Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

[Pteryx]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Of course, what we still don't know at this point what WotG EXP camps will hold. Everyone's assuming the trend of EXPing on T and VT mobs will hold. For all we know, Sanction might take a hit next week to move us out into the new zones or WotG mobs might give better EXP by default. If IT++ mobs are the EXP trend again, RDM will be more focused on enfeebling, PLD tanking will become more relevant again, WHM would probably get their healer spot back, etc.

My concern is that Campaign is going to be what prevents WotG zones from harboring the camps that save FFXI. Part of what Campaign means, as far as I can tell, is that any WotG zone could be attacked at any time. That doesn't sound like something that allows for uninterrupted XP parties -- and I don't mean "uninterrupted" as in "chain infinity", either. These will be the first zones in which the game can suddenly smack you upside the head with an unsolicited change of activity from XPing to something you didn't intend to do.

No one hangs around in Al Zahbi unless a Besieged is building up. I have a sinking feeling, and I hope I'm wrong, that WotG zones will have the same problem despite the likely presence of good XP mobs in some of them. -- Pteryx

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

and that leaves one job to heal the other 17. (More after WotG - the same people who want RDM and SMN to not have to cure all the time will almost certainly want the same for SCH, on similar grounds.)

Well, scholar can only dedicate itself to one school of magic at a time, barring subjobs perhaps. People who come into play Dancer and Scholar purely for DD purposes are only going to set themselves up for disappointment. Dancer's design is very anti-WS, that is, unless they're granted TP-free WS somehow (which could be Kreigstanz).

Scholar was built to have a healer function, but also have a place in nuking. I know healing is going to be part of this gig and a big one, so I don't have a right to bitch about being invited to heal more than nuke. But I'll still nuke when I see a chance.

Of course, what we still don't know at this point what WotG EXP camps will hold. Everyone's assuming the trend of EXPing on T and VT mobs will hold. For all we know, Sanction might take a hit next week to move us out into the new zones or WotG mobs might give better EXP by default. If IT++ mobs are the EXP trend again, RDM will be more focused on enfeebling, PLD tanking will become more relevant again, WHM would probably get their healer spot back, etc.

Then there's our likely"Campaigne" buff we know nothing about. If it gives a strong incentive, this may also change the EXP situation, not to mention 30 high level zones could get people even more spread out for more EXP options - that's a lot more that CoP and ToA gave us. If people are still cramming themselves into the same three ToA camps after next week, that's just sad.

[Taskmage]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

I knew Rolling Thunder was bad, but I didn't know it was THAT bad. But it still seems like you're focusing on the trees rather than the forest. All I'm saying is there should be notable mainjob abilities that the community identifies the job with rather that thinking of them as just a healer. It's true that smn does have some abilities that are in fact quite useful, but it's not exclusively the community's fault that buff and dubuff BPs are underappreciated. Many of them genuinely suck and the that are good have effects that are difficult to percieve without a parser.

If you think that RDM wasn't designed to be a main healer, and SMN wasn't designed to be a main healer, then you probably also think that BLM and BLU weren't designed to be main healers...

Don't go putting words in my mouth. Have you not read any of my posts gnashing at the "pink mage" camp, advocating whm as the only justifiable sub for smn and happily welcoming blu as a new possible main heal?

[Malacite]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Well, if you expect anyone to invite for Rolling Thunder you really *haven't* leveled SMN. I'm only SMN40 but that's enough to see that Rolling Thunder is horribly gimp. +2 damage per hit if you're lucky - usually 1.

You completely missed his point there. I believe he meant that just as a random example of how no one invites a SMN for a specific buff or pact, and really just for the cure battery.


That said, I really wish SE would nerf /WHM by making healing skill affect cure potency a lot more (with high skill levels making for very strong cures, even cure 1). At the same time, SMN should be changed so that when subbing WHM, instead of relying on the cures, the healing skill and extra MND should boost healing pacts similar to blue magic.

