Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

[Ziero]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

There are *two* main factors in gaining exp: exp per kill, and kills per hour (which takes into account fight time + downtime). The former exerts much less influence because of the current exp tables, not because of some immutable law of nature.

Actually, as I said before, there is only one factor to gaining Exp, and that's kill speed. Because regardless of how high or low the exp is on one mob, if you can contiually chain them then the exp on that single kill doesn't matter.

Do you happen to have a video of a level 20 party getting chain #100? I bet you don't.

Lower level parties can *kill* a 100 exp mob, sure. What they can't do is kill it in 30 seconds or less (even though, obviously, level 20-something mobs have far less HP than level 80-something ones).

TP burns don't need chain 100 to be TP burns, nor do they need chain 100 to blow away the Exp of a "traditional" party. A TP burn is an exp party with no tank, where melees use TP at 100%, and where T-VT mobs in high abundunce are the best target. So I don't need to get a chain 100 to have a TP burn at 20, consistent Chain 4 and 5 with no real downtime works fine for me.

Which doesn't matter, because their weakness is even bigger than ...*snip*... solo a T colibri, and then die to a DC of some other mob families, even if they eat food on the latter.

Any mob can be killed easily without food when it's T-VT. The only difference is that Colibri have low HP so they die faster. And the only reason why they're not mana-burned to hell and back is because of their Mimicry, because otherwise every Blm in town would be soloing them with no effort. And DC mobs stopped being hard to solo a long time ago.

True only in the sense that the second Amnesia wears off is the second the fight ends as 3 simultaneous WS rip the imp apart. It's still shorter than a fight against a real mob of comparable level. And some imps won't even use it, and die even faster. Most important JAs can easily be used before the imp gains TP.

Have you ever tried to use a traditional party against IT Imps? If so, go do it and watch it fail. Then take a TP burn of averagely equiped melees against an IT Imp, guess what, it'll crash and burn too. It's when they drop down to T to VT levels (starting to see a trend?) that they become burnable.

Amnesia is annoying. It is not dangerous ...*snip*... under this system and would never get a bounty, or constantly have a negative bounty if it were possible.)

Fomor certainly aren't dangerous, Dancing Chains is just as annoying as Amnesia if not less so. Hell if anything, Fox Fire and Grim Halo are the attacks that kill people. And Mortal ray is only dangerous if your tank sucks. Mow Dow, Backswish and the fact that they're Mnk Mobs are why Taurus are dangerous. And ANY party stupid enough to try and exp on Cactuars(why would anyone want to exp on these?) and Tonberry(seriously, Tonberrys? Are you even thinking when you suggest this?) are going to get the crap kicked out of them. Those mobs are bad targets for everyone to kill. But then again you do seem to be ignoring the fact that people would TP burns Pots, Golems, Weapons, Birds, Dhamels, Crabs, Crawlers (and I'm intentionally leaving out Bones, another popular burn target, just to humor you) and other mobs long before ToAU came out. Even if the "Rare Mob" bonus was put in place, there are certain things that people would not exp on, and ya know what, even before ToAU people did not target those mobs for Exp.

If they weren't weak, fast repops wouldn't be an advantage; if their base exp value reflected their actual lack of difficulty, the sanction percentage bonus wouldn't be enough to make up the difference.

All mobs are weak when they start conning T-VT, it shifts the advantage to players dramatically at that point. I have had plenty of times, in older areas, in non TP burns where the only reason why we couldn't keep killing was lack of mobs. This ranges from Sahagin at 30 in Yuhtunga to Crabs at 55 in Kuftal to Dhamels at 60+ in Bibiki. You can kill any mob fast when they're T-VT

ToAU trolls, lamias, and qutrub repop just as fast as ToAU mamool ja and colibris, don't they? And they certainly are all subject to the same Sanction advantages. If mob family weakness doesn't matter as you say, why aren't all those monsters burned just as often?

Bad camps? Long Pulls? Blood and Magic aggro everywhere? I mean Trolls and Lamia aren't "hard" mobs either. I've exped off Trolls when we would run out of birds and Crawlers and they didn't put up much of a fight. Perhaps you can explain if people are avoiding "hard" mobs like the plague then why do they burn freaking Wyverns.

That's not what I said - even if it's true that plds make more exp in a zone where your exp primarily comes from damage (kind of implausible), I'm just saying it's no *worse* for DDs to have to campaign than for plds, and that even if anyone ever actually did seek for days, Campaign guarantees that nobody will have to do that ever again no matter what happens to the rest of the exp system. (But then I also point out that meleeburns aren't being destroyed under any proposed system, and that DDs could find party slots even in traditional parties, both of which you ignore completely.)

And you're ignoring the fact that I said that if they could buff traditional parties to the point of balance with TP burns it wouldn't be a bad thing, as long as they didn't nerf TP burns, which people are suggesting.

Bull. People do them because they *work*, not necessarily because they *like* them. The proof is all over this thread, these boards and the game in general. Lots of people bitch about them while still participating because the rewards are just too big to pass up (or to expect 5 others to pass up, so even if you wanted to do something different you probably couldn't.)

And people constantly bitched about traditional exp pts. Seriously, you're holding the opinions of one internet forum up against a widely used practice by everyone who plays this game.

None of which you can participate in at level 1. (And almost all of which DDs are also highly required for, as I'm sure you know.)

Exp is not just "one small facet" of the game, it is the gateway to *all* other content in the game. Additionally it probably predominates most players' total time played.

