak and Invisible. It is extremely hard for 2 mages to cover the whole party, and please don't blame people if they don't have medicine. Garuda Blinkga is nice but you will run outta mp very fast if you use it constantly. With dark staff and at least one mp refresher you should have enough mp to match the other mages. I've been in a situation where the black mage had so much mp, but hey the white mage and red mage were totally burnt out so his full mp bar was just sitting there while we were injured.

Between /whm and /rdm, I'd say white mage is superior till 64, and then red mage becomes a viable option. I personally started as a white mage so I know it's nice when a blm helps heal a little, so that's the route I'll go. Although I think it totally depends on the mob you fight, specially bone with AOE Blind and Darters/Skimmers with AOE damage where /whm will help.

[Mursk]

Summoner as a Subjob is really only viable in my opinion for White Mages, when your task is to Heal everyone in the Party, keep the regenerating at a steady pace, curing ailments and tossing out the occaisonal debuff when a Red Mage is not around to do it for you.

For this reason Summoners make good Subjobs, but then-again only for non-Taru Races as they already have exceptional mana and would better benefit with a Job for the MND they lack.

I guess I always figured if Black Mages have too much Mana they arn't casting enough, but looking back on conditions where hate has not been locked down, a few cures here and there won't hurt.

FFXI could benefit from more Mage Jobs that offer more viable choices and rolls appart from the 'Healing, Tanking, Damaging' Trifecta people hate to love.

What of more complete groups however? i'd like to understand in more complete defenition (without the unnecisary flames) the roll of a Blm/Whm when the Party has a Whm, Brd and Rdm, by that point the healing power given is excessive. What is the point of it when there is no exceptional need to spot heal?

[Sadeira]

What of more complete groups however? i'd like to understand in more complete defenition (without the unnecisary flames) the roll of a Blm/Whm when the Party has a Whm, Brd and Rdm, by that point the healing power given is excessive. What is the point of it when there is no exceptional need to spot heal?

why blm/whm (without "flames")

1.) although rdm/whm is popular, most rdms will have only blm appropriately leveled as their subjob of choice thus limiting their overall healing power. unless you have a brd, you'll always need a rdm if you want fast exp. they only have bar-status and bar-element for themselves they cannot be used to target other players. they have no status healing of their own and simply being able to cure is not enough. i wouldn't want to be the only healer in party where we are fighting crawlers and flies without a whm and i'm subbing blm. which i have done before as rdm. the party configuration was pld/drk/drk/blm subbing smn/rdm subbing blm (me) because the party leader was dumb because he refused to let me go back to jeuno to let me change my sub. no one could cure status or throw out curaga for flies so battles were much too difficult so i just left the party after 2 or 3 battles.

2.) so the whm doesn't take immense amounts of hate with curaga. simply put, there's a ton of mobs you exp off of that spam aoe attacks in almost every battle. flies, bones, ghosts, weapons, and golems. the last thing you'd want is for the whm to take the hate and die from all their curing. one of the jobs of the blm/whm is to support curing and not let the whm die. a whm gets raise 2 around level 58 (or 56 i don't quite remember). however, unless there's a nearby whm around the same level, the whm can only accept a raise (or reraise 1) if they die thus they lose immense amounts of exp. but if a blm/whm dies but the whm is still alive, then the blm can just accept raise 2 and move on since they will not lose as much experience compared to a raise 1. you just have to sacrifice yourself for the whm.

also, there are situations when curing is more important than nuking. for example, when you have monster adds and one of the mobs takes a while to be put to sleep. or when a fly spams its aoe attack like i mentioned previously. you just have to assess the situation and do what is necessary.

also status cures are extremely important. you can't let one person alone do all the status curing. especially if the whm himself is affected by status such as silence or paralyze.

3.) with a brd, you can feasibly sub rdm but given the brd's mp pool, you won't get much curing out of him. at best they can throw out status cures but they cannot throw out as many cures like a real mage can. and what about ballad? a brd will probably hardly ever have ballad on themselves in battle because they will have melee songs on them for the melee or bewitching etude.

you say rdm is a better sub than whm for a blm. while it looks good on paper, in the practical sense, it really isn't that much better. everyone could tell you the pros of whm over rdm and you wouldn't not believe anyone till you have tried it yourself. so rather than continue posting about your opinions of rdm's superiority as a sub job for blm, might i suggest that you play the blm job and use both rdm and whm as sub jobs. perhaps you can get a better feel for the blm job/subjob combination in the practical sense. then you can see why so many blms are so adamant about subbing whm as opposed to rdm.

although i haven't used rdm as a sub in an exp party, i have used it at an nm. i must say, i did not like it. the first time i used it was when my ls went off to fight bomb queen. my party was one of the princess killers (bomb queen fights invlove a lot adds called bomb princess and princes who explode before you even kill them. bomb queen itself never explodes.) the party configuration was pld/drk/bst/rdm sub blm/smn/and me blm sub rdm. it didn't work out very well. the smn was left with the duties of stoneskin/barfira/and curing and the rdm and i could not. after a while, the smn could no longer keep up with all his tasks and ran out of mp. he missed casting a barfira and my party died. which resulted in the other 2 parties in our alliance having to escape because the other princess party could no longer handle the fast rate of princess repops. the battle would have gone much much more smoothly if had chosen to sub whm instead of rdm. this would have left the smn to focus on keeping earthen ward and curing as opposed to doing all 3 tasks. now, instead of celebrating a victory, we have to get another bomb queen core (ugh.).

at hnms, whm is definitely the more useful subjob, especially at vivian, cassie, and serket. you don't know what will happen at hnms and you should expect the worst and having whm subbed allows you to be ready if bad things happen.

[Patchinko]

Originally posted by LockeCole
It is extremely hard for 2 mages to cover the whole party, and please don't blame people if they don't have medicine.

People should be bringing their own powders/oils by the later half of their levels. Maybe it's just a pet peeve of mine, but I personally don't like running through Teriggan having to risk my own health because someone didn't feel like spending the money on obligatory meds. They aren't that expensive (even as a RDM I bring them myself in case of emergency).

RDM/SMN is possible too, though I don't think it's very useful compared to /WHM or /BLM.

BLM/SMN is kind of silly, in my opinion. The speed of experience does not depend on the BLM's MP, so subbing it for excess MP isn't a very good reason, especially considering BLM already has a very large amount of MP.

[Sadeira]

at level 70+ EVERYONE (including mages) will need oils and potions if they go to ro'maeve or tu'lia