That would be a lot more unique IMO and much more flavorful. It was also make things interesting since it would be carbuncle/garuda/leviathan getting all the hate for the cure spikes instead of the SMN. That's how it should really work IMO, with the SMN then tossing out a few cures inbetween but mostly focusing on the strategic use of blood pacts.

The same should be done with /BLM and offensive pacts (maybe even melee subs to boost avatar performance and encourage SMN melee?)


It's the same principal that Scholar apparently works on, so why the hell not SMN? It's a damn good way to shift the focus back onto the pets rather than /WHM.




Also, BBQ, this is rather off topic but since you brought up COR and BRD subs, how does a COR/BLM with MAB gear and HQ staves do with QD? Oh and it's so true what you said about BRD. Almost every PT I got into while leveling BRD recently (thank god I can stop @71) no one ever seemed to give a damn about what I subbed. I"d ask them "WHM RDM NIN or WAR?" and they'd usually either just say WHM , do whatever I want, or simply not care to even answer.

Though it was funny as hell meleeing against lesser colibri as a 56 BRD and taking hate off the tank with /WAR buffs and food with a gimp sword skill lmao. Schlaeger ftw

[Karinya]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

I should preface myself again by saying that I haven't leveled smn signficantly so my opinions on the matter should be taken with a grain of salt. That said, it's my impression that people don't invite smns, they invite /whms. Nobody ever thinks "This nin would be untouchable with Earthen Ward" or "With Aerial Armor this TP-burn could all switch to more effective DD subs without putting too much strain on the healer" or "Meteorite MB would be great at this level" and certainly not "Imagine how much more damage these mnks and thfs and nins would be doing with Rolling Thunder." Instead it's "We need Cures and this /whm is all that's seeking" with any additional benefits provided by smn main as an afterthought at best.

Well, if you expect anyone to invite for Rolling Thunder you really *haven't* leveled SMN. I'm only SMN40 but that's enough to see that Rolling Thunder is horribly gimp. +2 damage per hit if you're lucky - usually 1.

Putting that aside, though: sure, lots of people don't understand or appreciate SMN. But player ignorance isn't SE's fault or problem. Despite a few really broken (in the bad way) BPs, SMNs *are* effective for more than just cures, whether most players know it or not. But most people won't realize that they kicked more ass than usual because of your Lunar Cry, they probably have your pet filtered so they don't see your BP:Rage damage at all, and even if they saw your contributions individually, they wouldn't mentally add them up to see how much you are doing for the party total.

I'm all for subjob flexibility and I think it would be great if smns got that. Barring that, I'm all for choosing the subjob that best supplements your job and I'm fine with that sub being whm for smn. But what I'm really getting at is that people should be able to look at a main job smn and see something worth inviting before considering how the subjob choice affects that evaluation.

I agree, but I think the lack of sexiness of SMN is in the mind of the beholders; once you actually have one, they're quite useful (and not just for their subjob). Now that they can use twice as many bloodpacts as before, they can pull their weight in a party without casting a single cure spell. (Although I don't recommend trying it if there's no other healer in the party!)

However.

If you think that RDM wasn't designed to be a main healer, and SMN wasn't designed to be a main healer, then you probably also think that BLM and BLU weren't designed to be main healers...

and that leaves one job to heal the other 17. (More after WotG - the same people who want RDM and SMN to not have to cure all the time will almost certainly want the same for SCH, on similar grounds.)

Personally I'm a fan of split-healing parties - RDM+SMN and things like that - since most non-main healers can do something else useful *and* do some healing (definitely including SMN). But on very weak mobs, it's inefficient to have more backline characters - they aren't killing something every 30 seconds because they need MP or aren't a damage-focused job at all.