Anyone who spends the majority of their time Exping is either doing it wrong or really enjoys exping. Though it is something everyone must do, it is not something everyone has to spend the majority of their time doing. Especially when there are so many other events and missions and battles and such that one can fully explore every aspect of their job. Even before TP burns, many many many people hated to Exp.

Yes, I remember numerous people leveling...*snip*...work quite well in a traditional party, as low level exp confirms.)

...then your nostalgia is screwing with your memories. Which would explain a lot. People did not want Thfs, Drgs, Whms(outside of specific mobs) and Smns back in the day, hell even Mnk and Drks were "second string" DDs. Plds were second to Nins in terms of tanking and Rdms were invited for refresh and haste and people would not pt without either them or a Brd. Drks were only wanted 61+ when they got spinning slash, so they could sub /thf and close light (which is where lolthf comes from btw). Back then it was a Tank, two support, two compatible melee and a Blm, or no pt and 10k an hour was incredible exp.

Then people started burning, specifically Wars, Nins, Mnks, Rngs and Blm, all of whom needing Rdm and Brd, and everyone else was left to the wayside. In terms of both invites and exp gain. And Blm didn't get screwed out of Exp pts, it was the fact that they started abandoning melee PTs in favor of far more efficient burn pts. Every Blm at the time had (|Burn|)(|Party|) in their search comment, and wouldn't take a traditional pt. And luck has nothing to do with their soloability, SE gave them their IT, fast repoping, weak-to-magic mobs, they're called Flans. But even before that many Blm could solo exp faster then traditional parties could.

WAR, MNK, NIN, BRD, RDM ...*snip*...except possibly in enjoyability.

Actually Whm and Smn won big time due to /Sch, now they can have their MP efficencey without needing a Rdm or Brd. And I see plenty of Rngs burning right along side the War, Mnk, Nin, Sam, Drk, Drg, Blu, Thf, Brd, Rdm, Cor, Sch and Dnc. Infact, as discussed earlier in this very thread, the only jobs "screwed over" by TP burns are Plds who can't adapt for Exp, Blm and possibly Pup because no one knows just what in they hell they can do other then people who actually play pup.

And who cares about them, right? Why should they have a game that they can enjoy? Clearly, whatever's best for the DDs should be what everyone is forced to do whether they like it or not (if they want a competitive exp/hr rate). That's your whole argument, isn't it? You like tp burns so make sure the rdms and brds can't go anywhere else without gimping their exp, and screw the jobs that don't fit into tp burns at all?

Wow, do you not read? I hate all exp pting. I avoid it as much as I possibly can. Both TP burn and traditional parties. But seeing as you ignore the fact that most jobs can TP burn, you must not be paying attention. And I specifically said in my last post that if you can boost traditional parties to the level of TP burns without nerfing TP burns like many people in this thread suggested then it's good for everyone. But hey, ignoring comments and making things up seems to be a good way to argue on the internet, just look at OMG's post.

*snip because it's not worth repeating*

Don't care what HNMLS's want, I play with my friends. Hell, if you read my comments you would see that I do solo often (infact, those comments were in direct response to YOU) and that I prefer to do campaign. But I love how you call everyone else "princesses" yet you're the one doting on how needed you are endgame. BTW, people like you are the reason I don't care about endgame stuff with strangers.

Though go on and keep pretending I said anything about having to force anyone to do things the way "melees" want when it's *everyone involved in the exp pt including Brd and Rdms* who are gaining Exp by the fist load. But then again, you'd probably prefer the days when Brd, Rdm and Rng were the only jobs that could be "princesses"

[Sevv]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

No offence intended but your point wasn't well phrased.

Tho is it ever?

[Saren]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

I don't really enjoy tp burns, but they are effective. I didn't really enjoy the "old" style either, exp is not the fun part for me I enjoy the events and bringing a new job into endgame. Exp is just the work we have to put in to cap out our jobs, people don't enjoy farming but they do it for gil. Thief is far better then say warrior for farming, but we shouldn't nerf thief because warrior isn't as effective right?

I agree in part, I don't really enjoy exp that much either and I'm not actually advocating TP burn be nerfed at all, merits are enough of a time sink even at 30k an hour. TH isn’t the same thing as exp, farming isn't compulsory, exp is: and besides, if SE found a way to make farming more fun/interesting/less monotonous, would you complain?

I like the bounty idea because it seems like a sensible way to encourage some variety without hurting TP burn as a tactic because it’s a clever tactic that does require some skill on behalf of all the members to do it well. Variety of setups means that it's more likely for more jobs to be included and people are going to get to play their jobs in a wider range of ways with a greater variety of other jobs. I don't have a problem with TP burns as TP burns, what rankles me about them is that they are the only way to hit 25+k/hour when I believe there are other ways to make exp that require as much skill, effort, organization and concentration but don’t give rewards in the same league as a TP burn.

Variety also means players will tend to be better players earlier. How many people hit 75, join an endgame shell and struggle to adjust for a while not so much because they are learning the new mobs, the event quirks or working in a larger group but because they have been playing a very narrow range of how their job can function for a very long time and haven't had any practice at things like working in a setting with one tank, prioritizing status removals correctly, pulling out SATA quickly and reliably, mitigating their damage and watching their hate when the mobs can actually hurt them, holding hate as a tank, playing with different subjobs, healing pld correctly, how essential barspells can be etc.

My point was misunderstood

No offence intended but your point wasn't well phrased.

[Sevv]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

Sevv, if everything was going hunky-dory for your PLD, NIN and melee jobs' invite rate at 75 - why did you level BRD?

Humor me.

