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  • Tank Type Utility (PLD, WAR, NIN, MNK)

    There seem to be a lot of discussions as to which is the best tank. A lot of people have mentioned it being situational--but here is how I perceive it. For a long time (ok, my entire journey on WHM >.>) I was of the mentality PLD > all but other things will work if you cant seem to find one. However, I am now leveling RNG with my husbands MNK--he has a 65 and a 32 PLD (2 characters, obviously) so hes quite used to the tanking thing. He's also a very good PLD (by that, I mean making sure the mob is on him and, if its ever not, doing something about it). He thought I was kidding when I said I wanted him to main tank after 30 on MNK, because, well, MNKs aren't tanks.

    After looking into the skills, stats, abilities and parsings of the jobs, as well as experience in their hate holding abilities, I've reached the following conclusions. This is not to say Im saying one is better than another, or advocating the use of non-traditional tanks in every situation--it is rather situational overall what is the best tank. I agree that it will likely be based on actual level too, not just comparison of player to mob level, but 1-75 this is how I see it.

    PLDs tank ~IT-IT++ beautifully. Reason: PLD hate generation is less dependent upon the level difference between the PLD and the mob, however, higher level mobs will hit too hard to make decent exp chains and will drain more hate from the PLD in damage than it can generate. Similarly, PLDs cant generate significantly more hate on lower mobs than higher ones, yet, the damage output of your damagers will go up drastically thus causing more hate holding problems. For Exp purposes, PLD wins in terms of dmg taken vs hate holding capacity on most typical Exp mobs. PLDs keep hate primarily through Flash, Cures and Shield Bash/Sentinel/Rampart, etc. IT mobs will hit enough to build significant cure agro and the other forms of hate control are almost completely disregardant of level.

    On higher level mobs a NIN, I believe (or a WAR/NIN after 74...maybe earlier, depending on skill, equip and how well the PT has hate swapping down) is the better tank. This is due in large part to the fact that after a certain disparity in mob/player level, the tank will be getting hit so hard that they simply do not want hate all of the time or they will die or at least have a messy PT--this is where NIN helps, by taking almost no damage you have solved what becomes increasingly the bigger problem on harder hitting mobs when survivability becomes more important than flawless hate control (as long as hate control is "good enough").

    On lower level (-VT-IT+) mobs is where, I believe, MNK and WAR tanks shine. (Note: You could, debatably, add SAM to this tank class, but I haven't looked into it as much as the others, so Im omitting it) This is due to their primary hate holding form--damage output. I read somewhere a WAR say he had , effectively, tanked his way this far--he wasn't going to stop and become DD only since he could deal damage almost as well as he could if he was dedicated to it as when he tanks (not as well, but still dish out the pain). MNKs are basically in that same situation--though with, Id argue, even less of a diminished capacity to deal damage while tanking than WARs. MNKs also do, proportionally more damage to mobs this level range than higher mobs compared to other jobs as a result of having two weaker hits versus one more powerful one. Comparing the two, MNKs have higher VIT(tied for highest with PLD) and Evasion (Tied in third with SAM, behind THF and NIN), where as WARs have higher DEF and AGI. MNKs and WARs are both second teir damagers and second teir tanks--IMO, their true power shines when they can effectively combine the two into one task.

    While player vs. mob level is one major factor in determining an "ideal tank," mob type is another. Things that hit hard and slow (Manticores, etc) are undeniably a NINs playground, where as things with blink-stripping AoEs (Weapons, etc) or with hard hitting, non-blinkable specials (Triple bats, etc) are generally bad for them. MNKs , IMO, are better than other choices on things that hit fairly fast but not quite as hard because they have no spells to interupt with being hit often and lower damage hits, in general, are more dampered by VIT than DEF, however things with high hitting specials usually cause MNKs to become MP drains rather than viable tanks. Paladins shine on your "average" Exp mobs--ones that don't hit so hard than blink is completely necessary or so weak that their hate generation and utility (high def, high vit) is minimalized or so fast they can't get a spell off or so slow that a NIN would have far more shadows than they would ever practically need.

