Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

So, yes, nerfing /WHM is a very bad idea. SMN have suffered enough already, let's not take their parties away, too.

When people say, "Nerf /WHM," they are 99% of the time implying a direct huge buff to SMN itself. That way, people will actually be inviting the SMN, not the /WHM.

What I think will help SMN hugely would be to put each Blood Pact on a seperate timer, like every other spell in the game. And have it's power increase with skill, not "skill over cap" . . . you know, like every other spell in the game.

(Even White Mage spells increase with skill; they just hit the soft cap much, much faster.)

[Saren]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Still learning about blu but I did know about the crowd control/dispel/enfeebling aspects already, was just under the impression that the spells are quite heavily dependant on TP for efficacy. The built in dispel is very nice and Diamond hide is nice if late. I do take your points so thanks :)

[Ziero]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Something has to happen, whether the def/general strength of all mobs is adjusted or what but there should be no reason why all zones should not be as viable as others at a given level. I should be able to go to the Mire or Lufaise Meadows or somewhere in a Wings zone and be able to get comparable EXP/hour with good players.

The biggest problem is that ALL ToAU zones instantly give better Exp per hour then any zone in the game the minute you activate Sanction. THAT is what's making them Weak ToAU mobs better exp then all the older T-VT targets. People get more bang for their buck with zero downside. Combine Sanctions bonus EXP and auto-refresh with high repops and high quantities of mobs and you have an optimum leveling environment for the vast majority of the games job classes.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

The thing that worries me about blu main healing if /whm is heavily nerfed is that, as you said, they don't really seem to have much in the way of a mid range cure spell to help things run more smoothly. Sure they can take a few hits but you can't rest if you are being hit and I can't see blu spells being so efficient (especially as they aren't able to give the party as much in the way of damage mitigation buffs, no higher regens, no flash) that they will offset the need to get as much rest as possible to maintain mp.

Well, nothing BLU has can actually replace Regen, but, BLU can:
1. Enfeeble to lower damage taken; e.g. Sprout Smack (Slow 15%), Filamented Hold (Slow 25%), Sandspin (acc down), Head Butt (stun), Chaotic Eye (silence), Terro Touch (Atk down)
2. Enfeeble to quicken fights, which saves cure MP per battle used: e.g. Wild Oats (VIT down), Frightful Roar (Def down), a number of different poison spells.
3. Debuff by removing monster's buffs; e.g. Blank Gaze, Geist Wall.
4. Buff party members to take less damage; e.g. Diamond Hide.
5. Sleep links or adds; e.g. Sheep Song (light based), Soporific (dark based), Pinecone Bomb (Um... no idea about element).


With Healing Breeze, Wild Carrot, and Magic Fruit, BLU/WHM looks like a decent healer with impressive support capability to me.

[Mhurron]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Something has to happen, whether the def/general strength of all mobs is adjusted or what but there should be no reason why all zones should not be as viable as others at a given level. I should be able to go to the Mire or Lufaise Meadows or somewhere in a Wings zone and be able to get comparable EXP/hour with good players.

[Saren]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

[quote=IfritnoItazura;738816]It'll hurt exp'ing for SMN more than anyone else.

SMN will become the new BLM--strictly for soloing, while dreaming about the good old days when you were wanted by parties. Except SMN was never really wanted by parties, just tolerated.[quote]

Precisely. I am really looking forward to seeing what Scholar will do for whm and blm but smn still feels very left out in the cold when it comes to sub job choices. I would love to see smn tweaked so that it's bloodpacts were more useful in exp, the really joke bad buffs have already been mentioned and the accuracy problems etc but as someone who has played some smn I would rather not lose the only subjob (blu could probably work similarly) that gives me something useful to do between bloodpacts and lets me fill in another role in a party if i have to.

Hell even when I have been smn in a party with a different main healer, I can throw out a cure or status cure to let them keep resting when they are low on mp, take over for a minute while they are casting something that takes several seconds (a regen, reraise, protectra/shellra). Having a mage with /whm in a party is a good idea in the same way that having a DD who can take a couple of hits for the tank just in case is a good idea.

I don't think so, at least not over the "Cure" line of spells. With with Healing Breeze and Wild Carrot, BLU/WHM becomes a sufficient healer on its own at Lv.30. Granted it won't function as smoothly without full strength Cure II and Cure I, since Wild Carrot is closer to Cure III and would disrupt tanking at that level, but BLU can take a few hits anyway, and BLU curing spells have better MP efficiency than the Cures.

The thing that worries me about blu main healing if /whm is heavily nerfed is that, as you said, they don't really seem to have much in the way of a mid range cure spell to help things run more smoothly. Sure they can take a few hits but you can't rest if you are being hit and I can't see blu spells being so efficient (especially as they aren't able to give the party as much in the way of damage mitigation buffs, no higher regens, no flash) that they will offset the need to get as much rest as possible to maintain mp.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Don't know about exp'ing on IT++, but if VT+ to IT- chain 5 start to give off exp/hour better than T-VT chaining 12, you can bet all the (I-forgot-the-name) plug-in users on Windower will start to notice right away.