You think I leveled brd to merit? Seriously, I don't merit on brd unless I need a buffer on my brd lol. I leveled bard to help my linkshell in endgame fights. I merit on my ridill warrior, when I actually decide to merit.

Is BG any different? Is Alla any different? Is KI any different? All those forums come up with some wacky ideas that would throw off game balance.

Usually, the complaints here at least take balance into consideration. Usually, not always.

No here is much different then Alla or KI threads really, the difference on the BG threads is they actually do the events that they want to change. Believe me there is just as many idiots there as well. No one takes the real balance into understanding they want their way to be #1 period.

Couldn't get the quote to work properly but you get the idea.

I just wanted to back up Karinya on this point, TP burns are popular yes but that doesn't mean they are enjoyed. Almost every person I know with rdm or whm leveled hates going to TP burn parties on it. A friend of mine was restarting the game, got rdm to 75 first and couldn't get war 75 fast enough so he could switch to getting his merits (for rdm as well as war) on warrior.

Good TP burns (the ones where the melees can bounce hate well and the puller is fast) are boring, the bad TP burns (the ones where the DDs can't bounce hate because of unequal damage or being stupid) are stressful and tiring or impossible depending on how bad it is. TP burns for most rdms and whms are seen as a chore and the only reason we take it is because 4 hours of TP burn beats 8 hours of something else or a lot more than that if you are talking campaign.

I don't really enjoy tp burns, but they are effective. I didn't really enjoy the "old" style either, exp is not the fun part for me I enjoy the events and bringing a new job into endgame. Exp is just the work we have to put in to cap out our jobs, people don't enjoy farming but they do it for gil. Thief is far better then say warrior for farming, but we shouldn't nerf thief because warrior isn't as effective right?

One great DD isn't an asset to a merit party, you need 2 minimum but ideally 3 or 4. TP burn style curing only works well and safely when a good percentage of the curing (~80%+ I would say) is done through regens and curagas. From a curing point of view I would rather have 4 average DDs than 3 average DDs and one great one.

If one DD is doing enough damage to be tanking a lot more than their fair share (or is doing a lot of stupid things to pull hate for no real damage or reason) the healers mp goes to hell. More damage is occurring and you can’t cure it very efficiently because you are forced to rely more heavily on cures because the damage is happening too fast for regen to heal the DD to safety/full before they are damaged again and curaga is only really efficientwhen you are hitting for maximum on 3+ people (especially with curaga 2 which is generally the most useful scale of curaga for exp at least in the merit parties I've been in) and you can't use it as much if most of the damage is going on one person.

I hate to admit it but it's probably more important for the damage to be fairly evenly spread with a whm healer than with a rdm healer but even so, if you have one DD effectively tanking a burn party your rdm is going to be struggling for mp.

My point was misunderstood, I didn't mean one great dd who overshadows to the point they are tanking. Because in most cases you can balance that in the fact of having your gimp player 1st voke and eventually thru ws or dot the hate will shift. Not like most of these mobs can't be easily tanked /nin by someone who understands haste gear and how to cast shadows.

[Saren]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

But the fact that TP burns have become so dominant and common shows just how popular they are.

Couldn't get the quote to work properly but you get the idea.

I just wanted to back up Karinya on this point, TP burns are popular yes but that doesn't mean they are enjoyed. Almost every person I know with rdm or whm leveled hates going to TP burn parties on it. A friend of mine was restarting the game, got rdm to 75 first and couldn't get war 75 fast enough so he could switch to getting his merits (for rdm as well as war) on warrior.

Good TP burns (the ones where the melees can bounce hate well and the puller is fast) are boring, the bad TP burns (the ones where the DDs can't bounce hate because of unequal damage or being stupid) are stressful and tiring or impossible depending on how bad it is. TP burns for most rdms and whms are seen as a chore and the only reason we take it is because 4 hours of TP burn beats 8 hours of something else or a lot more than that if you are talking campaign.

with enough brds or just 1 great melee can carry a group of well gimps thru meripo

One great DD isn't an asset to a merit party, you need 2 minimum but ideally 3 or 4. TP burn style curing only works well and safely when a good percentage of the curing (~80%+ I would say) is done through regens and curagas. From a curing point of view I would rather have 4 average DDs than 3 average DDs and one great one.

If one DD is doing enough damage to be tanking a lot more than their fair share (or is doing a lot of stupid things to pull hate for no real damage or reason) the healers mp goes to hell. More damage is occurring and you can’t cure it very efficiently because you are forced to rely more heavily on cures because the damage is happening too fast for regen to heal the DD to safety/full before they are damaged again and curaga is only really efficientwhen you are hitting for maximum on 3+ people (especially with curaga 2 which is generally the most useful scale of curaga for exp at least in the merit parties I've been in) and you can't use it as much if most of the damage is going on one person.

I hate to admit it but it's probably more important for the damage to be fairly evenly spread with a whm healer than with a rdm healer but even so, if you have one DD effectively tanking a burn party your rdm is going to be struggling for mp.

Edit: Actually I like the Bounty idea, it would make some of those real pain in the ass mobs worth trying and anything that encourages a variety of setups is going to be a good thing especially if it means that most people levelling fight more than colibri and imps with a TP burn setup 54-75.

Edit2: My 4am attempt at phrasing failed

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

We should not submit to what Omgwtfbbqkitten says, or on that note a good portion of this board.

Sevv, if everything was going hunky-dory for your PLD, NIN and melee jobs' invite rate at 75 - why did you level BRD?

Humor me.

