Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Magic's effectiveness should be dependent on level--whether that's exp level or skill level, I'm not sure, but that's not really relevant. Offensive magic is determined by level of the target and the caster, while non-offensive magic is based on the level of the caster alone.

Healing magic has low caps, but it's not breaking the rules, I think--its effectiveness is determined by level. Is the lower caps themselves somehow rule breaking? Maybe, but if Cure I heals 400 HP for WHM75, why bother to have Cure IV at all? Clearly a relatively low cap or low growth curve is needed, and lower cap is easier to implement.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Healing skill is somewhat inconsistent with other magic skills in the degree it influences spell effectiveness, but that in itself doesn't create a problem for the game. Rather I would say it averts one. If whm was the only really good healer with pld, blu and rdm trailing in a tie for second the way war trails in 3rd place as a tank job, we'd have people clamouring that there weren't enough tanks or healers.

If anything, I'd say it's the other skills that are broken for being so blatantly ineffective from subjobs. Whm is "the only subjob that that provides any options." Isn't the fact that all the other choices are bad much worse than the one choice being actually good?

The real problems are with smn main, non-whm mage subs and to a lesser extent whm main, not with whm sub. I say let's stick to fixing what's actually broken.

Interesting inversion of perspective: what you're saying is, instead of nerf the one, buff the rest.

That's something that I do not disagree with.

[Lmnop]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Your math's off. 3 STR for 2 Attack is 66.7% (and the lowest I'd accept as possibly being balanced). 75% would be 4 STR for 3 Attack, and is what I feel they should try. If 75% is too low -- and I doubt it would be -- then 80%, or 5 STR for 4 Attack, is what I feel they should try next. -- Pteryx

How embarrassing! Thank you.

[Pteryx]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

If anything, I'd say it's the other skills that are broken for being so blatantly ineffective from subjobs. Whm is "the only subjob that that provides any options." Isn't the fact that all the other choices are bad much worse than the one choice being actually good?

The real problems are with smn main, non-whm mage subs and to a lesser extent whm main, not with whm sub. I say let's stick to fixing what's actually broken.

If this actually happened, I'd be quite happy. It'd have loads of versatility benefits. -- Pteryx

[Malacite]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

TM makes a good point. Either SE nerfs /WHM, or boosts the effectiveness of other magic types to not be so gimp when subbed.


and MP endurance is only one of SMN's problems. Sub par avatar damage and mostly worthless blood pacts until you can pile on +skill items and/or are 65+. You can't seriously say people invite SMN to exp (very often) to actually summon. It's all about the WHM. And yes, I do have experience with the job, I played it quite a bit on my taru until I retired that character, was at one time in an all SMN shell and have quite a few SMN friends who seriously hated having to main heal all the time and having lolpacts.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

The isn't a problem with healing skill:

SMN and WHM's problem is, again, MP endurance. This is why WHMs can't keep up with burn PTs and SMNs can't keep avatars out all the time and do all the pacts they'd like to do. They need endurance.

WHM suffers from RDM's ability to heal not because of healing skill, but because SE took RDM's White Magic one tier too far and combined with RDM's MP endurance, it makes them more than adequate for the main healer slot.

These are the facts you guys seem to be content to overlook. The healer role is not the problem, its how SMN presently functions as its main job that's the problem.

SE seems to be addressing MP endurance for SMN with this Spirit concept. As far as WHM goes, I think SE is looking at Scholar to be a booster subjob for mages, WHM included, possibly SMN as well. If Black and White Stratagem JAs can affect pacts, that could give SMN another sub to play with and something more to do than be a straight healer, though they would still be expected to fufill that role at times.

[Taskmage]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

There seems to be a lot of fire and brimstone over the "nerfing' of /WHM, that is will somehow herald the end of the game as we know it. Last I checked, whenever there was a major change, people bitched, adapted, and moved on. Experience parties and HNMs and events won't suddenly come grinding to a halt because healing suddenly takes more effort.
So what if it hurts SMN? It should. SMN 1-74 have been invited for little more than the only subjob that that provides any options, rather than for being a SMN.
Veteran SMN aren't fine with it, they've just become used to it for lack of other options. Knock the crutch for under them, they will fall, and it will become really apparent what SMN as a main is worth on it's own. Yes, they will flounder for awhile. They may even become the DRG of the era(no disrespect to DRGs, I'm simply referring to the rep), but since anyone only ever sees job health in terms of invites, if SMN's invites suffer, then that will be the big flare in S-E's face that some changes need to be made.
How about, instead of copping to the inconvenience of fixing Healing skill, acknowledging that maybe Healing skill should work just like every other skill? There's no reason C- or half-level skill should suit a party anywhere nearly as capably as A ranked skill. There should be no reason that just anyone can eek by with a bit of MND--or worse--just a lot of MP spamming Cures inefficiently.
The value of just about every other spell or weapon is reflected in the amount of skill the user has, Healing skill and Cures should be no different, even if it is inconvenient.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Healing skill is somewhat inconsistent with other magic skills in the degree it influences spell effectiveness, but that in itself doesn't create a problem for the game. Rather I would say it averts one. If whm was the only really good healer with pld, blu and rdm trailing in a tie for second the way war trails in 3rd place as a tank job, we'd have people clamouring that there weren't enough tanks or healers.

