Abyssea Experiences

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Abyssea Experiences

You make it sound as if Ifritnoitazura is just out to kick anybody that doesn't have E Body, Exalibur, Black Belt, at least 20% Haste, 3 different pieces of Refresh gear, or Kraken Club.

Excuse me? I didn't quote him AND I stated...

Ya I just get sick hearing in the ls about shit like this.

Then I gave an example specific to my ls and my experiences. I didn't make him sound like anything, I just stated something that I disliked. If other people choose to treat others that way, that's their choice. Just as it's my choice to choose not to party with people like that.

[Ketaru]

Re: Abyssea Experiences

On the other hand, you followed directly from Karinya's post that is in reference to Ifritnoitazura thinking that people should be booted until 30 seconds a kill can be achieved. You said yourself, you are talking about people who "penalize people who don't have the best equips, don't have as many merits...fuck parsers and people that discriminate against good players when they use them." Cause that last part sounds exactly like Ifritnoitazura's suggestion for Abyssea.

How about don't fuck parsers and tell people to do what they were invited for? No need to check either because their being AFK all the time will do it to them. The parsers won't tell you who is going AFK or who is poorly geared. The parser is just telling you who is plain not contributing to the group effort.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Abyssea Experiences

I don't know about you, but I think seeing people booted because the leader didn't like their parse stats wouldn't be good for my morale. Even if I wasn't there as a DPS I'd be wondering if I was next.

Are you sure? Would booting useless people really be bad for morale?

Think back to exp and merit pickup parties. Say, RDM and WHM in mid level party, and the RDM isn't enfeebling (not even a Dia II), not curing, not casting Refresh on the WHM, and not casting Haste on anyone. Are you happy? Or would you prefer if that RDM is replaced by someone more useful?

How about the DD with under 200 damage WS in a merit party? And missing half of his swings? Want someone better?

Generally speaking, people who contribute want others in party/alliance to contribute, too. Knowing off the bat that the leader won't tolerate leeches (and I don't mean the box opener) is knowing from the start that one is getting a group which will likely reward his efforts by getting him decent exp/hr.

But especially if I was a DPS in a party without BRD or COR support, because the people with that support are going to outparse me without hardly trying... parsers have a lot of limitations.

Parser has limitations, but no BRD or COR--not even BRD AND COR together--can do all that much with a DD who has base hit rate under 40%. (Yes, I've seen that.)

If everyone is performing reasonably well, you will kill stuff under 30 secs. As I said, all I wanted to do is to reach that mark by replacing dead weight with people who'd actually contribute; not keep whetting down the DDs until everyone is whimpering in fear. lol.

Perhaps a bit of number dumping can convince you that there may be a need for this in some alliances. Here's one without COR or BRD:

Player--------------Total-DPS---M.Acc-%---WS.Avg--Notes-------------------------------------------------------------
xxxxxxxxx-MNK/WAR-------26.65---70.76-%---436.99--------------------------------------------------------------------
xxxxx-SAM/???-----------24.62---67.49-%---593.35--Had-Ageha;-used-1-time.-------------------------------------------
Itazura-PLD/NIN---------23.56---92.61-%---456.54--Dual-Wield;-Vorpal-Blade-build------------------------------------
xxxxxx-DRG/SAM----------20.42---83.33-%---437.29--Had-Sonic-Thrust;-mostly-used-Penta-Thrust------------------------
xxxxxxx-DRG/WAR---------17.65---85.00-%---345.22--Joined-at-Lv.74---------------------------------------------------
xxxxxx-MNK/WAR----------15.19---51.93-%---420.07--Joined-at-Lv.75---------------------------------------------------
xxxxx-DRG/SAM-----------13.86---88.24-%---439.50--Wheeling-Thrust-only----------------------------------------------
xxxxxx-MMK/WAR----------13.40---69.58-%---355.31--Lv71-or-72?--Supposedly?------------------------------------------
xxxxxx-PLD/WAR----------12.92---72.00-%---233.27--Atonement-only----------------------------------------------------
xxxxx-WHM/NIN------------8.72---75.08-%---131.97--About-half-Hexa-Strike,-half-Mystic-Boon--------------------------
xxxxxx-PLD/WAR-----------7.11---52.44-%---305.24--Has-Saguine-Blade;-used-that-more-than-half-of-the-time.----------
xxxxxxxx-DNC/???---------6.85---72.08-%---229.89--Spent-most-of-his-TP-curing-himself,-since-he-liked-to-solo...----
xxxxxx-BLU/???-----------5.83---44.74-%---110.50--Joined-shortly-before-I-left;-maybe-was-still-warming-up?---------
xxxxx-THF/NIN------------5.42---55.04-%---252.25--98%-Dancing-Edge.-------------------------------------------------
xxxxxx-PLD/WAR-----------2.27---28.15-%----38.00--Vorpal-Blade.--Full-timed-Adaman-Cuirass/Cuisses;-Macuahuitl-(+1?)
Ember--------------------4.22---68.66-%
Firewing-----------------2.77---58.50-%
Max----------------------3.30---57.47-%
Garuda------------------35.30---65.22-%