Everyone here talks balance but how many of you work or have worked on games. You complain and bitch about this or that and how it would be better the way you would like it, which very much tosses the balance in the opposite direction

Is BG any different? Is Alla any different? Is KI any different? All those forums come up with some wacky ideas that would throw off game balance.

Usually, the complaints here at least take balance into consideration. Usually, not always.

[Sevv]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

We should not submit to what Omgwtfbbqkitten says, or on that note a good portion of this board. Everyone here talks balance but how many of you work or have worked on games. You complain and bitch about this or that and how it would be better the way you would like it, which very much tosses the balance in the opposite direction.

On the melee burn dies horribly to IT mobs, I laughed really hard as well. I have melee burned thru IT's a few times for great exp (ofc top of the line melees), the only thing about melee burns is with enough brds or just 1 great melee can carry a group of well gimps thru meripo. That is the issue, that gimp melees can melee burn as well.

Want to fix normal parties, instead of the rare game and other pathetic half thought up ideas, simply raise the exp cap on IT. Go from 200 to 250 or slightly higher for a no chain, wouldn't put it exactly on melee burns (the good ones) but it would put you over the edge of gimp burns, which is really where it should be.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

Except for a few support players who miss the "fun" of traditional pts and some Plds who just can't adapt for Exp.

Man, what an ego on you. I can play that game.

So we should just submit to whatever the melees demand, eh? You should keep in mind that no PTs need your DD specifically, no HNMLS or endgame LS needs your DD specifically and in every mission in the game your DD class is a dime a dozen. Go look at any endgame shell recruitment wishlist and see if DDs are at the top of thier needs. Its usually never.

Most people who like to act like a merit party princess are just another melee grunt battling it out for the small pool of gear at endgame. Whether an even it done or not is not always determined by how many melees you have on-hand. Its usually determined by how many mages/tanks you have on hand.

And if a mage/support/tank does not find a use, much less a proper use of thier job, in an endgame LS, they'll gladly keep shopping around for a better shell because they can. Can your THF do that?

BRD joins and endgame LS and melees start drooling right away. Never fails and those BRDs get treated like tools and don't think the majority of them like you for it. Having been both BRD and COR, its usually the PLD, RNGs and BLMs that come looking for me on COR. In general, they've been far more polite and don't hound me for merits. Additionally, my job just happens to be superior for manaburns and pretty damn sweet for TP burn as well, so if some melee does think I'm thier merit tool, heh, they can think again, I can party on whatever I'm in the mood for.

And, not surprisingly, my SCH can say the same. I love the freedom. Oh and my RDM and BST can go solo stuff while your melee is forced to choose between hoping for a BRD to appear or doing campaign. My RNG? Yeah, its pretty much cemented as needed for some endgame functions. Unless your melee can Wide Scan, Shadowbind or do Sidewinder.

So yeah, don't think you're doing support players any favors by inviting them to a TP burn, we can get what we want if we really try - can you say the same?

[Karinya]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

Yes, IT mobs are always bad for melees, not saying that Exp burns can work on every monster regardless of lvl. But I am saying that a TP burn will always out exp even the best traditonal party because killspeed is the number one factor in gaining exp.

And I'm saying that the only reason that is true is because exp per kill is so flat. If IT mobs gave 3 times more exp per kill it wouldn't matter that it took twice as long to kill them. But instead they give only 1.5 times more exp, so they're a poor choice of target.

There are *two* main factors in gaining exp: exp per kill, and kills per hour (which takes into account fight time + downtime). The former exerts much less influence because of the current exp tables, not because of some immutable law of nature.

Actually with a full pt with almost any setup, 100 exp mobs aren't challenging in the least. They still die just as fast at 20, 40 and 60 as they do at 75.

Do you happen to have a video of a level 20 party getting chain #100? I bet you don't.

Lower level parties can *kill* a 100 exp mob, sure. What they can't do is kill it in 30 seconds or less (even though, obviously, level 20-something mobs have far less HP than level 80-something ones).

Actually, no, both Colibri and Imps screw with Melees too. It's not that Colibri are "so weak" melee can kill them without food, it's that they have no choice but to not eat food.

Which doesn't matter, because their weakness is even bigger than the effect of not eating food. That's why people *with no food* can kill a colibri faster than the same people, *with food*, can kill, say, a mamool ja of the same level. (Mamool ja aren't exactly among the game's hardest mobs themselves, but they might rank about average.)

Combine that with their ability to erase TP...which can't be blocked by shadows, and their attack which strips shadows on a target, and that's a mob that screws with Melee as much as it does mages.

Ah, *that* explains why melee-heavy and mage-heavy parties go after them just as often!
Seriously, this whole argument doesn't pass basic common sense. You don't need food *or* shadows to beat the crap out of them, that's how weak they are to melee. And that's why they're overwhelmingly popular targets for melee-heavy parties, the same way bunches of monks go after skeletons and bunches of rangers go after flies or birds. (Well, if there actually were any bunches of rangers anymore.)

It's also why practically anyone - if they're a melee - can solo a T colibri, and then die to a DC of some other mob families, even if they eat food on the latter.

And if you consider Amnesia a "minor annoyance" then you're horriblly downplaying the fact that it prevents all JAs and WS for the entire fight.

True only in the sense that the second Amnesia wears off is the second the fight ends as 3 simultaneous WS rip the imp apart. It's still shorter than a fight against a real mob of comparable level. And some imps won't even use it, and die even faster. Most important JAs can easily be used before the imp gains TP.