SMN, like RDM, have a lot of ways to keep the monster from killing the party, but relatively few effective ways to make the party kill the monster faster. Ungimp Rolling Thunder and give Crimson Roar a real duration and that would change, but for now there's the Fenrir acc buff, Hastega (which is darn short iirc) and... well, you can try to do it by debuffing, but in a meleeburn you can't hit every mob that way.

A return to CoP era monster toughness and the party setups that went with it would help SMN, like it would help so many other jobs hosed by the ToAU shifts in party dynamics. A SMN alongside a RDM, BLU, SCH or even one of the rare helpful BLMs could split healing while helping the party with BPs that work even when the other party members don't appreciate them.

The game was designed for exp parties to fight monsters of a certain level and difficulty compared to the players fighting them - and it shows. When you get further away from that designed level of monster, balance problems crop up and playstyle shifts away from the team tactics that some of us old players still remember.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

I should preface myself again by saying that I haven't leveled smn signficantly so my opinions on the matter should be taken with a grain of salt. That said, it's my impression that people don't invite smns, they invite /whms. Nobody ever thinks "This nin would be untouchable with Earthen Ward" or "With Aerial Armor this TP-burn could all switch to more effective DD subs without putting too much strain on the healer" or "Meteorite MB would be great at this level" and certainly not "Imagine how much more damage these mnks and thfs and nins would be doing with Rolling Thunder." Instead it's "We need Cures and this /whm is all that's seeking" with any additional benefits provided by smn main as an afterthought at best.

I'm all for subjob flexibility and I think it would be great if smns got that. Barring that, I'm all for choosing the subjob that best supplements your job and I'm fine with that sub being whm for smn. But what I'm really getting at is that people should be able to look at a main job smn and see something worth inviting before considering how the subjob choice affects that evaluation.

Well there's also the reverse problem - usually in the case of BRD or COR - in which the subjob isn't even cared about and it probably should be cared about a great deal. How good the main job isn't shouldn't completely overshadow what subjob you pick. I don't think any BRD should be allowed to get by without WHM or at least RDM or BLU sub. Conversely, there are far too many CORs (for what few there are) that try to limp by on /WHM and never consider bringing damage to table when they very capably could with /RNG. They try to bank on the buffs and dispels, but don't consider the full scope of what they could do in a PT.

No one has ever invited my COR to DD, I'm invited for other skills, but I'll show them I can and if they ask me to put on my WHM sub in a situation where I don't see the need for one, I'll tell them I'll go back to seeking. It doesn't bother me. And I do specify my interests in search comment, though they do vary.

Support classes should not be so powerful that their other skills are overlooked, but can you seriously show me one instance where you kicked a bad COR or BRD from PT based on subjob choice? Or, even further, on a lack of good gear?

I really cringe when I hear the rationale from PTs, "I don't care what else he does, so long a he refreshes me."

See also RDM on that one. No job should be able to eek by on a couple of spells/abilities.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

That said, it's my impression that people don't invite smns, they invite /whms. Nobody ever thinks "This nin would be untouchable with Earthen Ward" or "With Aerial Armor this TP-burn could all switch to more effective DD subs without putting too much strain on the healer" or "Meteorite MB would be great at this level" and certainly not "Imagine how much more damage these mnks and thfs and nins would be doing with Rolling Thunder." Instead it's "We need Cures and this /whm is all that's seeking" with any additional benefits provided by smn main as an afterthought at best.

Hmm. Same with NINs and PLDs, though. These days, it's "We're desperate for a tank! Anything in our range seeking?!" NINs are fine, PLDs are fine, and some people probably at the breaking point of asking WARs to tank, being so desperate to level up.

Every so often, we get posters who don't want to tank on NINs--and we blow them off, or school them to repeat the mantra "NINs HAVE TO tank!"

As for the non-tank, non-healer, non-support role jobs? We lump them all together as DDs, or "SAMs and the rest". Not exactly a model of gathering players for their unique abilities, either.

