Hey, Mods-- sticky THIS!!!

[Ipwnzuall!!!111]

Alright, let's just get this over with.

There's this post on the Job board that by some miracle of Satan (or whatever fierce and evil diety you believe in) managed to get a Sticky. The content of this post is completely and 100% ridiculous, and as much as I like these forums and respect the Mods for keeping them in tip-top shape, I'm embarassed and appalled by this post, as a player, and a human being. The aforementioned post is the second most ignorant thing I have EVER heard (next to another argument about a job/subjob combination, which was actually... this was supposedly passed off as reasoning now... what it said was, "You could, but I dont think you wanna do that." o_O Behold the powers of logic.).

I digress... Here's the post:

Keep in mind that even though I'm being very harsh here, I'm really not trying to flame this person (when I use "you" I mean the indefinite "you")... I'm just trying to enlighten my fellow gamers to a little thing called "common sense," and let you all in on how to respect eachother, whereas some of you are clearly deficient.

"About arguing over Job Combinations
In FFXI there is this thing called "JOB".

Okay, this I follow...

You have a main job which outlines your main purpose.

Gotcha...

The point of a support job is to SUPPORT your main purpose and be better at it.

Funny... I thought it was called a SUB-job, whilst the word "sub" really has little implication of supporting things, but oh well... as long as we're changing the rules, can I be the god of Tonberry's?

Myth:
We can be any job combination and anything will work, don't listen to anyone. It doesn't matter.

Fact:
Not everything works and it does matter. To be better at your job, you must pick a suitable support job.

I take it that there was a spell of some new kind of dyslexia, wherein "Myth" means "Fact" and "Fact" means "Myth." Last I checked, any job combination would work... at least none of my combinations froze up the game when I tryed them, and I could be any of them. It's true that some combinations are less effective at killing monsters and gaining experience than others, but that's about as far as you can take it.

There is such thing as a right and wrong job-combination.

Would you please list them, then? Seriously, such an idea is totally absurd. You won't get a spanking from your mommy once she finds out that you made a DRK/BRD, nor will god smite you with lightning. Welcome to the world of relativity, where there are better and worse, more effective and less effective, brighter and darker... you get the idea. Any combination can kill monsters and earn XP.

The attitude of "I can do whatever I want." does not apply in FF11.

Well, there are rules you must follow... that's true, but as long as you follow the rules you can do whatever you want. You tossed out quite a bit of loot to play this game, after all.

There are people behind those characters you will have to play with. Being self-centered will not work in a game based on communication and working together.

First off, I say again that it will work, though perhaps not as well. More importantly, I fail to see how one can seriously call someone "self-centered" (its not so much selfishness, as a thing called "free will") for choosing the combination they want, and not feel like a total hypocrite. From where I stand, it's very selfish to tell someone else what combination to use just because YOU want the best party there is. Sorry... it doesn't work like that. Just because you chose the most efficient job you possibly could doesn't mean that others are obligated to do the same. The world doesn't revolve around you ("you" the reader, not "you" the original author). I don't come to your job and complain about the way you do things. If I was your boss at work (or your PT leader) and I was unsatisfied with your performance, I'd fire you, and I wouldn't hire you in the first place if you didn't have good credentials (job/sub). That doesn't mean that I go around to aaaaall the people whom I fired or wouldn't hire and tell them to get their act together so that someday they can be effective employees for ME. It doesn't work like that in real life... it doesn't work like that in the game either (which is no coincidence... believe it or not, people don't like being told how to do things in real life OR online). If you're one of those 1337 efficiency whores, then you just need to remember one thing-- if I took the same attitude in real life as you took in game, the first thing I'd do is put away the keyboard, come to your house, and yank your lazy ass off of that computer and put you straight to work on something IMPORTANT... which this game is NOT. Freedom, baby... sweet freedom... you got it, and you're damn lucky for it too.

Now, I don't want to hear how "in game is different from real life" because I already know that, and the most important difference is that it's a GAME and it's meant to be FUN. I seriously doubt that anybody gets online because they don't have enough pressure in their life-- more likely they want to escape and have fun, am I right? So quit telling people what to do... bottom line. And on that note...

You have to do your best at your job's purpose if you really want to have fun."
Huge load of BS. Who is anybody to tell anyone else what they have to do to have fun? Not everyone is only happy when they win. I don't know how many people I've seen try to solo an IT just for fun, knowing they'd die. Not exactly efficient, ya know, but they had fun, all they way back to their Mog House.