Amnesia is annoying. It is not dangerous. Would you *really* rather be up against Mortal Ray, Dancing Chains, 1000 Needles or Throat Stab? I seriously doubt it. *Those* are nasty TP moves. Abrasive Tantara, Feather Tickle and Snatch Morsel are not. Compare Feather Tickle to either Carnal Nightmare *or* Light of Penance, which are both clearly superior to it in two separate and independent ways. FT is a joke.

Which, again, is why people exp on imps and colibri and not on taurus, fomor, cactuars, or tonberries. (This is why the rare mob bounty idea is so beautiful - mob family imbalances would be *self-correcting* because players would go after the nasty mobs only when the bounties made them worth it. It effectively lets players bid on how badass they think a mob is, by being willing to fight it at a given bounty level or not. Imps and colibri, of course, would score very low under this system and would never get a bounty, or constantly have a negative bounty if it were possible.)

Actually, I'm not contradicting anything, you're just not grasping the concept.

I'm grasping your concept just fine - and disagreeing with it.

It's not only that these mobs are weak that make them the best target for TP burns, it's also the fact that they repop faster then mobs anywhere else in game and that you also gain an Exp bonus on top of killing them, which inflates ones Exp gained per kill.

If they weren't weak, fast repops wouldn't be an advantage; if their base exp value reflected their actual lack of difficulty, the sanction percentage bonus wouldn't be enough to make up the difference.

ToAU trolls, lamias, and qutrub repop just as fast as ToAU mamool ja and colibris, don't they? And they certainly are all subject to the same Sanction advantages. If mob family weakness doesn't matter as you say, why aren't all those monsters burned just as often?

First off, I love how you say it would be completely ok that DDs would have to campaign their Exp while it's bad that Plds do...especially since Plds make more on average during those things.

That's not what I said - even if it's true that plds make more exp in a zone where your exp primarily comes from damage (kind of implausible), I'm just saying it's no *worse* for DDs to have to campaign than for plds, and that even if anyone ever actually did seek for days, Campaign guarantees that nobody will have to do that ever again no matter what happens to the rest of the exp system. (But then I also point out that meleeburns aren't being destroyed under any proposed system, and that DDs could find party slots even in traditional parties, both of which you ignore completely.)

But the fact that TP burns have become so dominant and common shows just how popular they are.

Bull. People do them because they *work*, not necessarily because they *like* them. The proof is all over this thread, these boards and the game in general. Lots of people bitch about them while still participating because the rewards are just too big to pass up (or to expect 5 others to pass up, so even if you wanted to do something different you probably couldn't.)

If there were as many people as you claim who hate burn pts so much, why is it so hard to find and party with them? I can throw up my Flag and find a TP burn much faster then I could find a traditional party, isn't that proof enough?

If both party types were equally rewarded and you *still* found TP burns easier... actually that still wouldn't prove it, because of population issues. But it'd be a hell of a lot closer than jumping to the conclusion that anyone who wants more exp/hr must *like* the style of play that gets the most exp/hr. That's as dumb as saying people must like to farm, or they wouldn't do it so much.

And I don't know about you, but I see plenty of tanks out there, as they're still highly required for everything else in this game.

None of which you can participate in at level 1. (And almost all of which DDs are also highly required for, as I'm sure you know.)

It's amazing how often people ignore the fact that Exping is one small and annoying facet of this game.

Exp is not just "one small facet" of the game, it is the gateway to *all* other content in the game. Additionally it probably predominates most players' total time played.

But even with traditional Exp there were jobs that people would not invite.

Wrong again. (Well, unless you count the jobs that didn't exist then. I admit that they didn't get any invites.)

Not because of overpopulation of the class and not even because they were bad jobs, but because they weren't the best. Remember loldrg? How about lolthf?

Yes, I remember numerous people leveling those jobs to 75 before ToAU. Reputation notwithstanding those jobs were quite effective, and quite able to get into or start parties. BLMs are lucky they're damn strong soloers, because otherwise they'd be hosed 1000x worse than any RoZ era melee ever was (instead of only 100x worse - BLMs are nerfed in campaign too, so they don't even have that as a safety net.)

BTW, "lolthf" was AFTER ToAU and hate-bouncing parties destroyed SATA. In the RoZ/CoP era thfs were about as wanted as any other DD (namely, you wanted a few, but generally not as many as were clogging up the server), except in bones parties for obvious reasons.

People always have and always will want the best and now more jobs fit into that category.

Fewer (again, not counting the jobs that didn't exist - most of which work quite well in a traditional party, as low level exp confirms.)
WAR, MNK, NIN, BRD, RDM were highly wanted and still are (MNK a little less so than before). DRG, DRK, SAM gained popularity (although a WAR or NIN will still get invited first). WHM, BLM, PLD, SMN lost big time. RNG are now so rare it's hard to even estimate how wanted they are; BST didn't usually deign to party and still don't; THF are now the DD you take if you can't find a better one, which I think is a poor substitute for their prior unique role which their job was actually designed to do, but you may disagree.

Losers outnumber winners, if you're counting by jobs. If you're counting by players, I dunno - a lot of people merit on their war or brd, if they have more than one job, for obvious reasons. Since merits are transferable that doesn't necessarily hurt them, except possibly in enjoyability.

Except for a few support players who miss the "fun" of traditional pts and some Plds who just can't adapt for Exp.

And who cares about them, right? Why should they have a game that they can enjoy? Clearly, whatever's best for the DDs should be what everyone is forced to do whether they like it or not (if they want a competitive exp/hr rate). That's your whole argument, isn't it? You like tp burns so make sure the rdms and brds can't go anywhere else without gimping their exp, and screw the jobs that don't fit into tp burns at all?