    Paladin is the most versatile tanking class, fitting into most situations, followed by NIN. However, other classes can overall outperform a NIN or PLD in certain situations. From some parsed data, when set MNK tank, he only does roughly 5-10% less dmg per fight, but takes anywhere between 15% less and 20% more damage than PLDs in the same level range/mob type depending on level range/mob type who is doing considerably less damage to the mob. No other class, however, comes close to comparing to PLDs in emergency situation tanking, though other classes can, depending on situation, hold their own in normal tanking.

    Factors contributing to damage reduction:
    PLD: Tied for highest VIT, has highest Def of any class. Has average evasion and lowest AGI. Flash, Sentinel, Rampart, Shield Bash. Access to highest levels of defensive equipment. Shield, parry.
    NIN: Utsusemi, second highest Evasion/AGI. Strong Paralyze, Blind, Slow spells. Parry.
    WAR: Average VIT and AGI, above average Evasion and defense. Defender. Access to most of the highest defensive armours. Parry and sometimes shield.
    MNK: Counter, Guard, Chakra, Dodge, third highest Eva, tied for highest VIT. Average AGI and Def.

    Factors contributing to hate generation/keeping:
    PLD: Cures, Flash. Shield Bash, Sentinel, Rampart, Cover.
    NIN: Strategic use of Ninjitsu.
    WAR: Damage output, Warcry.
    MNK: Damage output, Boost, Chi Blast.
    San D'orian Taru ~ All the courage of Sandy, all the cute, fluffy qualities of a taru.

  • #2
    What lvs the monk? I've seen a galka mnk getting raped trying to tank at lv50+ and thats the only PT I've ever been in with a mnk so cant comment much.

    I'd have said Pld was the best tank for the longest time as I was one but when I started lving Drk PT was always Nin Drk Thf and 3 mages. Ninjas are the best tanks by far I would say, as far as PTing goes to lv53 at least anyway hehe. Dont know how ninjas suit up tanking agains HNM's. A war/nin is some good damage and tanking but until lv74 they have to rely on Utsemilv12 one lol, cant remember name) so they dont get blink up enough if the mobs are attacking fast and then mages have to spend more time healing instead of nuking. PTing with a ninja tank the mages (if theres a Rdm or Brd) always have next to full MP by the time you pull another mob, and thats pulling like within the next 10-15secs of the mob dieng so you can get alot of exp in little time as you could imagine.

    Only problem I could imagine if nin tanking would be if a mob linked blink would run out so quick. Blm with sleep can stop that problem though and seens as the mages have alot of MP, if theres no Blm i suppose the nin could handle it with alot of healing/blinking.

    I'm only talking from expereince to lv53 though. I always tanked with my Pld to 57 ^^ Plds were better back then anyway mwhahahahahahahhahahahaa
    75 Mnk Sam | 70 Drk | 40 Blm | 37 Nin Rng Thf War
    Woodworking 91.9+2
    ZM:Complete CoP:Complete ToAU:27

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    • #3
      I agree with most of this post. However, in my opinion to achieve optimal xp (7-10k xp/hour), NIN is a must. PLD and MNK will just get hit too hard, plain and simple. A good PT with NIN as main tank and plenty of DD (RNG, perhaps some BLM), will be able to kill IT+++'s fast enough to still achieve chain 4's and 5's. Constant fast chaining of VT's will never even match this kind of xp (see sig). I agree that MNK will shine against VT and low IT, but I don't honestly see this as a factor if you're trying to create the ideal PT setup.

      I applaud your originality and willingness to try something different however. But there's one factor I think you forgot to mention:
      NIN can do good damage as well.

      Not as high as totally offensive MNK or WAR, but if your MNK is tanking, he would probably be using more defensive setup anyway. Compared to other DD's I've PT'ed with, our spt NIN does VERY respectable damage, sometimes only 50 less avg damage per battle than supposed "damage dealers."

      This will only become more pronounced past 70 when NIN get better katanas and their final dual wield upgrade. The higher level you go, the larger the disparity between the damage dealing capabilities between a PLD and NIN. This is another bonus to NIN.