Personally, I prefer to be effective, and in fact I consider myself to be the best at what I do. I do it because it's fun for ME, and I EXPECT other people to do what's fun for THEM-- not pick effective job combinations so that I'll have better chances at being in a good PT. As far as I'm concerned, they can do whatever they want. There are already plenty of people who want to be effective, and I'm sure they'll be happy to hear what's "the best" combination. Tell them when they ask. When they don't, don't volunteer your *opinion*. Stop griping at people who are FOLLOWING THE RULES. They have rights in this game, and personally, I consider it harrassment when you continually, well, harrass someone about their subjob. They have the right to be inefficient, but you don't have the right ot harrass them about it.

So the final, absolute, red curtain finale, bottom line is this:
There is nothing in this world that makes me angrier than people who refuse to take responsibility for their OWN happiness.

If you rely on other people to change their way of life, or even playstyle (when they're not directly hurting you, and following the rules, of course), just so YOU can be happy, that's a personal problem on your end. Suck it up, whussy.

[Ipwnzuall!!!111]

Congratulations if you have a high enough attention span to have reached the end of that post.

And I just want to reiterate, so as there's no confusion, that my comments were completely directed at people who think in such a way that there only certain subjobs which are acceptable, and flame those who are just trying to have some fun. I don't hold any malice towards the original author of the post (though I think that they are clearly delusional).

[neighbortaru]

you must be new here. the particular thread you are having an issue with has been "discussed" a couple of pages back.

as for the topic at hand, i pose for you a question: say you are trying to get the ninja job. you are trying to assemble a party of lvl 30's to fight the leeches (if you are not familiar with this quest, pls review in the ninja forums). you know this is a hard quest and that everyone needs to be giving 110%. you've assembled 5 members and are only missing the main healer. you do a search, and you see whm/blm and whm/war available. which one would you choose?

[kujo412]

i agree with um.. both of the posts.. but you didn't need to make the topic and say "STICKY THIS" blahblah..

the point the poster you were quoting was trying to make was that if you want to get parties, advance in the game, etc. you CANNOT have some goofy combo like.. thf/brd.. pld/anythingbutwar, they just don't work in party situations, and i for one, don't like having extra downtime and having a less effective party because somebody decides to pick a support job (YES! it IS Support Job, and not Subjob. Subjob was for people too lazy to type out support.) unsuitable to their main.

"so don't invite them"
well yeah, that's an option at lower levels, but when you hit about 55, it's either pick somebody up, or wait around 2 hours for another person your level to log on.. so it's kind of detrimental if you have to pick up somebody with a "gimp" support job.


I agree with your post in the fact that yes, there really aren't "rules" against any job/supportjob combo, and that people should have free will in what they choose. i like fiddling around with brd/sam for fun.. i only do that when soloing though, i don't expect groups with it, and when i want a party on bard i go switch to an "acceptable" support job (even though people probably would pick me up with sam subbed).


but yeah, both posts are right and wrong in certain aspects.. so.. yeah. .-.

this doesn't need to be stickied.

[Ipwnzuall!!!111]

neighbortaru--
Yeah, I'm new to this forum. And to answer your question... Is that even a question? Of course I would pick the WHM/BLM. I'm not in anyway suggesting that you treat all subjobs equally. If you don't want a gimp combo in your PT, don't invite them. At the same time, I'd never flame someone or treat them as inferior just because they're playing something they like. Plus, if the WHM/BLM sucks at their job, goes afk, or is just generally being a pain in the ass, I'd kick them and give the WHM/WAR a shot. Player over job. It's not about the person being optimal when trying to build a PT... it's about the person being the best one available.

kujo412
First off, I wasn't seriously suggesting that the Mods should make this a Sticky... I would actually prefer if they would un-Sticky the other post, but they can do as they please. In some way, I feel like I would be a hypocrite to tell them what to do, even though at the same time, the post kind of tells other people what to do.

Secondly, supposing it is a support job (it really doesn't matter because any subjob will still support the main job) a WHM/WAR is still better than a WHM. I don't know who you are to interpret the intent of the author, for one. Moreover, you seem to have a complete lack of perspective. There are two worlds in FFXI... the world of people who win to have fun, and the people who play to have fun. Believe it or not, there are enough gimps in FFXI to make their own parties, and still have fun. About the last thing they need is a player with the other attitude to tell them "they can't have fun because they're not good enough."

