Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

[Vyuru]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Btw, I did a party against Eruca once with a smn/rdm as our only dispeller. She got resisted 5-10% of the time with half skill. Yeah, it's that good. I've often thought whm/rdm 64+ would be a very good idea. But around the time I thought about pressing the concept, everyone stopped inviting WHMs... :(

Really? I'm curious as to how this works now because like I said, I have never seen a dispel resisted except on summons.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

I always put {main} {heal!} {no thanks} in my search comment.
By asking for me to party with that there, they acknowledge what I'm not there for.

(You shouldn't use â—€mainâ–¶; it's an equipment slot, and doesn't have the meaning of "primary" in Japanese.)

The party should make it clear they want you to go against your inclination before inviting you. If they did not, then, you are free to leave once you find out.

* * *

I don't like to be replacement; I say so in my search comment. If asked by people out in the field, I usually ask if I'm a replacement for someone, then politely decline if that's the intention.

However, I don't go around and insult other RDMs who would take replacement slots for putting the wrong expectations out there that parties should replace people with no limitations--or worse, ask me to do that.

* * *

Well lucky you, your server must be filled with more mages than where I'm at.

I've once blindly stumbled into a 5+1 party in the Mire (as RDM73?), and the party came close to wiping too many times. (It's insane to pull a fly with only RDM/WHM for healer, much less when he's at less than 1/3 MP.)

After that, when an NA leader sends an invite, I always ask "Am I'm the only mage?". If the party isn't full already, that'd be a hint to the leader that I'm not comfortable being the only mage. If it is full and I'm the only mage, then I double check to make sure I have RR items and an extra Hi-Ether for emergency--or I just decline the invitation.

Not sure why, but the vast majority of the time I've asked, the answer had been "Nope. We have a ____ ."

[Lmnop]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

(There's an obvious third interest of "how can I get xp faster?" but I don't think I need to address that here.)

I think you may be downplaying the role of this 3rd interest quite a bit. I know you were trying to work with as few variables as possible, but it truly is the case that my friend (who's the best BLU I've ever met) will bring his Bard to a party that already has a bard in it because he feels 2x bards is better than brd+blu.

There are people unwilling to let a THF into a melee burn party because they cannot trust their exp/hour.

People don't 2 merits in an hour. Anything less, and they should've been spending this time crafting instead.

Btw, I did a party against Eruca once with a smn/rdm as our only dispeller. She got resisted 5-10% of the time with half skill. Yeah, it's that good. I've often thought whm/rdm 64+ would be a very good idea. But around the time I thought about pressing the concept, everyone stopped inviting WHMs... :(

[Vyuru]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

The fact that you solo tanked Raptors on a War with no PT deaths and positive EXP gain is something to be proud of, and despite complaints about desiring another class to fill the role, the PT should have at least made not of your ability to do the job right.

I solo tanked Raptors as drg/war with no party deaths besides when the ninja tried to tank :P

Frankly I still haven't figured out how that worked >.>

The "versatility" you're demanding that BLM embrace is the "versatility" to fall into the same ghetto as SMN -- being invited for their subjob, at the expense of what the job they actually chose to play can do.

Statements like this bug me a little (no offense, what you say is very true, but still....)

I expect people to play their best for exp and to do what is needed for the exp parties. If the Blm is needed in more of a healing role then yes, I think that they should step up to the plate.

To be brutally honest, I tend to think that most Blm should go blm/rdm once they can gain Dispel from /rdm. I have seen perhaps only a handfull of blm use their /whm spells from lvls 60-71, and that's a long, long time exping. Quite frankly the best blm I have partied with lately have used Stun almost as much as they nuked to handle the fire crawlers in particular, that was freaking awesome and those blm undoubtedly saved the life of our tanks many times because of that. Dispel, as far as I have been able to tell, cannot be resisted on exp style mobs. I can dispel T mobs as drg/rdm, I can dispel Imps in the Mire as a lvl 43 rdm, the only time I have ever seen dispel resisted was by summons who are immune to all magic except their own element. Now with that assumption, yes I do think that /rdm is the best option for blm later on because I view blm as taking on more of a support/modest DD, especially in ToAU camps, and in any camp vs T- low VT mobs. Most of the parties I make are Drg/sam, Thf, drk/sam or sam, pld or nin, and whm and smn. Many of my parties have alot of MB potential because I still build them around what jobs I skillchain well with, so frankly I have no problem if the blm just Magic Bursts off the SC because we have so many of them.