0. Pickup group; when I was invited, there were already PLD/WAR x2 in alliance.
1. Main job and SJ inferred from WS's, JAs, and spells used. I don't know the level of most people; didn't take screenshot, but obviously those who used 300 skill WS's were closer to 80 than 70.


Just looking at the melee accuracy, I'd be very tempted to get rid of the THF and the BLU on the bottom. Not to mention the turtle PLD/WAR, especially since he was barely using Provoke, Flash, or Cure.

It might be worth bringing half a dozen pizzas and offering them to people who seem to need them, though. They're pretty cheap, aren't they? And they last 3 hours, so by the time you've identified who needs them, one pizza should pretty much last them the rest of the party unless they die.

Inventory issues aside, I don't think pizza would help that THF with 55.04% hit rate all that much, and would be waste of a good food on the PLD with 38 damage Vorpal Blade--he did one WS the entire time he was there. lol.

Frequent AFK or d/c are another matter, of course. But kicking people who are trying but just don't have as good gear or are only 75/76... idk, I'd expect that to piss off as many people as it impressed.

Does 55.04% hit rate really qualifies as 'trying'? I've seen even worse in other alliances; there's got to be a cut off somewhere.

[Karinya]

Re: Abyssea Experiences

You make it sound as if Ifritnoitazura is just out to kick anybody that doesn't have E Body, Exalibur, Black Belt, at least 20% Haste, 3 different pieces of Refresh gear, or Kraken Club.

So did Itaz. How else do you read "keep replacing the melees with the lowest accuracy or DPS"? If the standard is defined by people who do have uber gear, then the ones that don't are going to be the ones that don't measure up by the parser. (Assuming parity of support jobs, but although I'm pretty sure Itaz knows that someone in a BRD party and someone in a non-BRD party can't have their DPS compared directly, there's probably someone reading that post who won't think of it and will keep kicking the people in the non-BRD party for their inferior DPS.)

I dunno, maybe Itaz's server has a lot of people who did 37-75 in East Ron[S] and have the weapon skill to prove it, but it looked to me more like "keep kicking until you have an alliance of haijins".

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Abyssea Experiences

On the other hand, you followed directly from Karinya's post that is in reference to Ifritnoitazura thinking that people should be booted until 30 seconds a kill can be achieved. You said yourself, you are talking about people who "penalize people who don't have the best equips, don't have as many merits...fuck parsers and people that discriminate against good players when they use them." Cause that last part sounds exactly like Ifritnoitazura's suggestion for Abyssea.

How about don't fuck parsers and tell people to do what they were invited for? No need to check either because their being AFK all the time will do it to them. The parsers won't tell you who is going AFK or who is poorly geared. The parser is just telling you who is plain not contributing to the group effort.

And again...

I just stated something that I disliked. If other people choose to treat others that way, that's their choice. Just as it's my choice to choose not to party with people like that.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Abyssea Experiences

Perhaps a bit of number dumping can convince you

This is your primary flaw in thinking. Srsly.

[Karinya]

Re: Abyssea Experiences

My post and Itaz's went up at the same time, so here's some reactions... Wow, 4 PLD? And only one using a DD build?