If anything, I'd say it's the other skills that are broken for being so blatantly ineffective from subjobs. Whm is "the only subjob that that provides any options." Isn't the fact that all the other choices are bad much worse than the one choice being actually good?

The real problems are with smn main, non-whm mage subs and to a lesser extent whm main, not with whm sub. I say let's stick to fixing what's actually broken.

[BurningPanther]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

There seems to be a lot of fire and brimstone over the "nerfing' of /WHM, that is will somehow herald the end of the game as we know it. Last I checked, whenever there was a major change, people bitched, adapted, and moved on. Experience parties and HNMs and events won't suddenly come grinding to a halt because healing suddenly takes more effort.

So what if it hurts SMN? It should. SMN 1-74 have been invited for little more than the only subjob that that provides any options, rather than for being a SMN.

Veteran SMN aren't fine with it, they've just become used to it for lack of other options. Knock the crutch for under them, they will fall, and it will become really apparent what SMN as a main is worth on it's own. Yes, they will flounder for awhile. They may even become the DRG of the era(no disrespect to DRGs, I'm simply referring to the rep), but since anyone only ever sees job health in terms of invites, if SMN's invites suffer, then that will be the big flare in S-E's face that some changes need to be made.



How about, instead of copping to the inconvenience of fixing Healing skill, acknowledging that maybe Healing skill should work just like every other skill? There's no reason C- or half-level skill should suit a party anywhere nearly as capably as A ranked skill. There should be no reason that just anyone can eek by with a bit of MND--or worse--just a lot of MP spamming Cures inefficiently.

The value of just about every other spell or weapon is reflected in the amount of skill the user has, Healing skill and Cures should be no different, even if it is inconvenient.

[Taskmage]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

On nin tanking, I would say nobody complains about it because it's fun. There are lots of moment to moment skilltests to perform and interesting choices to make about builds and playstyle. I would say those are the reasons why skillful players enjoy any job. As Itazura illustrated early on, people who like whm like it for many of the same reasons, it's just that fewer people are able to appreciate those nuances of that job. Taking it the other direction, I would guess that the lack of those things is why war tanking fell out of style, rather than a lack of effectiveness. There just isn't that much to do as a war tank other than keep beating the voke drum and balance berserk/defender usage, which isn't completely devoid of finesse but doesn't occupy that much of your time either.

Edit: Oh and people who would be interested in nin's alternate roles of ranged attacker and enfeebling support can get those playstyles elsewhere to different degrees in rdm and cor, and to a lesser extent rng and thf through bolts. Obviously if they want to play a DD with shadow support they can war/nin. Smn presents the promise of a unique play experience that no other job can compare to, but doesn't really deliver as people expect.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Endgame is a very fickle thing.

Big talk from somone that's not in endgame. If you are any kind of support class or mage, /WHM is a fixture there for many jobs and its a fixture for a reason.

It works.

And, if a Summoner's only incentive for invitation was to be another /WHM, I would personally prefer if they lost that one and got a real incentive for invitation (the part in bold's important, as that's the point you seem to be missing).

So your solution for headlice is decapitation? I'm "missing the point" because its not a point, its a bad idea. You're placing what you want for the job ahead of what your "solution" would do to the job. It would destroy what little SMN has to give now in EXP PTs. You'd be damning SMN to a career soloist job.

I don't need more "soloists" in my BSTs camps or my BST's ability to solo gimped for the sake of another job, so lets think of a REAL solution.

I still think that you're missing the point that, if a job is nothing more than their subjob, than there's a problem.

I think a lot of you - who don't have SMN level and, more notably, no support classes leveled - are just making a huge fuss over something you don't want to do and won't level the job because of it. Most of the 75 SMNs we do have here don't make so much of a fuss.

Next you'll cry and cry about having to spend money on tools and ammo for jobs like NIN, COR and RNG.

And where's the rage for NIN being pigeonholed as a tank? Some people would level that if it wasn't percieved as just a tank.

[Taskmage]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

I think I can agree with Yellow Mage's interpretation.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

No, the 2 handed weapon update is how it should have been from day fucking one.

No, it shouldn't.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

2H Weapons keep their 1 STR = 1 Attack, and the 1 DEX = 1 Accuracy adjustment is given to the 1H Weapons.

[Pteryx]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

I still think from the get-go, they should've done .75 ratio. e.g. 1 handed weapons get 2 str to 1 attack (or 4 str for 2 attack), 2 handers would need 3 str for 2 attack. Right in between where it is now and where it used to be. I'd be satisfied with that. And I wouldn't feel like Zanshin became a marginal ability.

Your math's off. 3 STR for 2 Attack is 66.7% (and the lowest I'd accept as possibly being balanced). 75% would be 4 STR for 3 Attack, and is what I feel they should try. If 75% is too low -- and I doubt it would be -- then 80%, or 5 STR for 4 Attack, is what I feel they should try next. -- Pteryx

[Lmnop]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

I still think from the get-go, they should've done .75 ratio. e.g. 1 handed weapons get 2 str to 1 attack (or 4 str for 2 attack), 2 handers would need 3 str for 2 attack. Right in between where it is now and where it used to be. I'd be satisfied with that. And I wouldn't feel like Zanshin became a marginal ability.