"well yeah, that's an option at lower levels, but when you hit about 55, it's either pick somebody up, or wait around 2 hours for another person your level to log on.. so it's kind of detrimental if you have to pick up somebody with a "gimp" support job."

Well, again... you show a lack perspective. Is the person contributing to the PT or not? If they are, don't complain. If they're not, kick them. Generally speaking, its not detrimental to have a player with a gimp sub because it's usually better than having no one at all. You're not complaining about them not contributing, you're complaining because they're not doing what makes you have the most fun (i.e. winning, elite style). If it was truly bad for the PT, you wouldn't invite them at all. If you can't get enough good players, you'll be better off soloing.

And many of the players that choose bad combos don't expect parties either. At best, they expect to party with other gimps. It really doesn't take much effort on your part to recognize a gimp sub, and to not invite them or not accept an invite from them, so all I'm saying is "leave them alone."

In the end, there really was nothing right about the post. It was for the most part falsified all the way through it, and there's no mistake about it.

[neighbortaru]

I would not flame a gimp character either, but there are those, however, who are a bit more "active"...

I do not share your views on gimp being better than none. They are detrimental to the party. If you read some of the reasoning why a lot of the people want to choose those combos, you will see (least i did) that they have no idea how their job works. If you have no idea how your job works you will be a liability to the rest of the PT.

For example, a WHM/WAR -- the typical white warrior mentality. If this is the only healer in the region, do you really want this guy in your party? Do you doubt for a second that this guy will get hate, get himself killed and get the rest of the party killed... Even if he's trying to be somewhat logical -- thinking it'll up his HP and make him survive more hits, he's sacrificing a bunch of MP in the process. With that extra MP, he coulda used it to heal the tank so he doesn't die and can keep on tanking.

[Ipwnzuall!!!111]

Neighbortaru- It's not so much a view of mine, but that sometimes it is a matter of fact. I'm not suggesting that I would invite a WHM/WAR to a PT, but lets face it-- if there are no good healers around, you either have to settle for a bad WHM or no PT at all. (In my case I just solo when I can't get a -good- PT.) Granted, a WHM/WAR would suck (relatively speaking), but if the player was actually 40+ or so I would be swayed to give them a shot (at earlier levels, very unlikely... there would almost have to be someone better). Now, if in fact they DO suck, I'll kick them or dissolve the PT... whatever. Generally speaking I make sure they know the role in the PT before we even get to kickin'. Not gaining XP is better than losing it from death. Still, if I think there's a chance that this WHM/WAR will net me more xp than I would gain solo, then I'm likely to take that chance. I'll consider the possibility that this person has no clue, but I'll also consider that they may just want to be the best WHM/WAR they can because they like the idea of it.

Again, believe it or not, there are good players out there who simply want to have fun playing a certain combo (few as they may be).

[Aetheran]

I've only seen these problems with subjobs in a few zones, namely Valkurm, Qufim, and the Elshimo regions. Most new players are unaware of how certain subjobs can help them do their job in the party better. As they gain levels, their method of sitting at a zone for party invites doesn't work anymore, and when the higher levels form their PTs in town, they're going to be wondering why their WHM/MNK isn't getting invited. Everytime I walked into Jeuno, there was the same DRG/WHM shouting
"LFG" on and on. They eventually changed their main job to a BRD. They'll eventually realize their mistakes..

Also, it's fine soloing some stuff at level 15 when you can't get a party.. but at level 60, most easy prey kick my ass ><;

[albert lee]

Again, believe it or not, there are good players out there who simply want to have fun playing a certain combo (few as they may be).

really? i haven't met a single one of them.

i.e. theres a rdm/drk in ragnarok. i avoid him.

sure things work in the early lvls of the game (i presume u just started playing) weird combinations work 1-30. once you get to higher lvls, you will seriously see the downfalls of the gimp combinations. check the other thread and you'll see why.

having a *unique (really dumb) sub is like running in a marathon with only one leg.

[neighbortaru]

Originally posted by Ipwnzuall!!!111
Not gaining XP is better than losing it from death. Still, if I think there's a chance that this WHM/WAR will net me more xp than I would gain solo, then I'm likely to take that chance.

That's exactly it. I've had too many bad experiences to comfortabley take the chance.