I realise that this is only how I build parties, other people like other things, but I expect blm to do what is best for the party, and in such a party I do NOT think that chainspell nuking is the best thing for the party. Which, is why most of the time I invite a summoner besides just liking the class. Summoners offer the perfect balance between backup healing, support, and DDing, and it's fun in addition to being a treat to watch them go all out like they were meant to.

Regardless of anything, I expect party members to use their job AND their subjob to their fullest potential, if you aren't you may as well have never unlocked the subjob quest, and I consider you to be about as gimped as if you had no subjob.

Now would I go and build a party specifically around a blm main healer? No. But I have no problem asking a blm to mainly stick to MBing, the occasional nuke/dispel depending on sub, and the occasional backup healing.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

. . .

Red Mages could perform many roles, including main heal. When you can do multiple things, you always end up doing what's needed most, most often.

Blue mages knew from the get-go. If they start doing "support-y" things, it's all they'll do.

And there's my anecdotal view of the world.

Dude, anecdotal or not, you are SO sig'd! Quoted for SO much truth!

[Lunaryn]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

For some reason this argument is starting to remind me of the issues I've had with people who couldn't understand me refusing to party with a PL...

There are two conflicting interests being expressed here. One is the powerful short-term interest in making the opportunity you have work. Another is the more abstract long-term interest in discouraging the predominance of short-term solutions that narrow a particular job's role and may leave a player unprepared to do anything else. (There's an obvious third interest of "how can I get xp faster?" but I don't think I need to address that here.)

When a BLM/WHM needs to take on a support role to cope with emergencies or the inability of a party to find a rep, in say 1 out of 10 parties, that teaches them about being versatile in their job/subjob to cope with a situation that needs it. If they're being asked to main heal in 9 out of 10 parties because people do not recognize or value their ability to do anything else, that's a very different situation which is likely going to give them a very skewed perception of their own capabilities. Given that the only real argument against powerleveling parties at any level it's viable is that it interferes with that party's member's ability to learn their jobs, is it so surprising that there would be similar resistance when party after party only wants a job for one role, particularly one that they're merely capable of rather than designed for?

[Lmnop]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Warriors used to be nothing. Perceived as not a great tank, and not a great DD. When it was discovered how nuts war/nin damage output could be while not having to worry about retaliation, the "zomg /nin = double damage" ideas running rampant; the desire to be the awesome DD attracted just that: people who wanted to be top dog DD. Not people who want to work extra hard coordinating their [ignorant, prejudice] party to put forth the extra effort to help them tank just as well as a PLD or NIN.

It's pretty simple why Warriors went the way of the DD.

Red Mages could perform many roles, including main heal. When you can do multiple things, you always end up doing what's needed most, most often.

Blue mages knew from the get-go. If they start doing "support-y" things, it's all they'll do.

And there's my anecdotal view of the world.

[Ziero]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Whether it's true or not isn't the point. You don't invite someone to a party and then openly complain about them the entire time. If you invite a WHM to main heal a merit party, don't complain during the party that you wish a RDM had been seeking instead. If you pick up a THF and a RNG for your merit party, don't complain to the party that exp would have been faster if you had been able to pick up 4 SAMs.

Well that I can agree with, it wasn't your fault that the pt was set up as it was. But at the same time, I don't think it's insulting to say one class shines in a role more then another, as long as they weren't blaming it on you personally. If they were saying that *another* war could do better, then I might have been insulted...and possibly a bit curious as to how. But to say a job better designed to tank is better at tanking wouldn't insult me. Infact I remember a mid 50-ish PT I had once where I was tanking Colibri as a War, and even I noted that Plds would be much better at it. When a member left, and we got a Pld rep, the difference was very clear and I happily went full out offense.

