Do we really need to buy a security token?

[Ziero]

Re: Do we really need to buy a security token?

Because, if they supposedly care about improving account security, they would realize that an SMS system would attract many people, of not more people than the token system.

And there is a distinct difference between "able to afford" and "wants to buy".

And they realized an SMS system would turn off more people then having a far superior Security Token because not everyone who plays this even has the option of getting a cell phone while the vast majority can spare 10 extra bucks to secure their account.

Your second sentence proves that it is RMT if it is true-- if people are 'tricked' into paying the ten dollars for the 'free bonus', then they are paying for the satchel, not the token, regardless of what may show up on the invoice.

No, it's bribing people who were on the fence to do something that would ultimately benefit them in the long run. It's like a mother not letting her kid eat dessert until they finished dinner, they had something that was good for us but many would pass on so they added something we want with the something that is good for us. Because, and I don't know if you noticed this, but the vast majority of players can be pretty dim and that lead to a lot of them getting hacked by some of the oldest tricks in the book.

This is absolutely not what I was suggesting. I was saying the services, assuming there is not some serious practical security flaw with using cell phones, should be provided in parallel. The token for those that cannot or do not wish to opt for a cell phone, which would be cheaper than buying a phone and a data plan. And SMS for those that have a cell phone and an existing data plan for whom it would be very cheap or free. Going with one system over another seems like nothing but a bad idea.

And in the end doing both would be more money and effort on SE's part to service a barely there, small percentage of the population who would want the SMS service over the token. And on top of that, the SMS system would still be an inferior option to the Security Token so it is just not worth it.

No, it's quite a bit difference. FFXI is a game where people have constantly been fighting for more inventory space. The mog satchel doubles your inventory. The Harpsichord is a nice decoration for your home. Big difference. Like the difference between charging people to change their character's appearance (although that's totally unnecessary) and charging them to level up their characters.

The inventory space is nice, but people have gotten along for years without it. It's not needed, it's wanted.

And it's not a single event, it's teleporting clothing for buying an item that has nothing to do with where Vana'diel was previously, or an expansion that most people despise that offers a nice piece of armor at the end. These are signs that SE is testing the waters of selling in game items for money, or at least seeing how barefaced they can be about it without people like BBQ (who hate games that survive by selling armor and the like) leaving. There's nothing wrong with offering toys with fun in game copies, or events with in game souvenirs, it's when those things begin to justify the cost of buying the real world item that there's a problem.

The "teleporting clothing" was a test, it was SE seeing if people would be interested in FFXI merchandise, just like the Shadowlord, business card cases, cell phone danglies and all other stuff they started selling. Do you really think SE thought they could sell an ugly body armor that teleports you once a week for 40 bucks? And most people, myself included, bought the mini-expansion because we thought the story would be worth it. That crappy body armor at the end isn't worth 10 bucks on it's own and no one knew just how bad ACP would be beforehand, especially seeing the epicness of WotG and ToAU missions. In fact many people are going to wait for reviews on the next two add-ons before buying them, and I can assure you if they suck as bad as ACP did they won't be bought.

I mean, do we really want SE to turn into eBay RMTers? "Oh, I'm not selling you the account, I'm selling you a PIECE OF PAPER that just happens to have my login details on it." isn't that far off from "Oh, I'm not selling you the Ridill +1, I'm selling you a TOY SWORD that just happens to come with a code that allows you to redeem a Ridill +1".

I would totally buy a replica Ridill whether or not it came with an in-game code for one, that would be awesome. Hell, there's someone on BG who's making and selling home made replica Kraken Clubs and people are eating them up. But at this point in time, we are far, far, far from SE selling in-game items for cash directly. Of your only examples, one is a custom made piece of jewelery that comes with a worthless-but-unique in-game item. A failed mini-expansion that SE thought was worth it with a mediocre body piece. And a one time purchase of an item to that helps everyone who plays FFXI or any future SE online game that comes with a one of a kind bonus that's incredibly useful.

Even though the Token alone *IS* worth 10 bucks, people would have willingly risked not bothering with it. And while some people may have spent 10 bucks just for extra inventory, it wouldn't have nearly been as many people who bought the Token+Satchel combo. Without the satchel, not as many people would have got the token, and without the token not as many people would have got the satchel. Alone they were nothing, together they are everything. So all your doom crying and nay saying about how SE is gonna turn RMT on everyone is just baseless panic because you think an inferior option would have been better for everyone.