      Also, can you go into more depth about your PT, such as level and what you fight? I totally believe that MNK can be a good tank at low-mid levels, but at high levels when monsters are hitting PLD's for over 100 dmg (so the MNK for 150's probably) and specials like sickle slash, screwdriver, jet stream, etc... I'd assume it would just get harder and harder for a MNK to main tank.

      Just my opinion, what do you think Lynsy?
      I believe in karma. Anyone I treat badly probably deserved it.

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      • #4
        For all the wordiness of this post, its content can sadly be boiled down to a few short statements: Paladin and Ninja are the best tanks, trumping each other depending on mob type and party configuration, but since you can not always find one of these jobs Warrior will do. Any job subbing Warrior (such as Monk) can also tank if you are not concerned with how much exp you gain. I sincerely hope nobody takes Lynsy's post as a cue to choose Monk as a tanking job. Really is there any new information here?

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        • #5
          Actually, the post was made in response to an discussion being had on another thread that was actually so ridiculously off topic, I made a new thread.
          The reason it was an issue, my set MNK, is stil low -mid levels (40 ATM) though I did use a MNK tank at ~67 in Gustav Tunnel a few times. We got 6.5k/hour. I want to try a 75 MNK tank tonight on my WHM and see how it goes, but that will depend on if I have time to XP tonight or not.
          No, I do not agree that MNKs are the best tanks--I do agree that they will do the job roughly as well as a WAR (MNK has much higher VIT and Evasion, and slightly lower DEF and AGI--though the gaps where MNK is superior are greater than where WAR is).
          Am I advocating a MNK tank in most situations? No. Am I saying most situations that people are willing to use non-Ni Utsusemi WAR tanks a MNK tank will prefer about equally as well.
          As far as tank affecting pull rate--that depends on your PT IMO. I have gotten 7k/hour with PLD tanks when I was on WHM--but only because of how my WHM is. I can count on one hand the number of times since ~L50 my MP has held back pulls. I have had Pts with no refresh (other than VC and SMN sub refresh, only using Juices if something went wrong) and still managed to conserve MP in such a way that, even with noone else curing, I never dropped below ~700/1100 MP unless something went wrong (adds, etc). Most PTs, I never get below 800-900MP. If your WHMs MP isnt holding back the pulls, what is? The PLD(if you use PLD), the BLMs, kill rate or mob spawn rate. In many Pts I have had with people that I trust at high level it has been the PLD MP holding back pulls--but that is a problem easily tanken care of and one virtually non-existant in most situations. If your BLM is sesnsible and you have enough damage elsewhere in your PT, their MP is more than sufficient. In most situations its kill rate and spawn rate that, more than anything else, hold back pull rate. If your tank is dealing high damage, this helps with the kill rate tremendously. Nothing much can be done about spawn rate beyond picking Exp spots carefully.

          Ultimately, ideal set-up (on my server) is a pipe-dream ATM. I'm on hades, where noone wants to XP--the vast majority of world shifters did so for HNM or social purposes and aren't XPing much, or they are newbies who, regardless of how ideal PT set up is, will not be able to perform to a level that will allow that due simply to a lack of experience.

          I agree that in most situations, level ranges and mob types, that anything over 6k/hr is only attainable by a >very< good PT with a very good NIN tank--not never, just not often done with other tanks. I am in no way stating that MNKs make godly tanks, I am however stating that I can get 4.5-5k/hr rather reliably with one, which is slightly above average and good enough for me most of the time. Additionally, no PLD, WAR or NIN can hold hate off me if I go all out as a RNG. The MNK has only ever lost hate to me once, even without a THF, unless he had stopped provoking for a bit so I could use Barrage to turn it for SATA or something. A NIN tank who does 1/2- damage as I do + provoke wont hold hate off me as well as a MNK who does 20-30% less damage than I do and provokes.

          IMO, a MNK is as Viable a tank 1-73 as a WAR is, and the point of a really skilled and well equipped X will do better than a shitty Y. To me, trusting my tank in both skill and personally is imperative to my feeling comfortable in a PT (likely as a result of having a set PLD for my WHM who was, according to far more than just myself, one of the top few PLDs on the server--and a close personal friend).