[Ziero]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

Wrong. Meleeburns die horribly to IT mobs, because they *can't take the hits* without a real tank. Try meleeburning in Uleguerand and you'll see what I mean.

But Uleguerand gives crappy exp/hr, you say? Exactly my point. Tougher mobs give more exp per kill -but not *much* more, so they can't compete with rapidly massacring wimps on an exp/hr basis. That's what it's in SE's power to change.

Yes, IT mobs are always bad for melees, not saying that Exp burns can work on every monster regardless of lvl. But I am saying that a TP burn will always out exp even the best traditonal party because killspeed is the number one factor in gaining exp.

Furthermore, this is unique to the highest levels - at lower levels, you *do* get better exp out of tougher mobs, enough that it's worth bringing a tank and then fighting things that will (a) hurt you bad enough to cause major downtime, or (b) kill someone, if they spend the whole fight beating on non-tanks. This is why meleeburns haven't taken over the level 30 exp scene, in spite of people trying to copy high-level tactics - they just don't work that well at that level. Letting goblin smithies beat on mnks and drks is not a winning way to make more exp.

Wrong. Even before endgame lvls you can "melee"-burn T-VT mobs. The only problem is long repops and mob shortages. But it's still faster exp, when you have mobs all to yourself, then a traditional party to non-stop pull chainmaking mobs. And I've done this as low as the Dunes. It's not as effective as ToAU camps, but then again ToAU camps were made for burns.

Compare how much of a fight a 100 exp mob will give a level 20, 40 and 60 party, with how much of a fight a 100 exp mob will give a level 75+merits party. Most games get harder as you progress further into the game and get to higher levels - why does FFXI get easier at the end instead?

Actually with a full pt with almost any setup, 100 exp mobs aren't challenging in the least. They still die just as fast at 20, 40 and 60 as they do at 75. It's the IT+ mobs that put up a fight, but even with a Pld tank those are retarded to go after because it means you slow your killing speed to a crawl thus slowing your exp.

I think you mean "made to screw mages". Colibri are incredibly weak to melees, more so than practically any other mob - you can beat them up *without* food faster than you can beat up most other mobs *with* food. Imps are highly magic resistant, nearly unsilenceable, and have AoE silence, as well as casting spells right back at a manaburn - which is precisely why they're practically un-manaburnable. But aside from the minor annoyance of amnesia (which isn't even a TP reset - you get to save it for later), they, too, take huge damage from melee and have hardly any HP, as well as weak to negligible tp moves.

Actually, no, both Colibri and Imps screw with Melees too. It's not that Colibri are "so weak" melee can kill them without food, it's that they have no choice but to not eat food. Combine that with their ability to erase TP...which can't be blocked by shadows, and their attack which strips shadows on a target, and that's a mob that screws with Melee as much as it does mages. And if you consider Amnesia a "minor annoyance" then you're horriblly downplaying the fact that it prevents all JAs and WS for the entire fight. And FYI, they're called TP Burns because you're supposed to use your TP.

Their low HP, the only good thing about those mobs, is the reason why people kill them. But only when they con T-VT.

(And try fighting mobs with high attack and major burst damage without a tank - pugils, spiders, scorpions.) Even in ToAU areas, some mobs are meleeburned much more than others - meleeburns walk right past flies to pull imps and doomed, precisely because flies are more dangerous.

I've burned Pugs...in QUFIM of all places, spiders in QSC and the Deserts, hell I solo'd the ToAU ones. All mobs are burnable once they get to T-VT lvls. Oh, and I've also burned Flies IN ToAU between Doomed and Imp pulls. It was crowded that day.

First of all - you're contradicting yourself. Low HP mobs with fast repops *are* the target monsters for burns - and without them, it doesn't work. Anyway, I think you're overstating the effectiveness of pre-ToAU meleeburning. In ideal conditions it made maybe 20% more exp than a traditional party - and even then, only after 74; without the brokenness of subbed utsu:ni it died horribly. In ToAU you can do it at *60* - on the right mobs

Meleeburning in KRT only worked when the melees were monks, because of the damage bonus vs. bones. In sky you needed the zone to yourself to do better than a traditional pt.

Actually, I'm not contradicting anything, you're just not grasping the concept. It's not only that these mobs are weak that make them the best target for TP burns, it's also the fact that they repop faster then mobs anywhere else in game and that you also gain an Exp bonus on top of killing them, which inflates ones Exp gained per kill.

In otherwords, these things being so burnable was not a mistake, but an intentional addition to allow more people to burn more things. Because as you pointed out, the two best zones for burning before (which made far more then 20% exp on average compared to a normal party) were reserved for either a single job or horrendously overcamped to the point of inefficiancy. Now this combat tactic can be utilized by almost any job just as effectively, and moreso, in far more areas.

You also "gain" exp for not being killed, and for having less downtime. Both of which you do by taking less damage - unless you're fighting monsters so weak they can't even seriously hurt a berserk monk. Are you really forgetting why tanks exist in the first place (and why they still *do* exist for the first 50-some levels)?

Fyi, I've pted without nins and plds pre-50 many many times for exceptional exp. It helps if you don't go after IT++ btw.

Adjusting the most abused mobs would have substantial effect, especially before level 74 - but overall, I agree. Level of mob needs to have a much stronger influence on exp value (for high level parties - it's about right up to 60 or so) in order for killing fewer strong mobs to equal killing many wimpy ones. (Meleeburns don't fight strong mobs, because they would take more damage than their lack of healers could handle, and/or have deaths which cause major downtime.)

