End game TP burns and ninja subs.

[Raydeus]

Re: End game TP burns and ninja subs.

I couldn't agree more. A group of DDs should not be able to take down a mob that gives a significant ammount of exp without taking lots of damage themselves. Currently, anyone who doesn't sub NIN and thus gets hit at all is only slowing down the party. It's silly that 6 shadows are enough to juggle the mob around between DDs so that nobody takes damage.



So other people can exp with pugs while paladins have to beg for exp from their LS? Merit parties aren't quite relevant for me, being only L69 and all, however, my social LS rarely has enough 75s online in EU time to build any kind of party, let alone a TP burn.

That doesn't mean TP burns should be nerfed, all it means is regular parties should get a boost so they can be as efficient XP-wise as burn parties.

It's not that regular parties should be better or that burn should be better, it's more about any kind of party being equal since setups change a lot acording to the people looking for a party at the moment you are building the party.

You might build a burn party one day and then a regular party the next day, the important thing is having options so you can work with whatever jobs are looking at the time.

[Maju]

Re: End game TP burns and ninja subs.

Fact is, there shouldn't be a position where DD can unload enough damage into an exp mob to kill it before the mob can have a chance to kill them. Same way a party of tanks shouldn't be able to take down a mob that has a bucketload of hit points because they lack the DD capacity. Utsusemi: Ni gives this ability to people that shouldn't have it and allows them to perform actions they shouldn't be able to perform. Without Ni then the DD's would take noticeable damage and the downtime from healing would break up these insane chains. When exp parties are reduced down to a handful of classes for optimal performance it screams something is wrong with game and class balance.

I couldn't agree more. A group of DDs should not be able to take down a mob that gives a significant ammount of exp without taking lots of damage themselves. Currently, anyone who doesn't sub NIN and thus gets hit at all is only slowing down the party. It's silly that 6 shadows are enough to juggle the mob around between DDs so that nobody takes damage.

While there is truth to this line, people, not even some PLDs, realize the potential, however I would like to bring up another point. You should change your wording to "the fact remains someone who relies on PUGs is going to be in line a party". If you are 75, you should have an end-game LS or a high level social and you should let it be your source of exp. Making a party with 6, or starting a party with a RDM WAR and PLD(aimed to DD) is a lot better than seeking for a party as a PLD.

So other people can exp with pugs while paladins have to beg for exp from their LS? Merit parties aren't quite relevant for me, being only L69 and all, however, my social LS rarely has enough 75s online in EU time to build any kind of party, let alone a TP burn.

[Raydeus]

Re: End game TP burns and ninja subs.

Just one little thing about "PLD can be a DD too" argument, I play PLD because I like tanking, if I wanted to be a DD I'd have leveled WAR instead.

(So yep, I stay clear from most TP burns when I play PLD)

[Legal Fish]

Re: End game TP burns and ninja subs.

I think Maju understands the point you're trying to get across but the fact remains a Paladin DD is always going to be last in line in PUGs.

While there is truth to this line, people, not even some PLDs, realize the potential, however I would like to bring up another point. You should change your wording to "the fact remains someone who relies on PUGs is going to be in line a party". If you are 75, you should have an end-game LS or a high level social and you should let it be your source of exp. Making a party with 6, or starting a party with a RDM WAR and PLD(aimed to DD) is a lot better than seeking for a party as a PLD.

And another thing, don't feed me the whole "I'm a higher level than you, therefore I know more." bull. I won't eat it.

I don't need to feed you anything, your words alone show the distance from reality and your belief of reality. You seem to think that you are exping ITs or HNMs or something. Let me explain a 'melee burn'. You want the monster to die fast, you don't want to waste a slot on someone trying to hold the monster because he can't, you want someone who can deal more damage so it will go down faster. You want this (VT) monster to be dead in 30 seconds. You can try to role-play all you want. PLD trying to tank at 75 (in a melee burn) has about as much chance a NIN/THF trying to DD at level 40. PLDs are the best tank overall for HNMs, but there is no such thing as a 'tank' in melee burns. If you refuse to play with variety expect to be a failure as a PLD in HNM, merit party, and solo play.

[Feba]

Re: End game TP burns and ninja subs.

A great PLD could outdamage a decent WAR.


A great PLD and a good WAR would be close.


A great PLD and a great WAR, PLD doesn't stand a chance. PLD isn't made to DD. Best thing to do, in my opinion, would be to make mobs which deal extremely fast damage, which depends highly on DEF. Like, a BRD's DEF would take heavy amounts of damage per hit, and with the high speed, would die quickly. To a PLD, it would be like a DC mob.

Basically, modified chigoe, and in higher amounts. Maybe make them like chigoes, but lv78, have their name on constantly, higher HP, etc, sorta like a Phantom Chigoe, but with a nice hefty EXP bonus (like, auto-empress level)

Just stick them near Dvucca or something, and traditional PTs might be able to function.

[sevenpointflaw]

Re: End game TP burns and ninja subs.

I always thought, make Blink static (garunteed shadow absorbtion) and make Utsuemi random when subbed (but garunteed when main). Then you have PLD who have a reason to at least -try- other subs (/whm for blink), and while /nin is gimped a little, it isn't -totally- gone

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: End game TP burns and ninja subs.