There a probably more than a few people who are on the same boat. Nothing is more frustrating than being in a PT with ppl who don't know what they are doing and get everyone killed. You gain xp, you loose it. You gain xp again, you loose it. A week has passed and you are still at the same lvl. I think a lot of the flaming comes from this frustration.

All this information is out there on how to be the best at your job and how to contribute to the PT, but ppl will still not use it. They'll choose some combo that they think'll be "fun" and badass, but end up hurting the PT more often than not.

Yes, i believe there are ppl who are good even with an awkward combo, but, as you've said, they are far and few in between. In a haystack, how do you find the needle?

I have nothing against ppl having fun with the jobs. I just wish they would be more aware of their weaknesses. If, out of desperation, I chose the WHM/WAR and he said to me "Hey you sure? I'm kinda gimped but if you need me badly, I'll try to compensate with juice and gear." I would have nothing but respect for this guy. He knows his weaknesses, knows how to compensate for them and knows enough to acknowledge that he might be a liability to the party.

[Vivid]

The person who made the aforementioned post about job combinations, Sheila, is a mod.

[supertle]

this is the most self-centered post i have read for a while, and you're arguing about people being self-centered,

this post should be in the trash, not a sticky, it's your opinion and solely your opinion, alot of your points are selfish,

you go have all the fun you want, but don't impose on MY FUN either,

btw

YOU > any job/sub combo u can ever come up with

too much focus on job/sub combo and not enough on actually learning how to play the game is more of a problem i see, i guess ppl must be having fun wearing armors that are 10-15 levels below them in party doing what they want, strong topic title with little relevance in contents, why don't you level up to 30 first with a job and then see if your opinion changes, then levl up your next job to 40, and see how it has even changed more, and then lvl to 50, experienced players posting on here about good job combo isn't putting ppl down or taking their fun, they're giving you good advice, play the game first long enough before you should start posting such strong opinions

lets keep this arguement even simpler, yea granted you can do ANYTHING you want into this game as like in ANY GAMES, but like every game you'll eventually wanna win and go kill the big bad boss at the end, you won't do that by screwing around and having fun, so when you're ready to play and stop screwing around, play a good job combo, wear good equip, eat food, do renkei/mb, fight in proper party formations, nobody is being elite by telling you if your combo sucks or not,

here's another analogy,
counterstrike a team based game, if u ever play that u'll know what i'm talking about, in serious clan vs clan match, u mess around and have fun like saying using your knife instead of gun, your clan will lose or someone will have to overcompensate a ton for you, you're having fun but u just made someone else work twice as hard to compensate for you, fair eh? you can buy a gun in counterstrike and use it differently then intended to have fun like trying to snipe with a handgun, yeah you'll have plenty of fun, but you're no benefit to your team in clan matches or just regular game play. How about this, remember the 3-4 clowns that decides to goto their spawn area and build a toten pole out of themselves while the rest of the team is charging to attempt victory, they're close to it but lose every time b/c of the shortage of manpower, yeah it's funny as heck at first watching these clowns screwing around in the spawn area tossing grenades at themselves, then after 2-3 rounds, they're complete jackass and are usually kicked out of the server if a mod is there, yeah their fun just imposed on other people's fun that wants to win, ppl wants to win too in ffxi, if you suck or your job combo suck, yeah you're a problem unless you can compensate

don't wanna argue with any of your original points directly b/c they're not worth arguing as i already wasted too much keystrokes replying as it is, and please, don't take my sentences and quote them out of context, quote me on my whole post if u wanna reply

[Anya]

I read the first few bits of the main post, then ignored the rest. Much as I'll ignore any 'fun' job combos when I'm building an xp PT.

You may not like Shelia's post, but you have to respect the reason for it. That reason being she doesn't want to listen to these people with 'fun' job combos whining in jeuno that no one will invite them to an xp pt.

My blist is getting really long these days. Shelia's may be full.

[Weezingpipes]

This is the stupidest post to date, and I've seen stupid threads/posts. While I think the mods post is sort of common sense, it does speak the truth.

Posts like these just prove even anti social children who don't have any concept of working with other people co-operatively or playing in a team setting can still play the game, much to my dismay. Why can't people like that stick to playing on battlenet, clearly anything else is entirely too complicated. Seriously, there must be someone who is in dire need to being 0wn3d or called a fag there. Get on it Ipwnzuall!!!111.

[hageshiku]

this thread makes a lot more sense to me than the stickied one. although both are silly.