[Feba]

Re: Do we really need to buy a security token?

Why should SE have to pay for two different systems doing the same thing when one is just more efficient in every possible way?

Because, if they supposedly care about improving account security, they would realize that an SMS system would attract many people, of not more people than the token system.

And there is a distinct difference between "able to afford" and "wants to buy".

No it does not reek of RMT, it's an incentive to those who were on the fence about the dangle. A free bonus to trick people into paying the 10 bucks for a more secure account.

Your second sentence proves that it is RMT if it is true-- if people are 'tricked' into paying the ten dollars for the 'free bonus', then they are paying for the satchel, not the token, regardless of what may show up on the invoice.

So lets say you just got rid of the dongle and made it so you can only get text messages with the password.

This is absolutely not what I was suggesting. I was saying the services, assuming there is not some serious practical security flaw with using cell phones, should be provided in parallel. The token for those that cannot or do not wish to opt for a cell phone, which would be cheaper than buying a phone and a data plan. And SMS for those that have a cell phone and an existing data plan for whom it would be very cheap or free. Going with one system over another seems like nothing but a bad idea.

This is no more RMT then selling the Piano collection and having the Harpsichord included with it.

No, it's quite a bit difference. FFXI is a game where people have constantly been fighting for more inventory space. The mog satchel doubles your inventory. The Harpsichord is a nice decoration for your home. Big difference. Like the difference between charging people to change their character's appearance (although that's totally unnecessary) and charging them to level up their characters.

The satchel and harpsichord are also wildly different in theme. For the harpsichord, you preordered a musical album, and got a nice piece of musical furniture. It provides you no real benefits. If you weren't interested in the music, chances are you would never be interested in it for the in game item. For the satchel, if you pay SE $10 at ANY point, they will send you a security token (again, not a bad thing), and your in game benefit is a doubling of inventory. They have no link to each other, and lots of people will pay the $10 solely for the inventory space, which yes, reeks of RMT. And it's not a single event, it's teleporting clothing for buying an item that has nothing to do with where Vana'diel was previously, or an expansion that most people despise that offers a nice piece of armor at the end. These are signs that SE is testing the waters of selling in game items for money, or at least seeing how barefaced they can be about it without people like BBQ (who hate games that survive by selling armor and the like) leaving. There's nothing wrong with offering toys with fun in game copies, or events with in game souvenirs, it's when those things begin to justify the cost of buying the real world item that there's a problem.

I mean, do we really want SE to turn into eBay RMTers? "Oh, I'm not selling you the account, I'm selling you a PIECE OF PAPER that just happens to have my login details on it." isn't that far off from "Oh, I'm not selling you the Ridill +1, I'm selling you a TOY SWORD that just happens to come with a code that allows you to redeem a Ridill +1".

[Firewind]

Re: Do we really need to buy a security token?

3) Not everyone gets cellphone service everywhere, which will make it impossible to log on in certain areas.

This. I live at the bottom of a valley so my cell signal is poor to say the least.

[Mog]

Re: Do we really need to buy a security token?

So lets say you just got rid of the dongle and made it so you can only get text messages with the password.

I can guarantee there will be so many pissed off people. You know why?

1) Not everyone has a cellphone.
2) Not everyone has a text message plan (like me) I don't particularly like being charged money for texting. Sorry.
3) Not everyone gets cellphone service everywhere, which will make it impossible to log on in certain areas.

I'd rather pay 10 bucks and make it available for everyone than making it available on cellphones, which is ridiculous. If you're having a hard time making 10 dollars, you shouldn't be playing this game in the first place.

As far as RMT goes, LOL. The satchel is an added bonus to buying the token, not their main intention. And like someone else said, I guess this would make the harpsicord RMT too by your logic.

[Ziero]

Re: Do we really need to buy a security token?

I don't know much about how the Sims works so I guess the original post went over my head. =X

Ziero you're wasting your time trying to enter into a discussion with Feba. He hasn't played the game in years and all he does know about it he's read on forums. You should know by now he just enjoys starting posts off like this to complain and get into arguments with folks. It's like the complaint he had last week with FFXIV not allowing him to transfer a character from FFXI over he hasn't played longer than he actually did play.