The main thing that stands out to me is the huge number of PLD, honestly. Clearly you know how to make DD PLD work pretty darn well, but the majority don't (or don't have the gear, I admit to being curious what setup lets you outdamage several DRGs and MNKs), and it shows here.

Another interesting thing is that Garuda apparently outdamaged everyone... unless there were 2+ SMN using Garuda and the parser combined their damage.

I'm impressed by the acc numbers from the DRGs (especially with one joining at 74), but then, we do have acc bonus, and 2/3 had Hasso as well. :D

If the THF/NIN wasn't pulling or popping chests he might have gotten more mileage out of a more DD-ish sub, but sadly that seems like a lost art for THFs these days. The dynamics of abyssea undercut THF DD pretty bad, though (try lining up a SA or TA in there). Dagger weaponskills suck without SA and/or TA, on top of the fact that daggers are not so great to begin with.

And from a DD perspective, DNC is like a THF with lower skill that can't *ever* get off a SA or TA - either you're getting them for support/healing functions as well as damage, or don't bother. (That one possibly should have been kicked, but for his behavior, not just low DPS. I do support kicking people whose obvious stupidity is hindering the functioning of the alliance, if they refuse to correct their behavior when asked to do so.)

BLU is apparently just not as much of a melee as people think it is. Is this parse counting his spell damage? Did he have Battery Charge or some other source of refresh? Most sword WS are pretty bad too, as the parse shows.

I'd suspect the low acc people were skilling up because they did 55-75 at the leypoint or something, but that doesn't explain the guy with Sanguine Blade and ~50% hit rate -- he has to be fairly high level, and skilled up too. And you probably would have mentioned if he was fighting in full Koenig. XD

Overall, I sort of see your point, but I don't think it's an accident that most of the one-handers are coming up at the bottom of the chart, either.

P.S. You may not have had BRD or COR, but you had DNC and BLU -- were they keeping up eva or def debuffs? That would put a dent in their personal damage but improve everyone else's, in a way a parser can't really account for. But not everyone knows the power of those types of abilities or uses them to full effectiveness.

[Ketaru]

Re: Abyssea Experiences

And again...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGrandMom
I just stated something that I disliked. If other people choose to treat others that way, that's their choice. Just as it's my choice to choose not to party with people like that.

It's your opinion and so I cannot post that I disagree with you? I can accept that you want to "fuck parsers and penalizing players blah blah." I can also post that I think you're wrong. But go ahead and keep and quoting this over and over until you forget this is a supposed to be a place for discussion.

I don't like it that BSTs wear full CHR and don't call pets to their Abyssea groups. It is my choice not to party with them. Doesn't change the fact that some other group is inviting them and dragging my job's name through the mud somewhere else. It is in my every right to say I hate them and I hope party's have the sense to give them the boot the size of Italy.

[Vyuru]

Re: Abyssea Experiences

BLU is apparently just not as much of a melee as people think it is. Is this parse counting his spell damage? Did he have Battery Charge or some other source of refresh? Most sword WS are pretty bad too, as the parse shows.

I suspect it has more to do with gear and food eaten. I see alot of Blu in poor TP gear at 75+, but totally awesome spell casting gear. Whereas I have really good TP gear (needs work though) and what I'd call "average" spell casting gear.

Speaking for myself as Blu in Abyssea, I have far higher than 44.74% accuracy on mobs, and my Vorpal Blades do somewhere in the 400-600 range I think, sometimes higher sometimes lower.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Abyssea Experiences

To clarify, my idea is actually to keep replacing AFKers and other non-performers until alliance can kill in 30 seconds on average. (Some leader may choose to take it to 25 seconds, or eve 20 seconds, but I think that's too demanding--decently geared DDs using food should be able bring down targets in 30 seconds--no relic weapon or super equipment needed.)

The easiest non-performers to spot are those melee DDs with low parser output, but should use DPS and melee accuracy instead of total damage because people going in and out of the alliance skew the total damage in favor of those who were there longer.

* * *

Wow, 4 PLD? And only one using a DD build? The main thing that stands out to me is the huge number of PLD, honestly.

Started at two, and when I joined, became three. Got another one later. (Being an NA group, people do come and go a bit.)