It may suck that many parties forget SMNs have Blood Pacts, but fundamentally I just don't see anything wrong with thought process like "We need healer--hmm, grab the SMN?"

* * *

I had a SMN in my merit party last night, who was tossing out cures and meleeing nearly full time on Greater Colibri--I had to remind him/her that Earthen Ward is good, before s/he stared using BPs. ^_^;;;; Should've also asked for Lv.70 DD BPs, but I was too busy passing all the Wind Crystals and Colibri Beaks and forgot.

[Taskmage]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

. . .

I should preface myself again by saying that I haven't leveled smn signficantly so my opinions on the matter should be taken with a grain of salt. That said, it's my impression that people don't invite smns, they invite /whms. Nobody ever thinks "This nin would be untouchable with Earthen Ward" or "With Aerial Armor this TP-burn could all switch to more effective DD subs without putting too much strain on the healer" or "Meteorite MB would be great at this level" and certainly not "Imagine how much more damage these mnks and thfs and nins would be doing with Rolling Thunder." Instead it's "We need Cures and this /whm is all that's seeking" with any additional benefits provided by smn main as an afterthought at best.

I'm all for subjob flexibility and I think it would be great if smns got that. Barring that, I'm all for choosing the subjob that best supplements your job and I'm fine with that sub being whm for smn. But what I'm really getting at is that people should be able to look at a main job smn and see something worth inviting before considering how the subjob choice affects that evaluation.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

All of your counterpoints to my little chart consist of "you can if you want to" but who in their right mind would?

Apparently very strong-willed and accomplished players with some initiative. God knows if a Warrior really wants a mission win, he'll do what he has to regardless of what would be more "efficient."

I couldn't give a damn if you can't get a PT to go with your RDM to the Boyahada Tree just so you can nuke and enfeeble, but if you keep trying, it can happen. ToA camps and their shoddy hub design, in addition to players to lazy to obtain outposts, make that difficult, but I've still had parties in CoP and Zilart camps post-55. Hell, I had an Lufaise Meadow PT where the RDM meleed in the midst of ToA. I wasn't impressed with the RDM melee, but we had fun otherwise.

These parties can and still do happen. I had a BLM and RDM in my LS camp there for EXP last week because they were invited, of all things, to camp and fight crawlers in the the tree. It still happens.

I can't even get my friends and LS to let me come war/sam most of the time, for crying out loud. And with good reason. My other 5 aren't given much incentive, eh?

Then your "friends" aren't really your friends. I can go RNG/WAR whenever I want and no one says "no" to me about it. Try growing a spine, stand up for what you want. If you can't do that, no one will respect you.

[Ziero]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

That list was meant to show things that can already be done, but never actually happen. So instead of telling me why these things that I know are possible are possible, think about why I'd ever do those things outside of "having fun, just to do something new." Because that will never motivate a RDM+BRD to join a party with a SMN/sam. I can't even get my friends and LS to let me come war/sam most of the time, for crying out loud. And with good reason. My other 5 aren't given much incentive, eh?

...the problem is, he's right. I know this because I've SEEN all that stuff done in game. I've had 60+ pts where Rdms threw out a nuke and enfeebled, there are times in the game where I tank as War, and I don't know what kind of crappy Blu you know that do nothing but DD spam, but the few Blus I know, that actually bother to get their spells, *use* their cures and debuffs ALONG with their absurdly high DD potential. If your friends don't let you go War/Sam, that's their fault not the games because that combination can work in an Exp pt, as well as other places outside of Exp...like the rest of the entire game. Infact most assaults I do are War/Sam as long as I have at least two support classes in my group, one of whom, more often then not, is a Rdm who nukes AND debuffs for fights we do.

And always remember, there is more to this game then Exp parties.

[Lmnop]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Great job, BBQ!

You've managed to twice in this thread completely misunderstand what I'm getting at!

There is no such "method."