But I'm boooooored :(

[Durahansolo]

Re: Do we really need to buy a security token?

So because people can pirate the game and it's DLC you shouldn't have to pay for the game or it's DLC?

What does that even have to do with the SE Security token and Mog Satchel?

I said this has nothing to do with what we are talking about but it reminds me of the debate that is going on @ gamefaqs since it is virtual goods for money. I'm not promoting piracy of the game and I understand why EA decided to add in the extra city to save face, but not why they decided to add other random DLC as a buy that should've been in the game to begin with. It isn't like this stuff came out a month after the game was released, it came out the same day so basically they planned to not add the stuff in as a money hook.

So why would I pay to download $100+ of random EA DLC, when I can instead get a subscription to thesimsresource and download all the user created stuff that I want for 12 months for about half that price and also have access to over 1 million different downloads of Sims 2 content as well.

This was my real point of what I was talking about^^. Why should we pay for EA's extra DLC content when it would be cheaper to get a subscription to thesimsresource or some other user website that makes custom content that will be 10x better at the least than what EA made and is charging a arm and a leg for. In that same breath we'll still have access to stuff from Sims 1 and 2 if anybody still plays those and I'd highly recommend sticking with Sims 2 until the first expansion or two are released for sims 3.

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: Do we really need to buy a security token?

Ziero you're wasting your time trying to enter into a discussion with Feba. He hasn't played the game in years and all he does know about it he's read on forums. You should know by now he just enjoys starting posts off like this to complain and get into arguments with folks. It's like the complaint he had last week with FFXIV not allowing him to transfer a character from FFXI over he hasn't played longer than he actually did play.

[Ziero]

Re: Do we really need to buy a security token?

So because people can pirate the game and it's DLC you shouldn't have to pay for the game or it's DLC?

What does that even have to do with the SE Security token and Mog Satchel?

[Durahansolo]

Re: Do we really need to buy a security token?

Totally off topic, but this topic is reminding me of how the Sims 3 gamefaqs boards are looking right now.

Sims 3 was bootlegged about 2-3 weeks before the retail version came out. EA got wind of it and said that the final retail version would be different from the leaked version since it would have a extra city and access to "The Exchange" and DLC. When the retail version of the game came out EA created the new city patch as DLC to be installed into the game and they made a bunch of furniture/haircuts/cars etc., (Uploaded people and houses are free though) that should've been included in the game, as pay DLC instead of free. So basically you now have to register a credit card or buy sim point cards to buy those things. About 1-2 days after the release, the whole Sims 3 Exchange Pay DLC was uploaded to a torrent with the extra city content as well.

So why would I pay to download $100+ of random EA DLC, when I can instead get a subscription to thesimsresource and download all the user created stuff that I want for 12 months for about half that price and also have access to over 1 million different downloads of Sims 2 content as well.

[Ziero]

Re: Do we really need to buy a security token?

1: Problem: SE's Security Token requires money, thus discouraging people from using it.
Potential solution: Cell phone SMS are free for those with unlimited texting plans, and vary in cost for others, and use hardware people already have to provide more people with a secure service.

Why should SE have to pay for two different systems doing the same thing when one is just more efficient in every possible way? If there are people playing this game who can't afford a one time only $10 purchase of a security based item, how in the hell are they actually playing this game? Even a 13 year old on mommy's credit card can scrounge up 10 bucks easy enough. The cost of the token is not an issue, so that removes the only real advantage of having the SMS system set up.

2: Problem: The Mog Satchel is ONLY available to people with a Security Token. This reeks of RMT at best.
Potential solution: Using an SMS system (again, as an ALTERNATIVE to the token, not a substitute) would allow people to get practically the same security benefit at no cost, and thus disprove the notion that the Mog Satchel is PAID for with cash, instead of a BENEFIT to using enhanced security.

No it does not reek of RMT, it's an incentive to those who were on the fence about the dangle. A free bonus to trick people into paying the 10 bucks for a more secure account. And if any other online SE game has a free incentive that can be accessed by having the Security Token, then that just means that 10 bucks I spent just got a little bit better. This is no more RMT then selling the Piano collection and having the Harpsichord included with it.