Actually, did you noticed two of the PLD/WAR out DPS'ed the THF? (One by more than 100% lol.) I'd get rid of the THF before those two.

As for my gears:

TP:
Organics/Joyeuse/Lamian kaman (I think? Don't have anything range/ammo, DD wise)
Askar/PCC/Brutal/Suppanomimi
Haubergeon +1/Homam/Ecphoria/Blood Ring
Amemet +1/Swift/Homam/Aurum

WS (Vorpal Blade):
Optical Hat
Hectatomb Mittens
Askar Dirs
Potent Belt
Perle Solerets

Food:
Marinara Pizza +1

Not a bad setup, but not exactly amazing gear in every slot. I should also say that I have 4 Sword Merits, but that's not exactly uncommon for PLDs.

Another interesting thing is that Garuda apparently outdamaged everyone... unless there were 2+ SMN using Garuda and the parser combined their damage.

Heh. I meant to delete Garuda once I decided not to break out melee DoT from total DoT, but forgot to do that

Originally, wanted to show that Garuda melee'ed better than some of our DDs. Total DPS isn't useful for comparing SMN to melee, because they often usually summon avatar, BP, then dismiss avatar, spiking the DPS.

(Melee to melee comparison can be fair, as well as you understand what DPS measures and the limitation with that metric. I don't consider it useful for nuker to nuker, or SMN to SMN comparisons.)

I'm impressed by the acc numbers from the DRGs (especially with one joining at 74), but then, we do have acc bonus, and 2/3 had Hasso as well. :D

*shrug* It's no secret I always liked pet jobs, even though I haven't leveled them.

If the THF/NIN wasn't pulling or popping chests he might have gotten more mileage out of a more DD-ish sub, but sadly that seems like a lost art for THFs these days.

No, that's not true; this is where DPS figure shows its worth.

Total DPS only counts the time you are engaged, so even if a THF only engages 10 seconds every two fight, after a few hours of that, DPS becomes a good indicator of that THF's capability. Using Total DPS, you can compare a melee who was around for 300 fights with another who was only around for 150 fights.

That particular THF was meleeing the critter he pulled almost every time, so the DPS posted for him is a solid indicator of his not-so-solid damage capability. (i.e. The WHM/NIN can easily beat him.)

The dynamics of abyssea undercut THF DD pretty bad, though (try lining up a SA or TA in there). Dagger weaponskills suck without SA and/or TA, on top of the fact that daggers are not so great to begin with.

We had two PLDs who were flashing and provoking, and I think I was the only person who liked to WS at the start of the fight. Some SA's should still be possible, and TA onto the blue-armor PLD would've been great. (I bagged on the THF, but that PLD really was the most useless member.)

And from a DD perspective, DNC is like a THF with lower skill that can't *ever* get off a SA or TA - either you're getting them for support/healing functions as well as damage, or don't bother. (That one possibly should have been kicked, but for his behavior, not just low DPS. I do support kicking people whose obvious stupidity is hindering the functioning of the alliance, if they refuse to correct their behavior when asked to do so.)

I included DNC mostly to show how bad the THF and BLU were--not that DNC was an shining example of what the job is capable of except "Not dying very fast."

BLU is apparently just not as much of a melee as people think it is. Is this parse counting his spell damage? Did he have Battery Charge or some other source of refresh? Most sword WS are pretty bad too, as the parse shows.

The Total DPS figures accounts for all forms of direct damage (but not slip damage like poison effect). Not sure if he was getting Refresh.

I'd suspect the low acc people were skilling up because they did 55-75 at the leypoint or something, but that doesn't explain the guy with Sanguine Blade and ~50% hit rate -- he has to be fairly high level, and skilled up too. And you probably would have mentioned if he was fighting in full Koenig. XD

Didn't check gear, but saw Homam something or other. Except for the blue-armored one, think the PLDs all had Homam hands/legs?

Overall, I sort of see your point, but I don't think it's an accident that most of the one-handers are coming up at the bottom of the chart, either.

The counter point would be that if everyone just take care of accuracy, have reasonable TP/WS set, and get the Cruor buffs, we would've been killing fast enough that I wouldn't be thinking of replacing anyone if I was the leader.