It should pretty easy to manipulate players into going after higher level monsters--just nudge the exp per kill numbers a bit, and make killing T's and low VT's not worthwhile. (Then, watch the hate (e-)mail pour in over "exp nerf".)

[Lmnop]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

I'm of the mindset that if a SMN's only real job was to use both BPs/minute and just rest in between, they'd still be able to back up heal. They'd end up playing very similarly to BLMs in the "days of old" -- sit for a while, stand up and do something impressive, chill. Be ready with -na's and back up cures. If any of you ever got to witness a good blm/whm in the 3 mage/3 melee days, you'd understand why blm/anything else was so shunned. My friend always beat the whms on status cures. Why? Nothing better to do. :3

'Bbq, the people I typically exp with know me too well. I typically provoke incoming mobs while the main tank's voke is still down from the one we're currently fighting. I also run with a Corsair a lot instead of a Bard. And you know that your Light Shot cannot compete with your Horde Lullaby. With less sleeping power, the ability to handle adds increases in importance. Shadows deliver. I also "main tank" a lot. I think I could fill this role as war/sam, and I'm slowly building the trust. But as is, I'm already a massive mp sink as war/nin main tanking. But the point is, we know my War/nin works very well. They trust me to do a lot that a lot of Warriors don't do. Most warriors don't even seem to have a provoke macro. I'm happy with my friends, but I don't have know enough people like me or Armando clones to really let loose with the things I'd like to see in action.

Not S-E's fault that I don't feel like wasting 6 of my 10 hours/week just looking for people crazy enough to waste their time with me? Hmm, sure. Ok. But there's a lot they could do to help me out.

[Mhurron]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

If IT++ mobs are the EXP trend again, RDM will be more focused on enfeebling, PLD tanking will become more relevant again, WHM would probably get their healer spot back, etc.

No, they just won't get used. If ToAU zones are easier, they will continue to be 'The Place' to get EXP/Merits. Wings zones will only be used if the mobs are even easier to get exp from or they buff up the mobs in ToAU zones to a more realistic level.

[Ziero]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

I hope WotG will weaken the Empire. With players too busy Campaigning or leveling their DNC to show up and defend the candy, it may fall into beastman hands more than once a month, and if that happens, sanction loses its bonuses *and* you can't warp to staging points. (IIRC.) Which obviously is going to have a big effect on the exp situation. Heck, just taking some players out of merit camps will let the beastman armies build up faster (I think) resulting in more common attacks, and if people are too busy playing with WotG content to go rescue generals in between attacks... Let alone if WotG gives people a good reason to set their homepoint somewhere other than Whitegate; the Empire is still a pain in the ass to get to if it isn't your homepoint (IIRC, the *best* way is to use your once-every-24-hours olduum ring, if you've bothered to quest it, and then use a chocobo whistle, if you've raised at least one chocobo to maturity, and ride from there to town. Everything else is worse, including if you don't qualify for that method or have already used it in the past 24 hours.)

1) As said before, you can Warp to Whitegate from any city after a simple quest many people did before the ToAU expansion even hit.

2) You do not need the Ass Candy to use ruinic portals

3) There is a Choco lady by the Olduum spot you warp to, just like there's one by the Yhoat and Altep tele crystals.

And my guess, is that they'll re-adjust and slow down Besiege build ups once the new expansion hit so that the Ass Candy isn't stolen every two minutes.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

I honestly think that heavily reducing the power of /whm cures so that the only reason to sub whm is mp and status cures is just going to harm exp in general.

It'll hurt exp'ing for SMN more than anyone else.

SMN will become the new BLM--strictly for soloing, while dreaming about the good old days when you were wanted by parties. Except SMN was never really wanted by parties, just tolerated.

I've never tried blu but I am guessing that heavily nerfed cures might main main heal blu a lot lot tougher.

I don't think so, at least not over the "Cure" line of spells. With with Healing Breeze and Wild Carrot, BLU/WHM becomes a sufficient healer on its own at Lv.30. Granted it won't function as smoothly without full strength Cure II and Cure I, since Wild Carrot is closer to Cure III and would disrupt tanking at that level, but BLU can take a few hits anyway, and BLU curing spells have better MP efficiency than the Cures.

Heavily nerfing -na spells or hiking level requirements for them, however, would severely cripple all current /WHM healers, possibly even RDM. Utsusemi defense is useless against Imps without a constant supply of Silena, after all, unless everyone starts carrying 6+ stacks of Echo Drops.

So, yes, nerfing /WHM is a very bad idea. SMN have suffered enough already, let's not take their parties away, too.

[Saren]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

the Empire is still a pain in the ass to get to if it isn't your homepoint (IIRC, the *best* way is to use your once-every-24-hours olduum ring, if you've bothered to quest it, and then use a chocobo whistle, if you've raised at least one chocobo to maturity, and ride from there to town. Everything else is worse, including if you don't qualify for that method or have already used it in the past 24 hours.)