[Firewind]

Re: Do we really need to buy a security token?

You do realise that in order to use a "stolen" Security Tag you also need to know someone's SE Member password right? Whenever you log in with a Security Tag you need to input your SE Member password which cannot be saved to perfom an auto login and cannot be changed via POL by mean friends or family members and the password that is on the tag.

Really unless Mr Burglar who happens to know that the tag sitting on my computer desk is for a video game where me might make a few hundred dollars by selling my account to the Russians finds out my password all stealing the tag will do is make me unable to access my mog satchel until a replacement token arrives by mail. That and I get to laugh at Mr Burglar for not trying to steal my PS3, 360, Laptop, the PC itself, the TV or my guitar which granted only has two working pickups but would probably fetch more than the account itself anyway.

[Feba]

Re: Do we really need to buy a security token?

So you really think that someone would steal the token and that would be on their "hit list" when they broke in?

Most burglars? Certainly not. However, if it was someone with knowledge of RMT, and knowledge of a person's character, it's definitely not hard to imagine. Especially if you can make it look like the token was simply misplaced, and not stolen.

Now, I don't think the chances of someone targeting your token are very high. But it has to be at least as high as your chance of having your SMSs sniffed and converted in real time. All a token theft takes is a deceitful 'friend' or family member, or even just some random person in your house.

The main point about the 3rd party (aka cell phone) is that you are having secure info traveling over something that is not under SE's wing. They can not tell you that it is secure b/c it leaves SE's hands when it is sent.

Oh please. That's like saying that the security token isn't secure because SE isn't god, and doesn't have an omnipotent control of physical reality. It's still really, really damn good, either way. If someone has the ability to A- Gain your password, B- Intercept your SMS messages, and C- Act on that information within a time frame of a minute (or two, or more), then they would definitely have the ability to simply hijack your account as it is.

And it's not really a matter of opinion. It's a matter of "Is there some serious problem with this method" (So far, the answers have been overwhelmingly "no"-- it's got its upsides and downsides, but the only real security issues are ones that aren't a real world concern for anyone who isn't employed by the government), and "if not, doesn't SE's refusal to implement this system point towards the Mog Satchel being purely RMT?".

[Caspian]

Re: Do we really need to buy a security token?

I agree, the odds of a random person breaking into you house and stealing your token is rare. But its probably not any more unlikely than a person with all the equipment necessary to intercept cell phone calls and SMS messages finding a code being sent to you and knowing what the hell to do with it w/in the next 60 seconds.

[Durahansolo]

Re: Do we really need to buy a security token?

I dunno about that. If you know someone plays a game, and you have their password (or they automatically enter it), breaking in and stealing a small plastic item that could be worth hundreds or thousands is a pretty sweet effort:reward ratio. The "best" case scenario in this case would be someone who has their password automatic on their laptop, and keeps it right next to the security token. Go in, go to the laptop, grab it and the token, get out. That could easily be upwards of a thousand dollars, depending on the value of the account/items/hardware. Sounds silly, but then pretty much everything related to RMT does.

Dammit so now the RMT are going to break into my house!? Well they won't be getting this laptop or my character either! *Throws the laptop on the floor and beats it with a baseball bat* NOW THE RMT WILL NEVER GET IT! *Laughs fiendishly*...Wait a minute how am I supposed to play the game now?



Anyways, I thought amberly was talking about some random person breaking into the house like for example my drug using next door neighbor who has a bunch of unsavory folks next door all the time. They'd be more interested in the laptop, the xbox, the playstation, my monitor, and probably my desktop (If they can lift the thing) than they would the security token that is laying right next to it. If the RMT start robbing houses then we seriously have a problem.

[Amberly]

Re: Do we really need to buy a security token?

So you really think that someone would steal the token and that would be on their "hit list" when they broke in? Well then that might be the reason we are not seeing eye to eye then.

The main point about the 3rd party (aka cell phone) is that you are having secure info traveling over something that is not under SE's wing. They can not tell you that it is secure b/c it leaves SE's hands when it is sent. So basicly defeats the purpose of a password.

To safe us both hassle and just repeating the same thing over and over, I say we just agree on having different matters of opinion.