P.S. You may not have had BRD or COR, but you had DNC and BLU -- were they keeping up eva or def debuffs? That would put a dent in their personal damage but improve everyone else's, in a way a parser can't really account for. But not everyone knows the power of those types of abilities or uses them to full effectiveness.

I lied when I said DNC was soloing--most of the time, he was duo'ing with the THF on the newly pulled critter, after the THF started pulling. (He was soloing when he pulled.) Not that he was using Haste Samba anyway. He did used steps, but since he'd disengage and switch mob as soon as one of the PLDs use Provoke, I doubt the melees DDs got much out of his steps. No one else except maybe the THF benefited from his Samba, that for sure.

BLU had one Seedspray during the 13 fights (he came just before I left). No self haste; probably wasn't high enough level for that spell, yet. (I really should've screenshot the alliance. lol. It's a pain estimating levels from WS and JAs and spells...)

* * *

This is your primary flaw in thinking. Srsly.

Because we're all incapable of looking at the performance numbers and decide whether what I recommend has any merit for at least that alliance?

Or because it's not polite to say a particular THF is lousy on the DD front, if on average he did less than 1/3 of output of my PLD, for every second engaged? Or because I should make assertions without ever revealing what data lead to to any particular thought?

Keep in mind I've not said the numbers proved anything (except maybe that alliance had some rather weak DDs). It's are just data for consideration, really, and I don't think I've ever pretended otherwise.

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: Abyssea Experiences

You have way too much time on your hands.

[Karinya]

Re: Abyssea Experiences

As for my gears:

TP:
Organics/Joyeuse/Lamian kaman (I think? Don't have anything range/ammo, DD wise)
Askar/PCC/Brutal/Suppanomimi
Haubergeon +1/Homam/Ecphoria/Blood Ring
Amemet +1/Swift/Homam/Aurum

WS (Vorpal Blade):
Optical Hat
Hectatomb Mittens
Askar Dirs
Potent Belt
Perle Solerets

Food:
Marinara Pizza +1

Not a bad setup, but not exactly amazing gear in every slot. I should also say that I have 4 Sword Merits, but that's not exactly uncommon for PLDs.

OK... I've been playing for 5+ years (although not always a lot of hours per week) and I have about half that stuff. (Lacking the ZNM stuff, homam hands and the big money pieces -- and swift belt, which I could probably get now if I wanted to take the time away from trials. On the other hand I do have soil gorget, for what that's worth.) And I wouldn't expect every member of an alliance to be up to *my* level of gear, let alone yours. ISTM that we may have seriously different points of view on what is "decent" gear and what is "super".

I'm lucky enough to have joyeuse, which is obviously a pretty crucial element of your build, but I wouldn't expect it of everyone (and of course the PLD/WARs don't have the option of a high damage main hand/joyeuse offhand build, short of going back to town to change SJ, anyway -- even if they have that high tier ZNM drop in the first place. Knowing back in town that they're going to want you to DD is a huge asset which there's no way of knowing whether the other PLD had that advantage or not.)

Total DPS only counts the time you are engaged, so even if a THF only engages 10 seconds every two fight, after a few hours of that, DPS becomes a good indicator of that THF's capability. Using Total DPS, you can compare a melee who was around for 300 fights with another who was only around for 150 fights.

That particular THF was meleeing the critter he pulled almost every time, so the DPS posted for him is a solid indicator of his not-so-solid damage capability. (i.e. The WHM/NIN can easily beat him.)

Hmm... A puller is sometimes "engaged" when they're running back to camp with a mob chasing them, but obviously doing 0 DPS during that time. Also, I sometimes unlock and run off to find the next mob without disengaging in order to avoid spending time on the disengage animation, particularly at the hectic pace of Abyssea (have only pulled there once). Can the parser compensate for those seconds where you are technically engaged but not actually swinging at anything? Or do they just get included in the denominator of the DPS calculation while contributing nothing to the numerator? It's obvious how that would skew the result.

More generally, I'd be reluctant to boot an Abyssea puller for poor DPS if they were doing a decent job pulling, regardless of whether they were engaging at all -- if you replaced them with someone who was a better DPS but worse puller, you'd be worse off overall, and you have plenty of other slots for DPS.