Call of the wildcat quests, if you have done them, make getting to Whitegate fantastically easy now. The update for the warp was about 2 months ago now I think.

I would like to see healing skill more relevant but I don't think that /whm should be heavily nerfed. WHM is the only job in the whole game with status removal spells. Status effects like attack down or accuracy down are not fixable with items and seriously harm melee performance and whm or /whm are the only combinations that can remove those effects.

I honestly think that heavily reducing the power of /whm cures so that the only reason to sub whm is mp and status cures is just going to harm exp in general. I've never tried blu but I am guessing that heavily nerfed cures might main main heal blu a lot lot tougher. Even considering blm and smn being used in parties as their main jobs and not mp/whm or non main heal rdms the occasional cures and/or status removals that non main heal rdms and good /whm blms and smns throw out really help keep chains going.


Edit: Sorry for the repeat information I was eating lunch while I posted so was writing it for a long time

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Why the cool kids don't set HP in Whitegate anymore

Let alone if WotG gives people a good reason to set their homepoint somewhere other than Whitegate; the Empire is still a pain in the ass to get to if it isn't your homepoint (IIRC, the *best* way is to use your once-every-24-hours olduum ring, if you've bothered to quest it, and then use a chocobo whistle, if you've raised at least one chocobo to maturity, and ride from there to town. Everything else is worse, including if you don't qualify for that method or have already used it in the past 24 hours.)

That' a silly way to get around.

Set home point at home--home nation, that is. Then, pay 300 Gil to use the Warp NPC at home to get to Aht Urhgan Whitegate if that's where you want to go, or Outpost Teleports if you're heading out to Conquest zones. The worse case scenario is to having to go to Aht Urhgan to catch a tele-texi, which isn't all that bad.

Want to go to Jeuno? Bust out the Tavnazian Ring if you just need to use the Auction House, or use one of the Warp NPCs in Aht Urghan to go Jeuno.

Windurst (and the other, lesser nations) are the new Jeuno, my friend, without the unwashed masses to lag you into POL errors.

I hope WotG will weaken the Empire. With players too busy Campaigning or leveling their DNC to show up and defend the candy, it may fall into beastman hands more than once a month, and if that happens, sanction loses its bonuses *and* you can't warp to staging points. (IIRC.) Which obviously is going to have a big effect on the exp situation. Heck, just taking some players out of merit camps will let the beastman armies build up faster (I think) resulting in more common attacks, and if people are too busy playing with WotG content to go rescue generals in between attacks...

IIRC, the reason why S-E gave such a bonus to Sanction was to attract people to Aht Urhgan, fearing that people may be too glued to the old regions for exp'ing. (Thanks to all the people who roundly ignored CoP areas.) Though the company didn't say it, that also made financial sense; you have to buy the expansion to get to the new area, so it's good business sense to make the new area more attractive than the old area.

So, we can probably count on S-E scheming to get people out of Aht Urhgan, and move them into the new area, one way or another.

We don't know what other balance changes SE may have in mind; they never talk about that stuff until they spring it on us. (With some good reasons, I admit.)

Well, I think they want to rebalance the jobs (again).

The company kept promising major job re-balancing, and we keep lamenting it wasn't happening, or not happening fast enough--until the two-handed update. Now I'm throwing hissy fits at that "improvement" while at a significant portion the population probably wish people like me would just shut up and leave their good damage fast killing parties alone.

I look forward to the next balance change with dread at least equal to anticipation. x_x;

[Karinya]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

I hope WotG will weaken the Empire. With players too busy Campaigning or leveling their DNC to show up and defend the candy, it may fall into beastman hands more than once a month, and if that happens, sanction loses its bonuses *and* you can't warp to staging points. (IIRC.) Which obviously is going to have a big effect on the exp situation. Heck, just taking some players out of merit camps will let the beastman armies build up faster (I think) resulting in more common attacks, and if people are too busy playing with WotG content to go rescue generals in between attacks... Let alone if WotG gives people a good reason to set their homepoint somewhere other than Whitegate; the Empire is still a pain in the ass to get to if it isn't your homepoint (IIRC, the *best* way is to use your once-every-24-hours olduum ring, if you've bothered to quest it, and then use a chocobo whistle, if you've raised at least one chocobo to maturity, and ride from there to town. Everything else is worse, including if you don't qualify for that method or have already used it in the past 24 hours.)

We don't know what other balance changes SE may have in mind; they never talk about that stuff until they spring it on us. (With some good reasons, I admit.)

Don't go putting words in my mouth.

Sorry. The second half of that post was intended to be a generic "you" for all the people who want /WHM nerfed (don't you think we have enough of a healer shortage without nerfing the ones there are?) and jobs other than WHM to not "have" to heal. It was unclear that it wasn't about you personally, though. My bad.

[Malacite]

Re: Can players' interests and needs be balanced?

Well, the new "signet" is supposed to remove exp penalty from death (At least for Campaign anyway according to that Osaka report)

Also, there are imps in Castle Zvahl now in Wings (Further proof of Odin's influence ^^) so I'm curious how WotG imps will play out vs ToAU.