An exaggeration - but anyway, this wouldn't happen unless you abolished meleeburns entirely. If you only made them about the same exp/hr as traditional pts, then melees *and* tanks/healers could *both* find parties. (The introduction of five new jobs which can all heal and/or support would have something to say about this situation anyway.)

Unless you dramatically boosted up the exp gained for killing an IT(like 400+ per kill) mob or completely overhauled the way Exp is gained, you can't balance out the difference. But to be honest, even if that were done I wouldn't complain one way as it would be boosting something to make even more people happy without destroying something the majority finds incredibly useful.

Paladins today don't lfg for weeks on end - they campaign instead. This doesn't mean it's not a problem. (Of course, even if meleeburns *were* completely abolished, DDs could still go campaign, now that it exists.)

I think you're wrong about how many people like the current "more DDs = more win" state of high level exp (on this thread it appears to just be you and Sevv, although maybe the lurkers really do support you in email). We could take a poll though. 3 options: parties with mostly DDs should make better exp, parties with tanks and healers should make better exp, both types of parties should make about the same exp. Which option do you think would win?

Obviously some DDs are happy. But nearly every support job is bored out of its skull and tanks practically don't even exist anymore. And jobs that formerly relied on party cooperation to perform their role (thf, sam) - don't have that role anymore. Now they just hit things. Some are satisfied with that if it gives them monster exp/hr, some are not.

First off, I love how you say it would be completely ok that DDs would have to campaign their Exp while it's bad that Plds do...especially since Plds make more on average during those things.

Secondly, most people who play this game by far don't visit here. The average poster here has a different way of thinking from the average player in game from my experiance. But the fact that TP burns have become so dominant and common shows just how popular they are. If there were as many people as you claim who hate burn pts so much, why is it so hard to find and party with them? I can throw up my Flag and find a TP burn much faster then I could find a traditional party, isn't that proof enough?

And I don't know about you, but I see plenty of tanks out there, as they're still highly required for everything else in this game. It's amazing how often people ignore the fact that Exping is one small and annoying facet of this game. As a thf and a war I'm bored out of my mind in tradtional parties, especially as Thf when I have to rely on idiots (long before ToAU came out) to even be halfway effective at my job. Now, I don't have to worry about them, I just have to be good at what I do best. And I have never met a Sam who didn't love burning.

Exactly. I don't get why you think this is a bad thing though - a system where a quarter or more of the jobs are *completely unwanted* - not just overpopulated, but actively drags on the exp of any party foolish enough to invite one - is obviously broken. Competing for no spots is worse than competing for few spots.

But even with traditional Exp there were jobs that people would not invite. Not because of overpopulation of the class and not even because they were bad jobs, but because they weren't the best. Remember loldrg? How about lolthf? People always have and always will want the best and now more jobs fit into that category.

Introducing meleeburns wasn't necessarily a bad idea to relieve the overpopulation of DD jobs before ToAU (although I would have introduced the new jobs first, and waited to see if that solved the problem before doing anything more) - making them drastically more effective than traditional parties instead of about equally effective *was* a bad idea.

ToAU didn't "introduce" anything, they existed, succeeded and they thrived long before the first Colibri spawned. ToAU just gave everyone easier access to them and made them far more efficiant. They were always drastically more effective then traditional parties, but back then they were a highly selective way to exp that only few jobs could participate in. ToAU opened the doors to TP burns for everyone and everyone flooded through them without a second thought. Except for a few support players who miss the "fun" of traditional pts and some Plds who just can't adapt for Exp.

[Karinya]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

Apparently YOU don't understand that as long as Exp is gained on a per-kil basis, TP burns will ALWAYS have far better Exp gain then the standard tank/2 support/3 DD pt.

Wrong. Meleeburns die horribly to IT mobs, because they *can't take the hits* without a real tank. Try meleeburning in Uleguerand and you'll see what I mean.

But Uleguerand gives crappy exp/hr, you say? Exactly my point. Tougher mobs give more exp per kill - but not *much* more, so they can't compete with rapidly massacring wimps on an exp/hr basis. That's what it's in SE's power to change.

Furthermore, this is unique to the highest levels - at lower levels, you *do* get better exp out of tougher mobs, enough that it's worth bringing a tank and then fighting things that will (a) hurt you bad enough to cause major downtime, or (b) kill someone, if they spend the whole fight beating on non-tanks. This is why meleeburns haven't taken over the level 30 exp scene, in spite of people trying to copy high-level tactics - they just don't work that well at that level. Letting goblin smithies beat on mnks and drks is not a winning way to make more exp.

There are no new exp tables after level 60, and that's why mobs that are pathetically weak relative to a level 70+ party still give exp as if they were fairly challenging (while mobs that actually *are* challenging are hard to find, and give only slightly more exp/kill if you do find them.)

Compare how much of a fight a 100 exp mob will give a level 20, 40 and 60 party, with how much of a fight a 100 exp mob will give a level 75+merits party. Most games get harder as you progress further into the game and get to higher levels - why does FFXI get easier at the end instead?

Even before Colibri and Imps, two mobs specifically made to screw the hell out of melees, burn pts were *the* best Exp you could get.

I think you mean "made to screw mages". Colibri are incredibly weak to melees, more so than practically any other mob - you can beat them up *without* food faster than you can beat up most other mobs *with* food. Imps are highly magic resistant, nearly unsilenceable, and have AoE silence, as well as casting spells right back at a manaburn - which is precisely why they're practically un-manaburnable. But aside from the minor annoyance of amnesia (which isn't even a TP reset - you get to save it for later), they, too, take huge damage from melee and have hardly any HP, as well as weak to negligible tp moves.