Abraham Lincoln: "Hmm yeah, those people living in the south sure like their slaves. It's much easier for them to own other people, and we're never going to convince them they're wrong... hmm, maybe this Emancipation Proclamation I was gonna present to the people is a bad idea afterall. If only there was a method of making them see clearly... oh yeah, that's what we had a war for."

I'm sorry for the shoddy analogy, I'll try to be direct and clear as possible:

All of your counterpoints to my little chart consist of "you can if you want to" but who in their right mind would?

That list was meant to show things that can already be done, but never actually happen. So instead of telling me why these things that I know are possible are possible, think about why I'd ever do those things outside of "having fun, just to do something new." Because that will never motivate a RDM+BRD to join a party with a SMN/sam. I can't even get my friends and LS to let me come war/sam most of the time, for crying out loud. And with good reason. My other 5 aren't given much incentive, eh?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

No matter how "elite" it became during RoZ, I was still the only Warrior that I knew that carried defense and offense swaps. Any "pure" DD job certainly didn't use swaps of any sort. So in that regard, I don't think we've fallen so far since AU.

The fact that I explained the phenomena in no way meant that I condone it. I tell it like it is (or as I see, as I tagged at the bottom of the post). Not how I wish it were.

But while I'm on the subject. We want:

Warrior
-to come equipped with multiple capped weapons for SC options.
-willingness to take one for the team (Shield Break)
-gear to tank
-reason to tank some of the time. But also DD often. And incentive to enjoy both roles.

You can come with multiple capped weapons for SC option.
You can take one for the team.
You do have tanking gear.
You do have a reason to tank, its NEEDED sometimes.

Red Mage
-reason to enfeeble.
-reason to nuke occasionally?
-reason to melee occasionally?
-incentive to main heal sometimes, without it becoming their full time job.

Stop going to camps where you can't.
Stop going to camps where you can't.
Build your own PTs. Problem solved.
Stop taking main healer invites. You have Refresh, Haste and Dispel as your calling cards, it tends to get you what you want. Problem solved.

Blue Mage
-reason to do everything their job has to offer instead of DD spell spam. Method to keep them from adopting full time support role.

How does SE create a "method" to prevent these things? SE cannot stop humans from taking the path of least resistance. They designed these elements into the job, yet you don't have the balls to tell the BLUs you invite what you need from them?

If you need them to help cure, I've met very few that object to that, they'll gladly set the spell, just ask. That's not asking them to become a cure bot, that's asking them to spot the mages as needed. Ask them to get Sanction, ask them to set Auto-Refresh, hell just know stuff about BLU so they can't bullshit you.

Noticing a trend? A method for "hybrid" jobs to stay hybrids. Something that prevents the player base from doing what humans naturally do -- value specialization. Red Mage: the Christopher Walken of mages.

There is no such "method."

SE can't do anything about players that are too nice to tell other players what they need from them. I, on the other hand, will kick you if you're not bringing what I need to a PT, Mission or whatever. I have sent people away because I felt they were not prepared or ready.

I'm here to have fun, but what I'm not here to do is waste my time pandering to your personal wants and needs. If you want EXP, if you want mission wins, if you want access to all those nifty endgame zones and widgets there's a way to get there, but its not by playing favorites and meeting all your own personal needs 100% of the time.

If you are a versatile job and opt not to be versatile, that's your own damn fault and you have no right to complain about it. Taskmage still enfeebles, nukes and such in his PTs, even if he does heal a bit. I can't remember a level of RDM where I didn't attend to every last one of my mage duties. I was as familiar with Regens as I was with my nukes. I don't see ANY PTs telling a RDM to not nuke.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

If you always expect to play any way you want, you don't fit in this game's leveling community.

The solution is to either solo or make small groups, which would allow you to gain experience points the way you'd like. Or, just to get experience points, period, if you're the flexible sort fed up with all the "I'm not a ___ monkey/bot!" protests.