          If you, for some creepy reason I wouldn't understand, like to follow my post habits, you will note that I made a post recently about Galka WHM/WAR versus Taru PLD/WAR, set them up in equipment and compared the too--and basically came to the conclusion that, as far as tanking goes, it is far closer than one would imagine a WHM and PLD should be.

          I do agree that cookie cutter and ideal set-ups serve their purpose--it allows for the largest versatility with the least ammount of change. I am not advocating changing that, the ingame social system would be completely askew and would make making a PT a nightmare--I am saying that if you have a set or semi-set, then some things work wonders that normally wouldnt.
          San D'orian Taru ~ All the courage of Sandy, all the cute, fluffy qualities of a taru.

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          • #6
            The last Pt I had with MNK tank was MNK, DRK, RNG, RDM, BLM, WHM. We fought Crawlers at first, then we replaced DRK and WHM with PLD and SMN. A bit later, we moved to beetles. XP slowed slightly on beetles, but went from ~4.5k to ~4k (well, except for a stunt where the SMN we had thought hed try out Shiva's sleepga in the middle of non-agro, highly linking mobs that happened to be at camp~.~) This was 36-39 (we duoed out the few K to L40 the next day). We tried moving up to harder Crawlers, which we could take just fine and with not horrible down time--but they just took forever to kill, though it didn't make a noticable decrease in XP/time, it did make a notable increase in how boring it was .

            The time I used a MNK tank on WHM was MNKx3, WHM, BRD, RDM. SC was Spinning Attack > Howling Fists > Dragon Kick (I believe). PT was ~67, 2 MNKs were WAR sub, other was THF sub (Did SATA Dragon kick on the other MNK). Was consistant chain 6s, about 40% chain 7s...and the time they managed to link a lot during pull and all MNKs 2hred on bones...was chain 9...Granted, MNKs on bones isn't necessarily comparable to MNKs on other things...but, it worked well.

            All in all, I agree with Rugal--If your goal is simply to get max XP/hour, anything but NIN is ridiculous. I do agree that tanking MNKs are not as effective as other choices--but the post was made in response to the question being posed of why I used a MNK tank and how it worked in comparison to other things. Cookie cutter is a necessity (sorry to all the 1337 DRG/SMNs out there, its true) but when you are working with a partial set, the utility diminishes.
            San D'orian Taru ~ All the courage of Sandy, all the cute, fluffy qualities of a taru.

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            • #7
              Sorry for being offtopic, I already posted on topic though^^ but in imac2much;s sig he got 392 exp and says about new exp limits? not played in a while, how much can you get now?
              75 Mnk Sam | 70 Drk | 40 Blm | 37 Nin Rng Thf War
              Woodworking 91.9+2
              ZM:Complete CoP:Complete ToAU:27

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              • #8
                I agree with what Lynsy says, and although MNK is not generally considered a tank, I can understand that in certain conditions MNK can tank very well. Also, when fighting skeletons in gustav and KRT, 3 MNK parties are just perfect. I mean, even PLD's will have trouble holding hate from gungho and well equipped monks by that stage... so since the MNK already has most of the aggro, might as well bring a couple more and quicken the kill speed :p

                Well, as you know, the most bonus xp you can get from xp chains (chains 5+) is 50% tops. From level 1~49 the max base xp you can get is 200 xp. The max base xp from 50~59 is 250. The max base xp from 60~75 is 300, although I've never seen this. Thus after level 60, the max xp you can get is technically 450.

                Note that your entire PT must be past that level (everyone level 50+ for 250, or 60+ for 300) for the increased base xp. Also, this doesn't mean that monsters give more xp than before... with a normal PT and non-NIN tanks, you will almost never see these xp increases. However, with a good PT and a competent NIN, you can fight monsters that PT's 5 levels above you are fighting, and get a lot more xp for your efforts. It's S-E's way of motivating you to fight IT+++ I guess, but it really only benefits NIN PT's. I'd say well equipped RNG (with BRD) or some BLMs (with all elemental staves to minimize resists) are a must, since normal melees and such won't be able to touch IT+++'s.
                I believe in karma. Anyone I treat badly probably deserved it.