I'd LOVE to see what would happen if SE did that. So many things would be thrown out of whack, but I think they know we depend on it too much for them to change it.

Fact is, there shouldn't be a position where DD can unload enough damage into an exp mob to kill it before the mob can have a chance to kill them. Same way a party of tanks shouldn't be able to take down a mob that has a bucketload of hit points because they lack the DD capacity. Utsusemi: Ni gives this ability to people that shouldn't have it and allows them to perform actions they shouldn't be able to perform. Without Ni then the DD's would take noticeable damage and the downtime from healing would break up these insane chains. When exp parties are reduced down to a handful of classes for optimal performance it screams something is wrong with game and class balance.

[Liquidedust]

Re: End game TP burns and ninja subs.

As far as I know, raw stats have nothing to do with skill. What PLD has is A+ in swords and that's it. Inferior STR to at least WAR and probably MNK. No traits that help in damage dealing. No JAs that help in damage dealing. No spells that help in damage dealing. As far I can see, a PLD would have to be better equipped than another melee to beat them in damage output.

WAR is so good because it can keep the awesome WAR abilities and traits while subbing NIN. All other melees who are also required to sub NIN (PLD included) suffer a damage loss because they can't sub WAR.

WAR, DRK and PLD all have the same STR base stats A-rated for all of them (a PLD/WAR even has higher STR then a WAR/NIN at the same level without merits).

And a PLD does have a higher STR then MNK, most gear used by WAR in TP-Burn (with the exception of Ridill, Earthen Abjuration and Hauberk + Thick) are also available to PLD so gear is not really an issue either.

Though PLD will be weaker then for example a WAR of course, but that is due to a WARs inheret abilities to DD no matter what he/she subs.

[ImpactionActionHero]

Re: End game TP burns and ninja subs.

I think Maju understands the point you're trying to get across but the fact remains a Paladin DD is always going to be last in line in PUGs. And, why should they be forced to DD when their raison d'etre is tanking? I can understand the whole burn culture but I view it as a weakness in the system that needs fixing and making Utsusemi: Ni level 38 or above is the quickest and simplest way to do it currently.

I'd LOVE to see what would happen if SE did that. So many things would be thrown out of whack, but I think they know we depend on it too much for them to change it.

[Vair]

Re: End game TP burns and ninja subs.

As a level 56, why are you even commenting on PLD DD in Merit Burn parties? or Merit Burn parties? or Merit parties?

Yes, actually. I've done my research. Before I even chose the Paladin job I did as much reading as I could. I know pretty much everything about PLD at all levels. Even those beyond my own.

I know how my job works, I know whats to come, I know what I want.

Yes, if you're implying that experiance is greater than study then I would have to agree. But guess what? I don't want to have to switch to ninja sub. I'm here to tank, not be a DD. I'll pry have to do it, agreed, but I will bitch about it the entire time. Wanna know why? I've said it before. I'm a tank, not a DD.

And another thing, don't feed me the whole "I'm a higher level than you, therefore I know more." bull. I won't eat it.

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: End game TP burns and ninja subs.

You don't seem to be listening.

Just fine doesn't cut it in a world where people want the best they can find. Why take someone who can do it "just fine" when you can take WAR/NIN (or almost any other melee) and get more exp?

I think Maju understands the point you're trying to get across but the fact remains a Paladin DD is always going to be last in line in PUGs. And, why should they be forced to DD when their raison d'etre is tanking? I can understand the whole burn culture but I view it as a weakness in the system that needs fixing and making Utsusemi: Ni level 38 or above is the quickest and simplest way to do it currently.

[Legal Fish]

Re: End game TP burns and ninja subs.

As a level 56, why are you even commenting on PLD DD in Merit Burn parties? or Merit Burn parties? or Merit parties?

[Treth]

Re: End game TP burns and ninja subs.

if a pld wants to spend $$$$$$$$$ to get the best gear to DD, im sure pld/nin in tp burn pts would b just fine. but it would b a bit trickier to get pts imo

[Vair]

Re: End game TP burns and ninja subs.

You don't seem to be listening.

While a very good or good equiped WAR and good equiped MNK will not usually be out damaged by a PLD/NIN, it is possible for them to be DD, it has been doned, it is used a lot, and this is not a debate. PLD/NIN can handle its own with a smart player behind the character. Look on end-game blogs to see parses and such information if you need some help getting started on being a PLD DD.

Do you know much that would cost a PLD? Not all of us are rich. First off there are two sets of armor you would have to buy. One for Melee and one for tanking. I'm talking evry single piece of gear you have has to be different. Why should we have to spend extra to satisfy everyone elses comfy TP burn parties?

PLD = Tank
PLD =/= DD

[Legal Fish]

Re: End game TP burns and ninja subs.

You don't seem to be listening.

While a very good or good equiped WAR and good equiped MNK will not usually be out damaged by a PLD/NIN, it is possible for them to be DD, it has been doned, it is used a lot, and this is not a debate. PLD/NIN can handle its own with a smart player behind the character. Look on end-game blogs to see parses and such information if you need some help getting started on being a PLD DD.