Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

[Arctic Wolf]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

From reading all these posts, I get the impression it's impossible to put a party together. People want to do this, don't want to do that, and putting that in their search comments. That seems perfectly fine, play however you want, at level 75.
It is incredibly frustrating at any level between 25(ish) and 70+ to stand around looking for party for hours or creating a party, when you constantly encounter players not wanting to do certain tasks. Red Mages or Summoners not wanting to main heal,
some other person doesn't want to be a replacement, a Samurai doesn't want to pull, a melee job not wanting to sub Warrior to help the Thief using SaTa, a Warrior not wanting to tank at a low level where he should be capable to do so, even with his two axes, and so on. Maybe, for example, a black mage not wanting to main heal could be understandable.. perhaps they just don't make a good enough main healer at their current level. That's understandable. But if you always expect to be able to do just that what you want to do, or complain about a certain task put to you, you're really not helping the "leveling process" of this game. At level 75, by all means go look for a party that is completely the way you desire, but at lower levels please be versatile. If you feel too often enforced to doing something you don't want to do, then it's not bad to turn down a party invite once in a while because you don't want to do a certain task again.

If you always expect to play any way you want, you don't fit in this game's leveling community.

Ps.: I level a tank job together with my friend's Thief. In our search comment it states clearly enough that we're a set. 75% of the invites are from people who appearantly have a bug in their game and can not read search comments. Once again, very frustrating in the long run. I'd like to see an improvement in the search system, however I currently can't think of a good and realistic way.

[Pteryx]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

As long as we're talking meleeing WHMs, I find myself wondering how viable /DNC is going to turn out. If it's good enough, it could give WHM (or RDM?) the chance to actually hit things by turning TP into the new MP. The drain-to-the-party step for general maintenance, their actual MP for spike healing... Let's hope SE actually made this something that could actually work. (Unlike, say, the self-bursting SAM/BLM suggested earlier, who would suffer from too many resists. Hmph, "nothing in the game mechanics to stop you" indeed...) They do seem to have learned somewhat, in that BLU physical spells rely partially on your skill in your currently wielded weapon. Sure, you wouldn't get to use weaponskills, but it'd still be melee mage enough for me. -- Pteryx

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

The two-handed update may have made WHM's use of Spirit Taker more viable on T-VT monsters: http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/jobs.h...98724341125678

Not sure if I should believe it or not... *shrug*

[Nuriko]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

I've tried using Moonlight in skillup parties, it didn't seem terribly good. That's a good situation for it, though ... lots of people are going to have at least some healing ability. The big MP-font is supposed to be Spirit Taker, but it's high-level and WHM staff is only C+.

[Akashimo]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Having been in a static with a melee whm I'll say it can certainly be done, wasn't overly impressed with Moonlight though, Brenna's Moonlights tended to restore about 18-24 mp, not alot but not bad either since that is 18-24 mp to the entire party. This was around lvl 50 on Kuftal Tunnel crabs if that makes a difference.
Of course later on, what is Whm's staff skill? Would Spirit Taker be useful?

Whm wouldn't get that til 70. If they should staff over the mighty hexa @_@;

[Vyuru]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

I've been thinking more and more about WHM meleeing, Lv.43+; Stoneskin and Blink to absorb damage AoE's, B+ Club skill, and Moonlight for MP restore--might work out very nicely for a MP using front line.

Having been in a static with a melee whm I'll say it can certainly be done, wasn't overly impressed with Moonlight though, Brenna's Moonlights tended to restore about 18-24 mp, not alot but not bad either since that is 18-24 mp to the entire party. This was around lvl 50 on Kuftal Tunnel crabs if that makes a difference.

Of course later on, what is Whm's staff skill? Would Spirit Taker be useful?

[Akashimo]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

I've had a pld in Bibiki bay who'd use a Club and shield and did nothing but spam moonlight, even though we had a refresher. One of the few impressive feats i've seen out of the norm.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Actually, it would be nice if SMN has other support job options. If that doesn't involve significant nerfing of /WHM, it'd be great. Scholar, perhaps? There may be more possibility with /PUP as well, but I don't know PUP well enough to say for sure.

* * *

Oddly enough, most BLUs I've seen who do great damage also do more than just DD; they DD, but also debuff, and/or TA the tank, and/or toss out Magic Fruit.

* * *

I've been thinking more and more about WHM meleeing, Lv.43+; Stoneskin and Blink to absorb damage AoE's, B+ Club skill, and Moonlight for MP restore--might work out very nicely for a MP using front line.

Not going to work with all critters (darn you, Imps!) or all party setups, but WHM's DD output can good enough to justify feeding (more) TP to the critters, especially so if the likes of PLD, BLU, and DRK can get good chunk of MP out of the effort.

The added bonus is that it'd be easier to apply group buffs, too, since the WHM will be right where those who need buffs are. The bad thing is giving up Light Staff for Cures, but considering 40 MP extra for PLD is practically a Cure III saved, that may not be as bad of a deal as it sounds.

[Nataka]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Blue mages dont debuff? Really? XD But their debuffs do damage!

The only reason I can think of them not doing that is MP shortage...I mean, I have had bards in parties that just COMPLAIN the entire time they have to ballad a blue mage, even if he's trying to be good and go near the mages when it happens.