The fact that you solo tanked Raptors on a War with no PT deaths and positive EXP gain is something to be proud of, and despite complaints about desiring another class to fill the role, the PT should have at least made not of your ability to do the job right.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Well, and I'm saying this as a War, it IS easier to work with a Pld because they get far more hate holding abilities and damage mitigation then War.

Whether it's true or not isn't the point. You don't invite someone to a party and then openly complain about them the entire time. If you invite a WHM to main heal a merit party, don't complain during the party that you wish a RDM had been seeking instead. If you pick up a THF and a RNG for your merit party, don't complain to the party that exp would have been faster if you had been able to pick up 4 SAMs.

[Akashimo]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Amen to that Aka... it seems there's always a massive mage shortage on Seraph when it comes to forming a party.
Lately though I've been having problems getting DDs... someone care to explain that one to me? @. @

I'm guessing leeching at resest hnm timers?
<.<; I've noticed a lot more than usuall dd at simmy since monday >.>;

[Malacite]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Amen to that Aka... it seems there's always a massive mage shortage on Seraph when it comes to forming a party.


Lately though I've been having problems getting DDs... someone care to explain that one to me? @. @

[Ziero]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Don't pin that on just the "WAR community". Players from all different jobs in this game had a hand in that.
I remember tanking in the late 50s/early 60s as WAR/NIN in the Valley of Sorrows. It was one of these deals where the party obviously wanted a PLD tank, but got tired of waiting and waiting for one to pop up LFG, but finally "settled" for a WAR tank.
Throughout the party, the main healer kept making comments how PLD tanks were much easier to work with, and kept giving me suggestions on how I could tank better. Suggestions like eating DEF food and using Defender. It wasn't like I was tanking in a Hauby. No one died the whole party, but it didn't stop them from complaining about being stuck with a WAR tank.
They could have at least saved their ranting for their LS chat. To do it openly in party chat where your tank sees all of it?

Well, and I'm saying this as a War, it IS easier to work with a Pld because they get far more hate holding abilities and damage mitigation then War. It takes more then voke and high def to be a good tank, so it *is* harder for a War to tank then a decent pld or a good nin. And I'm saying this as someone who's tried tanking 60+ *willingly*. In fact, I volunteered for the damn role to keep the pt going. Though without a pt that's able to work with it's own members, it just will not work. Where a Pld only needs refresh of some sort, and Nins need haste, a War needs a lot more effort to tank from his entire pt.

Though just because it's not the best option doesn't mean I won't do my best to make it work.

...which brings me to this 'pinkmage' crap. You, as a Rdm, are one of THREE jobs in the *entire game* who get naturally occuring, readily availible curing abilities. Yes, Blu and Smn have natural cures, but theirs are very limited. As such, as a Rdm, to be the best Rdm you can be, if you're needed to main heal you should be able to main heal. It is not an insult to the class to ask it to do something so few classes can actually do. Case in point, other day I had a full pt against Colibiri start to break up. The Nin tank left because he didn't like tanking birds(despite the constant C5-C6s), the Smn main healer...a galka of all things who could both buff AND use attack BPs while main healing...d/c'd and never came back and we were left with two Sam/Thfs, a War/Nin and a Rdm/Whm. We were about to break when one of the Sams decided to 'solo' an IT bird with his 2 hour. Next thing you know we're pulling in 4 man C5s against high VT-low IT mobs every 5-6 minutes with the only healer being that Rdm. Had he decided he didn't want to main heal, we would have gain nothing. Instead we got at least 6k exp in all of 40-50 minutes.

And yes, as a War, I did attempt to tank...but it's hard to hold hate from 1k Gekkos.

Long story short, if you can do something for a party, you do it. It's not an insult to ask a class that has natural abilities to do something. And it's not 'pidgeon-holing' to ask a class to focus on a single aspect in an Exp pt...so that *everyone* is stronger in every other aspect of the game. There's plenty of other things a Rdm can enfeeble and nuke in this game besides TP burn mobs. And that's where the balance lies...as there is more to this game then EXPing.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

The WAR community made a huge push years ago to be removed from the random tank ranks into the DD slot they're in now.