If you want a mob that really screws melees, fight fomor, slimes, ghosts... there *are* anti-melee mobs, you can identify them by the fact that nobody meleeburns them. (And try fighting mobs with high attack and major burst damage without a tank - pugils, spiders, scorpions.) Even in ToAU areas, some mobs are meleeburned much more than others - meleeburns walk right past flies to pull imps and doomed, precisely because flies are more dangerous.

It's not just the target monsters that make Burn Pts work so well in ToAU it's the combination of low hp mobs with fast repops and an exp bonus that create not only infinite pulls, but artificially increased EXP on them. But even besides that, Burn pts can work on almost any mob, anywhere. It was a combat tactic used in KRT, Sky, Sea and Bibiki long before ToAU came out and it was always far more efficiant then traditional parties.

First of all - you're contradicting yourself. Low HP mobs with fast repops *are* the target monsters for burns - and without them, it doesn't work. Anyway, I think you're overstating the effectiveness of pre-ToAU meleeburning. In ideal conditions it made maybe 20% more exp than a traditional party - and even then, only after 74; without the brokenness of subbed utsu:ni it died horribly. In ToAU you can do it at *60* - on the right mobs.

Meleeburning in KRT only worked when the melees were monks, because of the damage bonus vs. bones. In sky you needed the zone to yourself to do better than a traditional pt.

Utsu: ni and the fact that merits don't make you higher level and adjust your exp (but do let you fight more effectively) have a lot to do with the success of meleeburns, and those factors did take effect before ToAU; but they weren't (and still aren't) so much more effective that nobody would join a traditional party - except in ToAU areas.

Because you only gain exp for killing, and gain more exp for killing fast, having a tank play defensively only slows things down.

You also "gain" exp for not being killed, and for having less downtime. Both of which you do by taking less damage - unless you're fighting monsters so weak they can't even seriously hurt a berserk monk. Are you really forgetting why tanks exist in the first place (and why they still *do* exist for the first 50-some levels)?

It will take more then a few slight changes to the exp value, and physical buffing of some mobs to make burning equal to, or even close to, traditional party exp gain.

Adjusting the most abused mobs would have substantial effect, especially before level 74 - but overall, I agree. Level of mob needs to have a much stronger influence on exp value (for high level parties - it's about right up to 60 or so) in order for killing fewer strong mobs to equal killing many wimpy ones. (Meleeburns don't fight strong mobs, because they would take more damage than their lack of healers could handle, and/or have deaths which cause major downtime.)

But by doing that you'd force people to go back to the days where you couldn't even exp without a tank and two specific healers while forcing many melee jobs to go back to lfg for weeks on end.

An exaggeration - but anyway, this wouldn't happen unless you abolished meleeburns entirely. If you only made them about the same exp/hr as traditional pts, then melees *and* tanks/healers could *both* find parties. (The introduction of five new jobs which can all heal and/or support would have something to say about this situation anyway.)

Paladins today don't lfg for weeks on end - they campaign instead. This doesn't mean it's not a problem. (Of course, even if meleeburns *were* completely abolished, DDs could still go campaign, now that it exists.)

Nerfing something that the vast majority finds a helpful and useful boon to the game just so a very vocal, very small minority can squeeze more 'fun' out of the game...which is something that can already be done...is very narrowminded thinking.

I think you're wrong about how many people like the current "more DDs = more win" state of high level exp (on this thread it appears to just be you and Sevv, although maybe the lurkers really do support you in email). We could take a poll though. 3 options: parties with mostly DDs should make better exp, parties with tanks and healers should make better exp, both types of parties should make about the same exp. Which option do you think would win?

Obviously some DDs are happy. But nearly every support job is bored out of its skull and tanks practically don't even exist anymore. And jobs that formerly relied on party cooperation to perform their role (thf, sam) - don't have that role anymore. Now they just hit things. Some are satisfied with that if it gives them monster exp/hr, some are not.

If you want to 'balance' the exp gains between traditional and burn pts, then you have to completely rework the way monsters grant exp rewards.

Exactly. I don't get why you think this is a bad thing though - a system where a quarter or more of the jobs are *completely unwanted* - not just overpopulated, but actively drags on the exp of any party foolish enough to invite one - is obviously broken. Competing for no spots is worse than competing for few spots.

Introducing meleeburns wasn't necessarily a bad idea to relieve the overpopulation of DD jobs before ToAU (although I would have introduced the new jobs first, and waited to see if that solved the problem before doing anything more) - making them drastically more effective than traditional parties instead of about equally effective *was* a bad idea.

[Sevv]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

Do you have proof that SE thought those mobs would be harder, or is that just speculation?

The later, harder no... just take more time.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

The bonuses in sanction reflect S-E's misconception that ToaU mobs would actually be considered harder than normal.

That simple fact is something often forgotten in this thread, by the way.

Not only that, many of those bonuses, sans EXP, are applicable in WotG Zones. And depending which nation hooks in the freelances, there are additional bonuses to choose from. WotG mobs are generally more difficult than ToA ones.

Well, unless you want to count the Lamia, Qutrub or Trolls of ToA, most of which cannot actually be meleeburned because, you know, they're actually tough.

[Murphie]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

Do you have proof that SE thought those mobs would be harder, or is that just speculation?

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

But mobs in ToAU were made to be burned, and the bonuses to Sanction reflect that.

The bonuses in sanction reflect S-E's misconception that ToaU mobs would actually be considered harder than normal.

That simple fact is something often forgotten in this thread, by the way.