With the updated Signet or the Sanction Refresh, Adventuring Fellows, knowledge about all the different solo and small group techniques (DRG/mage healer, /BST's Charm parity with BST, Utsusemi to reduce healing need, using the likes of FFXI-Atlas to find monsters in right level ranges, etc.), it's actually quite easy to level without a full group these days.

* * *

I wish there's good support within the game which allow small group exp'ing but at the same time can advertise that they would like to invite more people or be invited to join others. We have a "person seeking party" flag, but perhaps there should be a "party seeking more member" flag as well, so people looking swell the ranks of small groups know who to talk to.

/sea all inv 25-28 << Looks for players who set a "looking for party" flag.
/seal all rec 25-28 << Looks for leaders who set a "looking for members" flag.

I think I'm asking for S-E's help a party grow organically here... That may also counter the tendency to strictly define roles for each job, since party put together that way have to adapt its operation with every new member, and do so over time. This wouldn't work very well without versatile gears, though. For example, I currently loath to cast offensive spells or even cures on my RDM without the elemental staves, but if some combination of sword and/or shield can give 75% of the benefit from the staves and let me contribute usable melee damage, I just may be tempted to move out of the back line. Without such sword and shield, though, I would instead continue to carry my staves, and leave all my melee gears with my Moogle when I go partying.

Most zones aren't terribly friendly to the idea of an organically growing party, either; targets which would be good for a duo of a certain level would give sub-par experience points in full party, but the area usually doesn't have any targets good for group of six, nor the neighboring zones. Forcing an evacuation back to Jeuno/White Gate for transportation or an abrupt teleport followed by a long Chocobo ride is not terribly conducive to a smoothly growing a group from a two-man operation to a six-people full party.

If we OP teleport can be opened up a bit more, it may help. Add Outpost-to-Outpost warping, and let non-controlling nation's citizens use them for additional cost (either for more Gil, or turn in Conquest Points to the controlling nation in exchange). I don't think it'd ruin the game if Outposts not under Beastmen control have Chocobo rentals, either.

Additing quests to open up those kind of new functionalities can be really cool, too, and gives S-E an opportunity to fill out the history of each outpost.


* * *

I really like the idea of having to "pay" Conquest Points to controlling nation for services at Outposts--it makes Outposts more usable to everyone, elevate the usefulness of Conquest Points, and make the Conquest rivalry system a little personal--your precious CP is going to help the rival's chance of winning Conquest next week, when you and your fellow citizens didn't manage to secure the zone last week!

[Malacite]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Yes yes it's been stated and agreed upon to death that SMN needs a complete overhaul. I have a few very good SCH-inspired ideas, but that's not for this thread.

[Karinya]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Don't forget
Summoner
-reason to invite to a party without /whm

Now that I don't necessarily agree with (unless you're just saying "Another subjob that provides at least as much benefit as /whm does", which wouldn't suck).

I'd say
--reason for a party to want you to use bloodpacts often (although not necessarily *DD* bloodpacts specifically; fixing some of the pathetic excuses for enhancing bloodpacts would be fine with me too).

But I think it's not unreasonable to use some subjob spells too, and if you're going to do that, /whm is the most beneficial subjob to use for that. It has the most useful spells of any mage sub (and the competing benefits of /blm and /rdm, conserve mp and fast cast, don't apply to SMN; it would be interesting if conserve mp could reduce the cost of bloodpacts and fast cast could reduce BP recast, but atm they can't).

If you're not going to do anything but damage, you'd be no better than a ranger who can't pull and runs out of MP. What good is that? Dealing damage from a distance is only godly in kited HNM fights. In exp, it's the ability to turn your MP to other uses as the situation demands that makes BLMs worth inviting at all. The same would apply to a DD-only SMN, which is why nobody wants one (except a few frustrated SMNs with very mistaken ideas about what their invite rate would be as a non-healing SMN). Don't ask for your own job to be made useless to parties; you really won't like the results.