Don't pin that on just the "WAR community". Players from all different jobs in this game had a hand in that.

I remember tanking in the late 50s/early 60s as WAR/NIN in the Valley of Sorrows. It was one of these deals where the party obviously wanted a PLD tank, but got tired of waiting and waiting for one to pop up LFG, but finally "settled" for a WAR tank.

Throughout the party, the main healer kept making comments how PLD tanks were much easier to work with, and kept giving me suggestions on how I could tank better. Suggestions like eating DEF food and using Defender. It wasn't like I was tanking in a Hauby. No one died the whole party, but it didn't stop them from complaining about being stuck with a WAR tank.

They could have at least saved their ranting for their LS chat. To do it openly in party chat where your tank sees all of it?

[Akashimo]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

And, "Enfeeb Onry" isn't pigeonholing?

Its our basic and strongest function that when played right, reduce trouble party gets. Any dd burn makes it almost impossible to enfeeble fast enough before the mob dies. Or mp runs out faster.

Are you really being forced to main heal only? Or just never bothered to ask if the party leader can get another mage into the party?

I always put {main} {heal!} {no thanks} in my search comment.
By asking for me to party with that there, they acknowledge what I'm not there for.

I see SMN and WHM in party all the time. Much more often than BRDs, that's for sure. Don't appreciate people tell me to go level WHM when they think so little of healers. >_> A part of playing Red Mage well is being able to main heal when needed-- it's insulting to see such derisive term as "heal monkey". The ability to function as a main healer as RDM/WHM in a group of six is just as much of the job as being able to function as a one-man, "no down time" skill up party on Steelshells in Boyahda Tree as RDM/NIN.

Well lucky you, your server must be filled with more mages than where I'm at.
<.<; When needed, not ALWAYS. Don't get those mixed up. Seriously, there is a difference on mp used between the jobs. One that sickens you when you heal on rdm. Cure V 600+ hp for 135 mp and no hate compared to 4 or 3. Regen II and Regen III plus ability to merit it with higher hp per ticks, with Regen III costing 64 mp and can recover base around 20 hp a tick for a total of 400 mp. Amount of healing of a Cure 4, for less mp and enmity. Lets not forget Pro/Shell ra, same mp for the single target, but all AoE, much more mp effient than casting a single buff over and over.
I use the term heal monkey because in general, that what pink maging has reduced us to in the eyes of the exp/merit communities.
We aren't talking about skill ups. I could care less if anyone chooses to heal how they want in those, but in exp and merits, i do. Skill ups != exp/merit playing styles.

[Nekoterra]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Being rdm and choose not to main heal isn't one deminsional by choice, its for sanity and pride. If anything is truely one deminsional, its the parties that sees us only as a one deminsional job.

i find that kind of funny because i will happily main heal for my own sanity and pride, give me a pld and/or a a blu who will give some suport stoneskinga and curaga and we have a purfect party, you have to relize that main healing isn't because people are out to be mean to you, it's because there's no-one else to do the job, on a normal day when i check the list of who's seeking i'll see about 20 DD maybe 3 tanks and 0 healers counting all rdm, smn, and even blm has healers yes if smn can main heal i see no reason why a blm can't honestly, suck it up, some xp is better then none, once scholar is out there whm might be more popular but that has yet to be seen, but honestly in all due respect if you can main heal and you refuse to your denying yourself and 5 other people from posible exp

BLM is a freaking nuke specialist. Its only real versatility is in having a few enfeebles and nominally being able to choose the right element for the job. The "versatility" you're demanding that BLM embrace is the "versatility" to fall into the same ghetto as SMN -- being invited for their subjob, at the expense of what the job they actually chose to play can do. Even though BLM isn't underpowered like SMN is, and shouldn't have to settle for such a thing.

spoken like a true blm, and this is the very reason i hate them and don't give them refreash most of the time, i see blm all the time with this "I can't suport the party attitude" it's degrading and only hurts the party in the long run, do you think that maybe this is the main reason people don't like to party with them?