But then again perhaps I just have a different idea for blue mage then most people do. In my vision I wanna be a melee mage, and when I say that I want to be someone that can deal a good amount of damage while throwing out debuffs and saving party members from death when I can. That and fill roles that are absent in the party. :)

But i can understand why people might not want this, 'cause they have a different vision of the job and want to adapt it to that.

[Taskmage]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Don't forget

Summoner
-reason to invite to a party without /whm

[Lmnop]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

No matter how "elite" it became during RoZ, I was still the only Warrior that I knew that carried defense and offense swaps. Any "pure" DD job certainly didn't use swaps of any sort. So in that regard, I don't think we've fallen so far since AU.

The fact that I explained the phenomena in no way meant that I condone it. I tell it like it is (or as I see, as I tagged at the bottom of the post). Not how I wish it were.

But while I'm on the subject. We want:

Warrior
-to come equipped with multiple capped weapons for SC options.
-willingness to take one for the team (Shield Break)
-gear to tank
-reason to tank some of the time. But also DD often. And incentive to enjoy both roles.

Red Mage
-reason to enfeeble.
-reason to nuke occasionally?
-reason to melee occasionally?
-incentive to main heal sometimes, without it becoming their full time job.

Blue Mage
-reason to do everything their job has to offer instead of DD spell spam. Method to keep them from adopting full time support role.

---------

Noticing a trend? A method for "hybrid" jobs to stay hybrids. Something that prevents the player base from doing what humans naturally do -- value specialization. Red Mage: the Christopher Walken of mages.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

This may be taking a good idea to the extreme and turn it into a bad idea. RDM can be the main healer, but Akashimo doesn't want to be one--that should be perfectly fine. If a WAR doesn't want to tank, he shouldn't have to. After all, we know RDM can tank, but we wouldn't expect most of the LFG RDMs to have the gears and macros set up for it, so the same goes for WARs these days.

And Akashimo specifies as such in his comment, which is all well and good until you're the only possible, viable healer seeking. After that point, its an annoyance to PT leaders and seen as being a primadonna. RDMs know they can hold out and get what they want (well, until the 70s, anyway, the pimp hype caught up with RDM), melees don't have that advantage in their favor.

I didn't like main healing on RDM, but I can and still do it if I find myself in that role and that is what's needed. I still enfeeble, though. I dusted off RDM this week to do Ouryu, I was the main healer. Its like riding a bicycle, not really something one forgets. Its a really draining bicycle, but do you think tanking or pulling aren't?

I don't like pulling on Corsair, but I have /NIN, a low delay gun, loads of light cards, a nice AGI build and a complete disregard for my EXP. I will scare away a manteele BRD if I have to. I'm not gonna sit there and grumble about not having AoE sleep and not having Haste buff, I put on the Swift Belt, the whalra turban and I get to pulling.

[Akashimo]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

I honestly do which they improve the search function so that headaches like these would decline sharply like a nail to the head. Its probally the reason we all are complaining/talking on here at this point because how limited search is, makes it harder for us to set ourselves open to a group and get playing styles messages across in a pointblank range with no second guessing. That's just me or the gummy bears with iced tea kicking in.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Whatever the trends and attitudes may be for any job or party setup, I still don't see that as a justifiable excuse not to be prepared for a role your job can offer.

This may be taking a good idea to the extreme and turn it into a bad idea. RDM can be the main healer, but Akashimo doesn't want to be one--that should be perfectly fine. If a WAR doesn't want to tank, he shouldn't have to. After all, we know RDM can tank, but we wouldn't expect most of the LFG RDMs to have the gears and macros set up for it, so the same goes for WARs these days.

There should be a balance between the desires of the individuals and the community. Once you accept an invite and the role you're invited for, you're obligated to tailor your play style for the maximum benefit of the party. Just that you're always free to decline invitation for roles you're not interested in.

Of course, just as one party may decide to pass over a RDM who refuses to main heal, another in desperate need of a tank may decide to pass over WARs who aren't set up for it and go to a SAM willing to experiment and have some gears to try.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

When it was discovered how nuts war/nin damage output could be while not having to worry about retaliation, the "zomg /nin = double damage" ideas running rampant; the desire to be the awesome DD attracted just that: people who wanted to be top dog DD. Not people who want to work extra hard coordinating their [ignorant, prejudice] party to put forth the extra effort to help them tank just as well as a PLD or NIN.

Whatever the trends and attitudes may be for any job or party setup, I still don't see that as a justifiable excuse to not be prepared for a role your job can offer.

WHMs don't want to cure a WAR tank? Boo Hoo, they shouldn't have taken the invite - do everything you can to support him if you want EXP in that PT, otherwise go back to seeking.

While I loathe the endgame content RoZ brought us, I do miss the level of elitism the game had back during that time and CoP. People actually made the effort to prepare their jobs for most contingencies so they could always capitalize on every EXP opportunity. ToA has spoiled players rotten and they don't even make a 10th of that effort now.

The jobs with lesser invites also usually put forth a stronger effort. I've known very few THFs that were low-quality players. I know PUPs that try to cover every angle.

Most people just seem to bank on the name of their jobs, which is why I find WARs, RDMs and BRDs to be disgusting in general for their lack of effort. I already ranted about CORs this week, I won't even go into that again. Support roles and popular roles are not a license to play gimped.