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                • #9
                  Another discussion on tanking:

                  http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/sho...threadid=49169

                  Tanking is -very- situational. But there's some figures and discussion of a RDM tanking for your entertainment.
                  Ruic the Red - Retired
                  Thanks to FFXI and the community for the good times.
                  Moved on to WoW.

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                  • #10
                    PLDs tank ~IT-IT++ beautifully. Reason: PLD hate generation is less dependent upon the level difference between the PLD and the mob, however, higher level mobs will hit too hard to make decent exp chains and will drain more hate from the PLD in damage than it can generate. Similarly, PLDs cant generate significantly more hate on lower mobs than higher ones, yet, the damage output of your damagers will go up drastically thus causing more hate holding problems. For Exp purposes, PLD wins in terms of dmg taken vs hate holding capacity on most typical Exp mobs. PLDs keep hate primarily through Flash, Cures and Shield Bash/Sentinel/Rampart, etc. IT mobs will hit enough to build significant cure agro and the other forms of hate control are almost completely disregardant of level.

                    On higher level mobs a NIN, I believe (or a WAR/NIN after 74...maybe earlier, depending on skill, equip and how well the PT has hate swapping down) is the better tank. This is due in large part to the fact that after a certain disparity in mob/player level, the tank will be getting hit so hard that they simply do not want hate all of the time or they will die or at least have a messy PT--this is where NIN helps, by taking almost no damage you have solved what becomes increasingly the bigger problem on harder hitting mobs when survivability becomes more important than flawless hate control (as long as hate control is "good enough").
                    You bring up a good point but only one side of it.

                    A paladin will take more damage from higher and higher mobs. However, their hate generation remains pretty much unaffected.

                    With ninja, it's opposite. A ninja can negate IT++'s higher offense, sort of, but their hate generation will be severely depleted. Their damage and accuracy will drop, their debuffs will be resisted, and their elemental ninjitsu will hit for little damage. Also, mobs much higher than you gain a lot of accuracy, so there's that to worry about.

                    In a party that is exp'ing off of stuff so high, it's going to have to be something like multiple BLMs or multiple RNGs to really make the most of it. These classes' damage output is not as affected by the increased mob level, so hate is going to be a constant worry.

                    I guess ninja is still a better tank when you're going that high over your level, but your RNGs or BLMs better have their buffs up because hate is not going to be solid.

                    If I had to fight IT++, it'd be something safe like crabs. These are easy to tank, and with multiple BLMs your damage output will remain high.

                    Other mobs are not so nice when they are too high. My static started on Elder Gobbues at 62/63. I got lucky for the most part, but our WAR got hit for 1300 damage Beatdown.




                    MNK can tank, yes. If you have enough MP regen and the mobs are on the low side/are the right type, MNK/WAR and WAR tank parties can be fairly effective and a lot of fun. WAR tank is probably still better because it has higher defense and can use /NIN sub to reduce damage. Maybe even reduce damage a lot if it's post-59 with a bard in the party.
                    Nusayb, Galka, Fairy Server- 63WAR,
                    70NIN, 37THF, 66MNK, 25DRG, 18RNG, 16SAM, etc. WAR AF Complete. NIN AF Complete. MNK AF Complete.

                    http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?48681

                    ????, Hume Female, Fairy Server- 29BLM, 21WHM, 37THF, 32WAR, 31DRK, etc.

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                    • #11

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                      • #12
                        Re: Tank Type Utility (PLD, WAR, NIN, MNK)

                        Originally posted by Lynsy
                        MNKs and WARs are both second teir damagers and second teir tanks--IMO, their true power shines when they can effectively combine the two into one task.
                        While tanking



                        Second tier what?
                        Attached Files

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                        • #13
                          If monks and warriors are second-tier damage dealers, who's first? :confused:
                          Nusayb, Galka, Fairy Server- 63WAR,
                          70NIN, 37THF, 66MNK, 25DRG, 18RNG, 16SAM, etc. WAR AF Complete. NIN AF Complete. MNK AF Complete.

                          http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?48681

                          ????, Hume Female, Fairy Server- 29BLM, 21WHM, 37THF, 32WAR, 31DRK, etc.

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                          • #14
                            Rangers.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Coinspinner
                              Rangers.
                              In other breaking news, the sun is hot, and water is wet.

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