We had two PLDs who were flashing and provoking, and I think I was the only person who liked to WS at the start of the fight. Some SA's should still be possible, and TA onto the blue-armor PLD would've been great.

It's really hard to judge without video. Players and mobs move around, as you'll probably remember if you ever leveled THF yourself, and an Abyssea puller doesn't have much time in camp to line up a shot. (When I pulled there as COR, I had trouble just keeping up a couple of rolls with Luzaf's Ring sometimes. I don't like to think what my DPS would have shown.)

Can you TA onto a member of a different party in your alliance?

(I bagged on the THF, but that PLD really was the most useless member.)

I agree, but it's not necessarily his fault he came to a party with too many tanks. Obviously if he was asked in advance if he could DD and that was his idea of DD, he fails at it, but it's not what a PLD would expect to bring to a party if they're not warned and a lot of the good DD PLD gear is hard to get *and* not necessarily a priority for many PLD with more of a tanking orientation, so some don't have it at all and others might leave it in MH if they're not told in advance to bring it.

I probably wouldn't have invited him in the first place, but ISTM that inviting him, having him come out to the party, and then booting him is a much more extraordinary step that shouldn't be taken simply because a PLD showed up expecting to play like PLD normally do.

There are some PLD that take the job beyond the ordinary idea of it and I respect that (and try to do some of that myself), but ISTM that it's foolish to expect that of *every* PLD, particularly if it's not discussed with them before inviting them. Any random WAR, DRK, RNG, etc. would have showed up ready to DD and probably out-DD'd him by a factor of 3 or more, so why invite an unknown PLD to that slot at all?

[MrMageo]

Re: Abyssea Experiences

; ; I need Dusk+1 to get 20% Haste...think I have 18 or 19% right now.

Have you tried the following (should only need dusk +1 to cap out on haste)

W.T (5%)
Golird (4%)
DuskG (3%)
DuskL (2%)
Headlong (or better just an ex.) (3%)
ASA legs (3%)

Thats 20% with
Swift belt + (4-6%)
Dusk +1 x2 (7%)
Sentinel S. (1%)

with those items as well as the former items RDM caps haste =)

With the cost/ and ease of getting those items a RDM that chooses to melee should have no issue getting 20% the latter ones still require luck/gil/work to get. As far as ATK is concerned with cap sword and dagger skills and 5/5 STR merits I sit at 357 ATK in TP gear (WS set puts me at 391) (a 76 taru RDM so it will be higher at 80) with food I can get to just under400 ATK, with bard and cor buffs, I sit in the area of about 450 ATK on average.

That is simply from my skill the small amount of +ATK from gear, and my LOL STR. This is jut as easy to hit as the haste.
As for ACC I get
10 from rings, 7 from neck, 2 from my range, 5 from blau, 7 from ASA pants, and 10 from /DNC +15 from composure. For a total of +56 ACC. Again with skill and dex this puts me at around 355 ACC pre food, 394 post food for an ACC rate just over 85% vs colibri. (I have yet to test on anything in abyssea but will do so once I reach cap, that way I can make an accurate reading of what gear is needed to hit at 85% without losing much on haste.)

So while it requires a little study, the ease of making a respectable DD build (that is close to most other single hand DD's) is relatively easy. Most if not all DD should be in this area, if not beyond it. Especially with the ease of some of the new DD gear, that RDM is left off.

Now that being said, if anyone, under performs against me, while I melee, and still help with haste's refreshes' and cure's then there is something seriously wrong. If anyone under performs against me, when I am just acting as a DD (ie. no additional support outside personal buffs) then there is still something wrong.

A good way to see if all your DD's are functioning is to put a RDM in there, if they finish ahead of some DD (especially against 2 handers) then you know who to either kick, or not invite again.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Abyssea Experiences

@Itaz: How normal people argue:

Bob: Point.
Alice: Counter-point.

How you argue:

Bob: Point.
Itazura: Player--------------Total-DPS---M.Acc-%---WS.Avg--Notes-------------------------------------------------------------

[Romyro]

Re: Abyssea Experiences

HA ><. Hilarious